What do you think of injecting joints in competition horses

[egontoast]

I would try legend IV first because sometimes that is effective and does not have the known risks of IA shots.

One of my horses was very comfortable on IV legend for years. It’s what you would want for yourself, your grandmother and your horse.

Comfort and the ability to be active as long as reasonably possible. As you get older and stiffer this makes more sense.

I’m not talking about pushing the horse mercilously but helping the horse to be more comfortable and stay active which is beneficial for their health and comfort.

[Coreene]

I do Legend IV and Adequan IM every 10 weeks, and MSM, B-L and Force Flex HA in the feed every day. Not super $$ and it makes all the difference in the world.

[blackhorse6]

For me, stifle injections are a necessity when needed… I have to wonder how many of the horses that are being injected have had or do have OCD’s? Mine had small ones removed as a 31/2 yr old. As long as I keep him turned out for a decent part of the day and keep him in work, he seems fine… Also MSM and monthly adequan work wonders. I do know that he will need maintenance injections periodically but I certainly won’t do it “just to do it”…

[PaddyUK]

I just cannot agree with injections as maintanence.

I have 6 steroid injections into my ankle joints and tendons every 3 months.

I get an injected LA and it’s all done under ultra sound - each injection has a dye in it so next time the site is easy to locate.

I tell you what it F**king hurts. Bad.

I have no choice without them I could not walk or even move my leg from the knee down (no feeling in Achillies or the tendons which control foot movement and into the joints to help reduce swelling from partial removal of tib base and OA).

Why subject a horse to this as a maintenance programme.

What is wrong with correct work, feed and supplements.

I could not beleive you inject horses tails to keep them still.

This to me, as a Brit, is just a step too far.

Paddy

[ThreeFigs]

I believe the tail injection stuff is done on WP horses, don’t know of any other discipline where that is common. Those tail injections can go frighteningly bad. The stuff we do to horses for the sake of appearances is astounding, and sadly, every discipline has its skeletons.

Glad things are not that way in GB, wish it were so here.

I’m all for injecting if the horse needs it (for instance, my mare had spavined, and the vet recommended it for her), but agree with previous posters. It’s not for tweaking the extended trot just a little bigger, it’s for treating a problem that has no solution through good riding and regular maintenance.

[PaddyUK]

[QUOTE=Beasmom;4582440]
I believe the tail injection stuff is done on WP horses, don’t know of any other discipline where that is common. Those tail injections can go frighteningly bad. The stuff we do to horses for the sake of appearances is astounding, and sadly, every discipline has its skeletons.

Glad things are not that way in GB, wish it were so here.

I’m all for injecting if the horse needs it (for instance, my mare had spavined, and the vet recommended it for her), but agree with previous posters. It’s not for tweaking the extended trot just a little bigger, it’s for treating a problem that has no solution through good riding and regular maintenance.[/QUOTE]

Beasmom, as I said before for spavins I have no problem, we have an exCounty standarsd working cob, that has to have injections as he is not fully fused - in fact we joke that Vet could do my injections while he does the cob. Save me many £s and a 100 mile round trip. Unfortunately, he does not carry a strong enough concentration - damn.

I know, we brits are seen a backwards in our approach sometimes. But maintainace injected steroids - cos that is what they are, is too much.

Does no one do rest these days or is it more important to win a class - and some of your HJ courses are so low, they are clear round level here - god, I’m showing my age.

Paddy

[tryhardeventer]

No No, No!

I just about fell of my chair in horror when I opened this thread. I worked for a racehorse trainer who was fond of injecting knee joints. ALL of those horses eventually broke down and were useless as the joint is destroyed if multiple injections are given. Please reconsider: turn your horses out more, give supplements, warm up correctly, check that your farrier is doing a good job, choose the surfaces you ride on carefully, and stay away from quick fixes like this.

[quietann]

[QUOTE=PaddyUK;4581721]
GLS is right it’s just not done as a matter of course unless a horse is in need e.g. arthritis or spavins. Then it would not compete.

I have to say it seems a very none UK thing to think of joint injections as maintenance. I know my Vet would refuse, just so I could carry on competing. He’d probably drag me out by the hair and give me a bloody good lecture.

So shoot down us Brits, but that’s the way it is here.

Paddy[/QUOTE]

Not a bad thing… but what happens to the horse once it’s declared unrideable? For many of us, we can afford ONE horse and if there is something that can help keep that ONE horse rideable (and showable, if that’s one’s thing), it puts off having to make a very hard decision. A lot of arthritic horses do better with a job, whether it’s light riding, very low-level competing, or whatever, and if joint injections make that possible, why not do it? I’ve had the pleasure of riding a couple of them and they were definitely happier with the attention and interesting sights.

One was an old TB mare who slipped under a fence and destroyed a hock joint capsule at age 8. After a full year of stall rest she had joint injections in both hocks (the other got stiff from compensating for the bad one) twice a year for the rest of her life, until they stopped working when she was nearly 25. She was put down at 26, after a year and a half of twice dailyt bute (which did not give her ulcers or other problems, luckily.) She had 24/7 turnout, oral supplements, and was never worked really hard, though she occasionally needed a Bute after some silliness (in our case, freaking out about some goats and having a full spinning tantrum in the middle of the road, ending with sitting down in a snowbank! She was SORE after that, silly girl.) She was a good trail horse in company with other horses, she taught a lot of up-downers how to post the trot, loved to take one or two tiny jumps as part of a ride, and she showed a couple of times in schooling shows, including taking me through Intro A and B at age 24. The only thing she didn’t do, that she would have been good at, is make babies; she would have been a fabulous choice to breed sport ponies as she had very nice conformation and was small and from small lines. Does this looks like a horse who isn’t enjoying being ridden?

(Sorry to run on, but I really do miss her!)

[PaddyUK]

[QUOTE=quietann;4582572]
Not a bad thing… but what happens to the horse once it’s declared unrideable? For many of us, we can afford ONE horse and if there is something that can help keep that ONE horse rideable (and showable, if that’s one’s thing), it puts off having to make a very hard decision. A lot of arthritic horses do better with a job, whether it’s light riding, very low-level competing, or whatever. I’ve had the pleasure of riding a couple of them and they were definitely happier with the attention and interesting sights.

One was an old TB mare who slipped under a fence and destroyed a hock joint capsule at age 8. After a full year of stall rest she had joint injections in both hocks (the other got stiff from compensating for the bad one) twice a year for the rest of her life, until they stopped working when she was nearly 25. She was put down at 26. She had 24/7 turnout, oral supplements, and was never worked really hard, though she occasionally needed a Bute after some silliness (in our case, freaking out about some goats and having a full spinning tantrum in the middle of the road, ending with sitting down in a snowbank! She was SORE after that, silly girl.) She was a good trail horse in company with other horses, she taught a lot of up-downers how to post the trot, loved to take one or two tiny jumps as part of a ride, and she showed a couple of times in schooling shows, including taking me through Intro A and B at age 24. The only thing she didn’t do, that she would have been good at, is make babies; she would have been a fabulous choice to breed sport ponies as she was small and from small lines. Does this looks like a horse who isn’t enjoying being ridden?

(Sorry to run on, but I really do miss her!)[/QUOTE]

Know how you feel, lost my beautiful dressage boy (Pants) died 12 months ago - he had hunted, jumped and evented, without a single injection for 20 years. Unfortunately septic shock killed him in 5 days. Thank god I still have the Grey Git and TurboToby. I kept all three till Pants died

However, over here horse insurance is pretty much wholesale.

We have loss of use, so your old TB would have been freezemarked LOU and you would have been able to keep her to breed, assuming she was sound and of quality breed.

We also insure for vets bills - not everyone, but if like me you have an expensive dressage nag you pay the premium for unlimited vet fees - Mine for the Grey Git and Turbo is $140 a month - that includes £10 million public liability, loss, theft, death, removal etc.

It is normal here to insure even a shitland pony for death/theft/public liability.

Do you not do that in the US?

Here it is a factor we take into account in our horse keeping budget.

Paddy

[ec412]

[QUOTE=alicen;4581672]
I was just going to ask about human joint injections. Do they work? What are long range consequences? Are they desperate measures prior to joint replacements?[/QUOTE]

I had ongoing tendenitis for a few years- tried several options. Had the joint injected (one time) that was about 10 years ago. Been great ever since- Highly recommend it!

For horses- I too would try other options but would not hesitate if horse was showing signs of discomfort such as resistance.

[asterix]

Paddy, we do have insurance as you describe over here, but joint injections (not pursuant to an acute injury, but for the cumulative effects of arthritis) are considered “maintenance” and are explicitly not covered by most insurance policies.

My horse’s hocks looked pretty nasty on the xrays when I bought him at 9. 3 years later the xrays had not changed, due, I think to changes in management (better shoeing and 24/7 turnout, for starters). He does get injected once in a while (so far, 3 times in 5 years) when he starts to feel very uncomfortable despite all my best efforts.

This is not so that I can continue to compete – it is so that he can continue to be in regular work in a comfortable way, which I believe is in his best interests overall.

[Tegan]

Didn’t read all the replies, but…

I have no problem with regular (ie 2x/year) joint injections on a horse that needs it. If the horse is young, then I think that might need a personal evaluation, but for middle aged-older horses, it doesn’t bother me.

It all comes with a limit though. If a horse needs hocks, stifles, SI joints, etc etc etc at age 12, that’s pushing it. If a horse at age 8 needs hocks done once a year… not ideal, but I can accept it.

[PaddyUK]

[QUOTE=asterix;4582662]
Paddy, we do have insurance as you describe over here, but joint injections (not pursuant to an acute injury, but for the cumulative effects of arthritis) are considered “maintenance” and are explicitly not covered by most insurance policies.

My horse’s hocks looked pretty nasty on the xrays when I bought him at 9. 3 years later the xrays had not changed, due, I think to changes in management (better shoeing and 24/7 turnout, for starters). He does get injected once in a while (so far, 3 times in 5 years) when he starts to feel very uncomfortable despite all my best efforts.

This is not so that I can continue to compete – it is so that he can continue to be in regular work in a comfortable way, which I believe is in his best interests overall.[/QUOTE]

Do your Vets not do a fit for use comment? Or a full five stage vetting?

A horse with hocks that bad, would not have passed the fit for xxxxxx use over here unless it was just hacking.

I’ll try to scan one up - The Grey Gits if i can.

Paddy

[asterix]

When I vetted my horse my vet, who is a very experienced (FEI level) sport horse vet, did have to submit a statement to the insurance company, and we did a very thorough vetting. The insurance company has happily insured my horse for eventing through preliminary without any mention of his hocks; of course, they don’t cover joint injections, so perhaps they just don’t care.

I guess the standards are quite different. My vet told me, when we saw my horse’s xrays at the pre-purchase, that the lower joint of the hock was a place where we had lots of management options going forward, and that he did not see this as a serious obstacle to my buying the horse for use as an amateur eventer through preliminary.

The horse was terrifically sound and did lovely athletic work in all three phases for 4 years; he has recently been rehabbing an unrelated soft tissue injury. In those four years I did do joint supplements, legend/adequan when I could afford it, and as I said, had his hocks injected twice (the third time was during his most recent rehab).

Certainly in the US this would not be considered an undue amount of maintenance for a horse in his early teens running at this level. I would have definitely preferred a horse with better xrays and without the need to monitor and maintain, but he is the nicest horse you could possibly imagine for an amateur like me, and I wasn’t going to turn him down.

[cute_lil_fancy_pants]

Why is no one discussing IRAP?

[lstevenson]

@acerdrum;4581479

There is obviously some risk involved with injections into the joints - is this a risk you would be willing to take as a part of maintenance?

With a good vet that risk is almost nill. I wouldn’t hesitate to do it when neccessary, as it’s the gold standard treatment for joint issues. Adequan and Legend don’t do very much when you have a real problem IME.

[SpicyPRE]

injections ARE NOT a training tool

there is a vet in my area that got in HUGE trouble for doing joint injections without a proper diagnosis. Joint injections are very appropriate treatment for certain conditions, however, they should never be done “just because”. Find out if there is an underlying problem first, then explore ALL options.

[quietann]

[QUOTE=cute_lil_fancy_pants_pony;4582750]
Why is no one discussing IRAP?[/QUOTE]

Because some of us have no clue what IRAP is???

[quietann]

[QUOTE=PaddyUK;4582616]

We have loss of use, so your old TB would have been freezemarked LOU and you would have been able to keep her to breed, assuming she was sound and of quality breed.

We also insure for vets bills - not everyone, but if like me you have an expensive dressage nag you pay the premium for unlimited vet fees - Mine for the Grey Git and Turbo is $140 a month - that includes £10 million public liability, loss, theft, death, removal etc.
…[/QUOTE]

As folks have said, horse insurance is common in the US, but it works very differently. It’s more for “catastrophic care” than maintenance. E.g. if my mare had an acute injury to a hock and needed surgery, that would be covered. Maintenance of her stiff hocks isn’t covered.

I think (someone correct me if I am wrong) that Loss of Use in the United States often means that the horse becomes the property of the insurance company, and usually the insurance company will run it through an auction to recoup some of its losses. For an LOU horse, that could well mean a one way trip to the slaughterhouse. (I’ve heard, also, of LOU cases where the insurance company required the horse to be euthanized even though it could be maintained comfortably, just not used for its original purpose.)

Liability is usually covered entirely separately, often under a homeowner’s policy or a general liability policy.

(The old mare in question was quite well bred and was being trained for Small Conformation Hunters when she had her accident. Truly a lovely horse, though a bit hot for a (show-ring) hunter. Most owners would have euthanized her, or tried to get foals from her, but her owners just kept her out of sentiment; they were wealthy enough to do so. I believe she was bred, as a maiden, at age 17 and the breeding did not take, which is just as well.)

[Cowgirl]

IRAP is a fairly new treatment option where a chemical is harvested through collection and processing of blood or fat (depending on which company you use) from your horse. The chemical fights inflamation and helps to repair the cartilage. Depending on how much of this chemical your horse’s cells make, you can get from one or two to seven shots from it. Here is better information:

http://www.theequinecenter.com/IRAP.htm

However, the cost is prohibitive for most–I think IRAP is around $2k? And it is not a permanent fix. The next time your horse is injured or the disease process starts again, you have to do it again.