I’m trying to determine your situation so I can possibly offer a realistic solution; could you clarify a couple of things?
Have never ridden in one, so have no comment on the bit specifically.
However, in a B. Traurig clinic I attended, out of 20ish riders, the only rider that was made to change bits due to his concerns on severity was the rider in a segunda. Take that for what it’s worth.
In all likelihood BT did not feel that rider was sufficiently educated for use of that bit or the horse was overbitted for the planned exercises and what he wanted the pair to learn. It’s not the bit, it’s the education level of the horse and rider combo.
Better clinicians see so many horses and riders they can see enough clues to pinpoint skill and training levels in about a minute just seeing them walking around. There are many clues in expression, carriage and physical build (top line). See enough horses over enough time, you can pretty accurately predict performance. Ask any experienced judge, they can tell if they are interested just seeing one walk into the ring.
It is a Segunda because the port’s inside profile is round and curves inward to a point, instead of forming a right angle or less, at the connections with the bars. …
Possibly, but I doubt it in this case. Just did a clinic with the same clinician, and he was strongly critical of the sharp points on this and some other bits, regardless of rider skill level.
Of course not everything will go in a snaffle, but I do think it’s often possible to find a stronger bit that isn’t sharp.
You clearly don’t know what a Segunda bit is, don’t you?
It has NO tongue relief, quite the contrary.
And it’s not more fancy nor more expensive.
Its quite harsh action is directly on the tongue and on the bars. It digs in there.
There’s a reason why it’s used on « heavy » horses… because it makes them quickly back off the contact.
but if the basics aren’t there in horse or rider, (…) a bit won’t solve anything.
This I agree with.
Help me understand the action of the bit in the OP’s first post please. I look at it and see a double jointed D ring snaffle with a big centre section. With the D sides, I can’t see how the centre piece wouldn’t lie flat on the tongue, and the two joints provide the same sort of action as any other double jointed snaffle (i.e. draping over the tongue versus a nutcracker action of a single joint.). It is wider than the middle part of a conventional double jointed snaffle though; does that change the action dramatically? What I would think is that if anything, the big middle section would prevent a horse from putting their tongue over the bit. Yes, there are the points on the inside, but I’m not sure I can see how they wold come in contact with anything really, lying on the tongue?
If this bit had full cheek sides and was held in a certain position by the keepers, I can see it having a dramatically different action for sure, but I guess I’m missing something given the D-ring cheeks?
I’m not saying it is or is not right for the OP’s horse, just trying to understand the bit’s reputation as a train stopper. I can’t remember if I have one in my collection or not - if I do, I’m going to have to dig it out to play with!
I know. What a rude, disrespectful comment. If I was her mother, no more lessons would be paid for by me. OP you sound very immature and entitled. This horse my be “your heart horse”, but it is not your horse and you have no say in any tack this horse wears. Asking questions is fine, but these questions need to be asked of your trainer or assistant. Either earn your own money and pay for lessons yourself , or quit your complaining and be happy you get to ride at all.
Well, with the joints each side of the port, don’t understand how it could “dig into” the tongue, fishback shape or not, or how the port would not offer tongue relief since it does not sit across the tongue but we can agree to disagree on those points.
Its to no big fat snaffle for a WT rider with a neck strap. The horse is going to feel it more but it is no spawn of Satan to be universally condemned.
With no rein pressure the bit lies totally flat. As soon as you touch the reins the half moon piece tends to rotate so it gives the appearance of a port, but the sharper points are touching the tongue.
My A/O hunter quietly goes in a level 2 Myler 90% of the time. If he’s fresh he likes to try to pull me down onto his forehand and then pull me to the next jump. A broken Segunda on those days allows me to sit chilly and he essentially self corrects, he starts to “dive” and then backs off. I’ve been able to stop using it this season as I can now put my leg on when he’s fresh and he’ll move up into the contact instead of pulling me down.
I’m going to hazard a guess that the OPs hands aren’t educated enough to use this bit though.
That’s because you’ve never seen one.
It doesn’t offer tongue relief because the horse doesn’t want to put it’s tongue there to rest, it’s pointy!
Let me send you a youtube video about this bit action in your inbox. Not posting the link here because I don’t want to promote the youtube channel here
I dunno about saying “Find8 has great advice,” [post 18] but the OP already seems to know what she needs to do. “Horses” and “options” are difficult to place in the same sentence, so as far as telling someone they need to “upgrade” their education and go to another barn is just running that person into a brick wall. From her posts, I’m understanding that this OP is stuck for the foreseeable future at this barn.
I think success is more likely if posters here can (continue to help her) find a way to bridge the gap between the trainers’ directives and her periodic reluctance to follow them; to discuss safely and respectfully; and to learn how to grin and bear it until she can find a more sympatico environment. You know, learning what is not good with a horse is as useful as learning what IS good for a horse.
And PS: learning how to ride takes years, years, years, and riding all sorts of horses and riding in-depth with good trainer(s). What percentage of riders really have this opportunity? Not many.
I’m going to hazard a guess most people’s hands aren’t educated enough for this bit…myself included :D. Very bad trainer once had me ride a horse in a double broken segunda pelham. After the first look at it I was like whoa, and after the first ride I said I’m not good enough to use this bit and asked for an alternative.
I would not put a horse in this bit if it goes like you describe in the gag. You need something with a totally different effect. This bit is great for the ones it is great for and pretty much awful for all the rest. I’d try maybe a slow twist, Waterford, or small Pelham if you need something more than your snaffle especially if the both of you need more education on contact.
I have seen trainers tell intermediate students to see saw the mouth, using those words, and it makes me crazy! You really need better trainers!
Very late here, but for those of you who do like this bit for what it seems suited for, which is occasional use when a horse needs a little reminding not to lean on the bit and run out of fences, what is your preferred step down bit that you ride in most of the time?
I recently tried this bit in a horse that is remarkably similar to my leased horse (whose current bitting situation i’m not happy with) and had wonderful results (my hands are generally pretty light, and i felt it enabled me to get the result i needed and then immediately let up, rather than having to fight her) and would like to introduce it with ellie, but would love some suggestions for a good everyday bit to use in a horse that responds well to the segunda rather than using it at all times
I didn’t realize you had responded to my (old, haha) comment but I’ll reply now.
The rider proceeded to get drug by the horse through every exercise with the softer bit. It looked like torture for both of them, honestly - the rider’s arms, and the horse’s mouth. Bottom line - the horse needed some education on what a half halt meant, and enforcement of a half halt if needed.
Every horse and every situation will be different. I very infrequently used a broken segunda on my A/O hunter for two seasons (maybe 20 rides total over two years). We haven’t used it since 2018. In between and ever since he’s gone in a level 2 Myler. He has a small mouth and a large tongue, and likes the port in the Myler. Living out 24/7 also keeps him from getting too fresh.
Other horses may go better in something that they can’t hang on, like a waterford. Or something with a little bite like a slow twist. Obviously the goal is to get them to respond to a half halt with as little bit/hand as possible.
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