What documentation do you require from a seller when buying a horse?

[Fiona_785]

I’m trying a couple of horses out of state next week. I found them on my own and both are located at established facilities (one is H/J and the other is at an eventing place.) The horse are cheap- not high dollar price tag horses. They are project TBs that will be kept at my trainer’s farm if I chose to buy one.

Thing is, I’ve heard stories about horses being sold by people who don’t own them to unsuspecting buyers and it’s become a mess. Granted, the cases I’ve heard have been fancy, high-dollar horses, not OTTBs sold in the four-figure range but still… I feel like I should expect some proof of ownership right? Or am I being paranoid?

Ive googled the sellers and nothing bad has come up. The barns seem ok, I’ll know more when I go there myself. The barns know the history of the horses but one might not have papers- the BM showing her to me is going to find out. If she doesn’t, would that be a deal breaker for you?

What do you guys like to see document-wise before you buy a horse? Should something be explicitly stated on the bill-of-sale as well? I can obviously ask my trainer this stuff too but I like to hear what everyone else thinks as well since I’m not using my trainer to find the horse. I’ve personally known the owner of every horse I’ve owned thus far so going out of state is a different experience for me. (I’m from CT and will
be going to NY and PA.)

TIA!

[Fleurdelis]

I’m not saying I’d recommend this but I’ve bought two horses with no real paperwork. Granted I don’t show and these were project/trail horses. The first had a handwritten bill of sale and I paid by check. She’s a registered paint and came with her papers. She’s my heart and soul. The second was a TB whose papers didn’t get to me until well after I’d taken him on. They were misplaced. At first I thought I’d been had but my vet happens to work on the track where he’d raced and knew of him. Eventually papers were found and sent to me. I’ve been lucky to come across two honest sellers but I also know that this is probably the case because less money was at stake. I don’t know if this helps you but thought I’d share. Trust your instincts. Best of luck finding your new partner.

[PrincessPonies]

My paint came with her APHA papers with the owner transfer portion signed, current up to date coggins, and we had a standard bill of sale that my trainer had copies of since she used them. I would try going on Facebook or other social media as sometimes things come up there tha aren’t on a google search. If you want you can always try to get there tattoo numbers since they’re OTTBs and look them up that way. But in general I wouldn’t be too worried from everything you’ve said.
On the other hand my mini came from a local rescue that got her from an auction. I have no papers on her what so ever. All we know is she’d been through three different auctions and as far as anyone knows there are no papers. I have a hand written adoption paper from them and that’s it. Never had an issue doing anything with her.

[Scribbler]

On another recent COTH thread it was said by a number of folks that it’s common for retired OTTB to be sold on without their Jockey Club registration papers because that way, they can never be raced again. You can find their pegidree by the tattoo but once the Jockey Club papers are gone they can’t be replaced.

Proof of ownership also becomes separated from papers for all the horses whose papers aren’t transfered through all the owners, or for horses that are in fact purebred but no one registered them in a timely fashion. This happens with lower end QH a lot, sold as “can be registered.”

So not having JC papers on a horse isn’t a deal breaker.

[tinah]

I like vet records and a bill of sale. If the coggins isn’t in the name of the person selling the horse. . . Well then.

[Highflyer]

A bill of sale and a Coggins test. JC papers aren’t proof of ownership, and they CAN be replaced unless they were returned to the Jockey Club, but it means tracking down and getting notarized signatures from the last owner of record, which can be a pain in the ass.

[cherham]

If the horse is registered I always contact that registry first and confirm ownership on record. I always also ask for the resident Vet records and the ability to speak to the sellers Vet (at my cost of course). All medical records are sent to my own Vet for interpretation. If they hedge at that idea I walk away… of course that does not mean that their own Vet will necessarily tell me the entire truth about a horse for sale either but its a good idea to try and I have yet to find a Vet not totally honest with me either.

[fordtraktor]

Contacting the registry often means nothing. I’ve bought MANY horses where the new owner just didn’t bother to transfer the ownership with AQHA, for example. You get the form with the last recorded owner’s signature to send in if you want to change it. I haven’t bothered to transfer my last 2 registered horses to myself because I don’t do breed shows with them. I definitely own them!

For a TB project off the track I wouldn’t expect it to have any real paperwork other than a Coggins. If the previous track owner gave the new barn the Coggins, it might well not be in the right name.

I would take a Bill of Sale form and get it signed. Beyond that I wouldn’t have any real expectations for paperwork on a track flip kind of horse.

[WildLittleWren]

Coggins (which are proof of ownership in my state), a signed/dated/clearly written bill of sale, and proof of vaccinations.

[BeeHoney]

Make sure that you use a bill of sale that includes a detailed description of the horse: name, age, height, gender, markings, whorls/ scars/brands, tattoo number, registration #, etc. There also should be a place to write in the detailed information of both the buyer and the seller–names, addresses, phone numbers, email addresses, etc.

When I shop for lower price horses I often bring 2 copies of my own BOS with me and it has blanks where that information can be filled in–just in case the seller does not have an acceptable document ready. Be sure that BOTH parties sign the document and that both parties have copies. Take a photo on your cell phone if it comes down to it. When money actually changes hands, I usually add a line on the contract stating that $XXXX was given or received and both parties can initial.

If you bring your own BOS, you can also add a clause where the seller warrants that they are the owner of the horse in question. If the seller isn’t the owner, I think it is reasonable to insist that the actual owner of the horse sign the paperwork before completing the transaction. Personally I also find it acceptable (for a lower priced sale) if the agent simply warrants that they are the authorized representative for the owner and lists the owners name and information as well. Keeping the true owner’s info a secret would not be acceptable.

Before you go look at a horse, I think it is useful to clarify what paperwork they have or don’t have on the horse. If it is an OTTB, I would definitely ask about the papers. In this day and age, a TB can be resold as officially retired from racing, so there is no need for people to withhold papers. If someone doesn’t have the papers, I would request the horse’s Jockey Club registered name and you can easily do some quick internet research to confirm the horse’s age and some of its history. If none of that is available, when you vet the horse have the veterinarian confirm the tattoo number. Having some link to the horse’s identity is important since there are many competition opportunities and awards open to OTTBs. If you ever plan to re-sell an OTTB, having the papers can be important to some buyers.

For other breed registries, I would simply ask about papers and let the seller know that it is important to you so that they have time to find and get together the paperwork. Many people forget about registration papers, and once the sale has gone through there is little motivation for people to find them. The papers themselves might not be important to you, but they are proof of the horse’s age and origin, which I think can be useful down the road. Registration papers don’t prove ownership, though.

Typically, the seller should provide a current coggins test. Double check that the horse and owner are identified correctly on the coggins and that the age matches up. Admittedly, I’ve simply gotten my Coggins on occasion when buying a horse at a lower price. I think it is also nice if they can provide a vet receipt with date for vaccinations. Again, when buying in a lower price range, you might not get that.

Remember, if you are purchasing out of state, you may need certain health papers to cross state lines. Also, be aware of what health documentation your boarding barn will require to accept your new horse.

[Lord_Helpus]

This is not legal advice. Readers should talk to their attorney to confirm the effect and intent of the following.

Have a paragraph that says:

Seller warrants she has full and lawful title to said horse and that there are no liens and/or encumbrances against the horse. Seller further agrees to indemnify buyer if there should be any claim against the horse by any third party. Such indemnification includes, but is not limited to money spent on defending the true and lawful ownership. If the third party wins the contested ownership action, the Seller agrees to reimburse Buyer for all money spent by Buyer on the horse.

Seller further warrants that she has given the Buyer the horse's Jockey Club registration and/or other documents which identify the horse.

[xxWarmbloodHunterxx]

I bought a 4-figure horse with a detailed Bill of Sale and that’s it. I did some research on the seller (Googling, asking other trainers in the area, etc), and she came recommended by a person who I’d been riding with for 2+ years. If he ever had papers, I don’t have them. I used “The Honest Horse Dealer” Contract that I found online:
https://www.horsetradertricks.com/uploads/5/2/8/8/5288645/horse_buyer_contract_a.pdf

So far I haven’t had any issues. If he were a more expensive horse I probably would’ve expected more. I’m in a state where Coggins is not required.

[Scribbler]

We don’t do Coggins in my region so that didn’t occur to me, but very good point.

With an OTTB project horse I wouldn’t be that worried about a rather casual chain of ownership transfer because I’ve seen riding trainers just drive up to the backstretch and load up horses that aren’t working out for the race trainer, who typically isn’t the owner. Presumably there’s a bill of sale, but really the track folk just want them gone.

If I was doing online research with the tattoo or name it would also be very interesting to see the race history if any and whether there is any suggestion of an injury in there. Of course lots of OTTB come off the track having trained but not raced.

[dani0303]

With the last horse I bought I got

• Bill of Sale
• Registry paperwork
• Vet records
• Brand inspection (CO proof of ownership form)
• Current coggins

I bought her in state so I didn’t need a health cert but I always insist on that if they’re crossing state lines.

[findeight]

Haven’t bought a young horse in 30 years, always buy broke and going so have the finished product in front of me. Really don’t require much of a seller. Do expect a current coggins (required for transporting in my area). Want any papers they are representing the horse has. That’s not a demand, that’s expecting to get what they advertised they had. If the horse suits me, don’t care if it doesn’t have them but if the seller claimed it was registered in their ad, they better have them or a quick check with the registry verify it’s on their books even if it’s not under current ownership. Interested in age here so I don’t get yet another 2 or more years older then it’s supposed to be. Often this is an innocent mistake but when you spend a healthy 5 figures on an 8 year old that turns out to be a coming 11 year old 3 months later when the papers turn up? It sticked 2" shorter too, which was suspected at the first test ride. Would have bought it anyway, prefect match but still…

Unless it’s a tattooed TB, then I expect the tattoo to match age and identity claims. Otherwise, expect sellers to stick to " believed to be" or “QH” without stating its papered and eligible to show Breed or produce registration eligible offspring. Don’t even like the " eligible for registration" on anything older then 3. But if I like that horse and nit buying the breed or do breed shows, , I’ll buy it without papers, just don’t like the “puffing” and truth stretching in many ads…,just sell the horse you know you have, not what you think people want.

Vet records? Not needed, seller may not even have any if they recently acquired the horse. Will have my vet look at it as soon as it gets home if it’s cheap, PPE before it leaves sellers property if it’s pricey. That said, if it’s really cheap, just put it in the trailer. But I’ve bought more then a couple over the years.

In OPs case, assume they are using their trainer to help here? Still doubt there is a folder of all vet records, especially an older horse that’s changed hands several times that will be getting a good PPE as a condition of sale. Do expect disclosure of known issues so they can be managed.

Regardless if it’s 1500 or healthy 5 figures or see the vet or not, the Bill of Sale language MUST include that seller is the legal owner of the horse with the right to sell it. Even if it goes through an agent, need that language. Buying horses is a crap shoot at best but that is something you need and can protect you if the seller has no legal right to sell. And that happens. Death, divorce, billing disputes, evading court ordered siezures or just shady dealings, you don’t want to get caught up in it…you may lose the horse but you won’t be charged with anything.

[Fiona_785]

Thank you everyone for the replies! Super helpful.

The horse isn’t a track purchase. He’s been off for at least a few years and has done some schooling shows in hunters and eq. They don’t have his papers but he is tattooed. Tattoo is hard to read, although someone might be able to figure it out I suppose. I’ve been going through the trainer (who teaches H/J lessons at the riding center) and I’ve met the owner who owns a bunch of horses because the farm is an old family business.

Trainer seems nice and normal. It’s not a professional show barn, more of a family barn with multiple disciplines and trail rides. It’s different than what I’m used to because I’ve always found my horses via word-of-mouth and a trainer. But the horse is nice and not a massive investment, but I just wish his history wasn’t so vague to me especially not being from the area. I can get vet records and will obviously do a PPE if I decide to purchase and Coggins will be pulled on Monday.

Anyway, that’s a lot of rambling. Fingers crossed. Horse shopping is always so stressful!

[findeight]

Buying one from people you know well and having plenty of time to observe it being ridden multiple time lessens the risks considerably.

You can post your guess at the tattoo over on the Racing, SHB or Eventing forums along with a description, like bay gelding around 7-8 years, star and snip, white sock on left hind and somebody will take a shot at decifering the tattoo and guessing at what the blanks might be. It’s a good idea to try to do that before you buy, COTH has some pretty good sleuths capable of putting together partial tattoos with descriptions and approximate age to get a pretty good guess at who the horse is and his race record. They enjoy it.

[atr]

Depending on where you are located, there may be a brand inspection certificate on the horse, which would be proof that the person named thereon as the owner actually did own the horse.

However, even though it is theoretically a legal requirement around here, I would suspect that most horses don’t have one unless they have been shipped out of state at some point.

[Fiona_785]

@atr

Depending on where you are located, there may be a brand inspection certificate on the horse, which would be proof that the person named thereon as the owner actually did own the horse.

However, even though it is theoretically a legal requirement around here, I would suspect that most horses don’t have one unless they have been shipped out of state at some point.

He’s a TB so he’s not branded.

[Fiona_785]

@findeight

You can post your guess at the tattoo over on the Racing, SHB or Eventing forums along with a description, like bay gelding around 7-8 years, star and snip, white sock on left hind and somebody will take a shot at decifering the tattoo and guessing at what the blanks might be. It’s a good idea to try to do that before you buy, COTH has some pretty good sleuths capable of putting together partial tattoos with descriptions and approximate age to get a pretty good guess at who the horse is and his race record. They enjoy it.

Oh, this is great! I’ll take a picture of the tattoo as well. I have seen people on the OTTB Connect FB group do this with varying degrees of success. I bet COTHers would be even better at this. Thanks!