What does a Large Dee Segunda Bit do?

[Kara_S]

 The young horse that I am riding came with a french link full cheek snaffle. My trainer then put him in a three ring elevator which I hated. He would go around the ring with his head up (even when I had huge loops in my reins) and any time I tried to take up any contact his mouth would open and he'd go behind the vertical.
 My trainer then was put in the hospital for a few months and the assistant trainer stepped in. I began to only wear the elevator for lessons and then stopped using it all together.
 Skip forward a month or to and my barn is heading up to the Sussex county A show. The assistant trainer asked if I was still using the french link full cheek snaffle for both show and lessons (at this barn each show horse has everyday and show tack) then when she went to go grab another bit from the office she didn't have one. She appeared with a Large Dee Segunda Bit (I think. it looks like the bit in the link below):confused:

https://www.horsetackco.com/large-dee-segunda-bit.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzoWxr-XH3AIVEj0MCh1k2AOBEAQYBCABEgKePvD_BwE )

 Call me ignorant but to me this looks like a rather harsh bit and I'm a little worried seeing as I couldn't find a lot about what it does or when to use it exc. online. If anyone knows how it works, how harsh it is, and when/ how I should be using it I would really appreciate it! thanks:D

[blondewithchrome]

Segundas, just like any bit, are as harsh as the rider makes it. With soft hands, it can be the ‘right’ bit if your guy needs it…but yes, can be a rather harsh bit for a rider that just pulls and hangs on a horses mouth. I showed a heavy, very large jumper in it when we went in the eq ring and couldn’t wear our trusty 3-ring, but it wasn’t due to him being “fast” per se - it was to correct him hanging on my hands. I rode it in maybe 10-12 years ago so I could be misremembering this, but I only showed in it and would usually go for a single jointed pelham first before the segunda because it can be harsh if not needed. I pulled it out on heavy days when I felt like he was just leannnnning on my hands.

IIRC, it works for horses who are heavy or pull/lean due to the pressure caused by the high port - presses on the bars and the roof of the mouth, and even a little on the tongue. I don’t know if it’s the best bit for a horse who is super sensitive to pressure and goes with an open mouth with contact, but hey, every horse is different.

[alibi_18]

If you don’t trust your trainer, or the assistant and if you don’t see good results from the training/teaching you are receiving, please do change trainer.

Each trainer has a plan, if that plan doesn’t suit your needs, your goals or your horse’s needs, there is no point in staying there and paying for something you don’t believe and/or is not working.

It doesn’t have to be the trainer’s, the horse’s or your fault. It is just life.

Find a different trainer asap.

[Kara_S]

@alibi_18

If you don’t trust your trainer, or the assistant and if you don’t see good results from the training/teaching you are receiving, please do change trainer.

Each trainer has a plan, if that plan doesn’t suit your needs, your goals or your horse’s needs, there is no point in staying there and paying for something you don’t believe and/or is not working.

It doesn’t have to be the trainer’s, the horse’s or your fault. It is just life.

Find a different trainer asap.

Funny enough I’ve been wanting to change disciplines and start eventing as i have not been challenged for 4 years! I’m also a firm believer in cross training (like all jumpers must know dressage, and a all horses can benefit from a good gallop) and at the barn i ride at if i ask to take the horse i’m riding to a dressage show ill get looked at like I have 15 heads:lol: The only problems are that A) my mom is my trainers lap dog because we are tight on money and she’s helped me out otherwise i would’ve had to quit riding years ago and B) the horse i’m talking about is my heart horse and i’m the only one who rides him. So i’m afraid that if I leave my trainer will put someone else on him, this wouldn’t be a huge deal except I don’t trust other people to be kind to him (hes extremely sensitive) or to truly take care of him the way I do (i’m like a freak when it comes to making sure he gets stretched, his girth gets done up slowly so he doesn’t have to suck in all at one exc.)

[Kal1]

@Kara S

Funny enough I’ve been wanting to change disciplines and start eventing as i have not been challenged for 4 years! I’m also a firm believer in cross training (like all jumpers must know dressage, and a all horses can benefit from a good gallop) and at the barn i ride at if i ask to take the horse i’m riding to a dressage show ill get looked at like I have 15 heads:lol: The only problems are that A) my mom is my trainers lap dog because we are tight on money and she’s helped me out otherwise i would’ve had to quit riding years ago and B) the horse i’m talking about is my heart horse and i’m the only one who rides him. So i’m afraid that if I leave my trainer will put someone else on him, this wouldn’t be a huge deal except I don’t trust other people to be kind to him (hes extremely sensitive) or to truly take care of him the way I do (i’m like a freak when it comes to making sure he gets stretched, his girth gets done up slowly so he doesn’t have to suck in all at one exc.)

I couldn’t agree more, all riders can benifit from other disciplines, as well as the horses.

As for the bit, I know that as important as it is to have an understanding with your trainer, its not always possible to pick up and leave, especially over something like a bit. I would ask her, maybe proposing a diffrent idea. Was your bit working well? IMO, that bit looks harsh. Look at the edges on it! I would rather use a regular D snaffle or maybe a Pelham. The most important thing is not to put something in your horse’s mouth that you are not comfortable with. Good Luck!

[CHT]

A similar bit was quite popular in my area for a while. As far as can figure, the tongue ends up in the “port” and so the horse cannot use the tongue to protect its bars from the bit (which means the bit will have more bar pressure). I believe the “port” lays along the tongue, and is not pushed up into the palate, and should be rounded to not cause scraping of the palate should the horse move it around with its tongue.

I don’t think that this is a bit that would make me change barns, particularly as it is not your horse. If the horse can go well in this with light contact, then it is a kinder bit than one that requires a heavier hand. Obviously bar pressure is more sharp and less forgiving than tongue or lip pressure, but the pressure will still sit on the lips first, so it should only be with a strong hand that the pressure actually comes down on the bars.

That said, the person telling you to use the bit, should be able to offer you an explanation of how it works. If they cannot, then perhaps they should rethink recommending it.

[Kara_S]

I’ve decided to just not use the broken segunda ( I found its name) seeing as he has been going very lightly on my hand lately. If I get asked why i’m not using it I’ll point out that I did some research and don’t believe I have light enough hands to use it. I thought back on the conversation and the only reason I think she gave it to me is because he was strong at the first show we took him to and she “likes the look of a D ring on hunters” (which Is total BS to me)

In the mean time keep posting bit ideas that are soft but can also help with a horse that gets slightly heavy on the forehand. Thanks once again! without you I probably would have just ridden in it and could have screwed up big time:winkgrin:

[Trekkie]

FYI you can get a D ring with many mouthpieces. A young horse who leans may be leaning because they are still developing balance and strength with a riders weight and new things ie jumping and adjusting the gaits. The French link may be a fine bit but the horse may just do better with more flatwork ie transitions within and between the gaits to help him find his self carriage.

[hoopoe]

Proper flat work ( dressage) will go a lot further than bitting up for teaching a horse self carriage. Most dressage horses go in the most basic snaffle possible. The peanut french link is probably the most popular. I think hunter and jumpers can gain a lot by having dedicated lessons with a dressage trainer

[Kara_S]

@hoopoe

Proper flat work ( dressage) will go a lot further than bitting up for teaching a horse self carriage. Most dressage horses go in the most basic snaffle possible. The peanut french link is probably the most popular. I think hunter and jumpers can gain a lot by having dedicated lessons with a dressage trainer

I would LOVE to have dressage lessons with this horse. But I don’t own him nor does my barn do real dressage. (I asked the assistant trainer and my trainer and they both told me to “engage his hind end and put him in a frame by playing with his mouth” then when he didn’t comply they ended up making me see saw on the reins) I’m trying to convince my parents to let me take other lessons but If my BO finds out she will take me off this horse (who I can’t afford to lose or I may actually quit riding for a while)

[fair_judy]

The segunda, in the words of RWM, is a razor in a monkey’s paw. If a rider is prone to use the awful “wagging” hand so popular itis truly tantamount to torture. If your horse has a mouth configuration which has more prominent ( or pointed) bars it is a nightmare. If this young horse has not had an evaluation by a certified equine dentist , that is the first action I would take. A educated hand can adapt to any bit, but bitting properly is an art. I concur with other comments here… if a person does not have the ability (or inclination) to fully explain the action of a bit and application on the anatomy that bit does not belong in the tack box. I’m out of the ring for over a decade now, but any comments as to whether this bit is even legal in the hunter divisions?

[blondewithchrome]

@fair judy

I’m out of the ring for over a decade now, but any comments as to whether this bit is even legal in the hunter divisions?

Yes, legal - and especially with a D-ring a judge wouldn’t know what the mouthpiece looks like. Illegal bits in the hunter ring include “but are not limited to, three rings, gags (other than the hunter gag), et cetera.”

OP, I agree that training is the best option here. If dressage isn’t in the cards, you can condition and train a horse to build strength and carry himself - lots of transition work, flat work, etc. I like canter to sitting trot to canter, myself.

I realize you’re looking for a bit to help you in the meantime. Try a waterford, had good experience with it for other strong heavy horses. Again, can be harsh if used incorrectly. Dr. Bristol also a good option for leaners. Both can be found in the D-ring style if that’s what your trainer wants. Although, if your horse picks up his head to evade bit pressure altogether, maybe start back from square one in a soft snaffle and go from there. Also, per fair judy’s comment, maybe needs his mouth checked.

[ParadoxFarm]

I know you love this horse and don’t want to lose the ride, but I would NOT be riding with your trainers if they told me to see saw on ANY bit. I think you should look for alternatives. That’s just bad horsemanship.

[Dubarry]

@blondewithchrome

Yes, legal - and especially with a D-ring a judge wouldn’t know what the mouthpiece looks like. Illegal bits in the hunter ring include “but are not limited to, three rings, gags (other than the hunter gag), et cetera.”

OP, I agree that training is the best option here. If dressage isn’t in the cards, you can condition and train a horse to build strength and carry himself - lots of transition work, flat work, etc. I like canter to sitting trot to canter, myself.

I realize you’re looking for a bit to help you in the meantime. Try a waterford, had good experience with it for other strong heavy horses. Again, can be harsh if used incorrectly. Dr. Bristol also a good option for leaners. Both can be found in the D-ring style if that’s what your trainer wants. Although, if your horse picks up his head to evade bit pressure altogether, maybe start back from square one in a soft snaffle and go from there. Also, per fair judy’s comment, maybe needs his mouth checked.

Not to hijack…my Waterford seems really heavy, have they gotten lighter over the years?

[Dewey]

Was going to recommend a Dr. Bristol, but I see someone already did. The bit is relatively mild worn one way; upside down, it’s stronger, so make sure you learn which way is which.

Like you, OP, I think people’s insistence on a D ring is silly, but that’s a minor issue compared to the mouthpiece. The segunda is a harsh bit. I think the answer you have prepared (“I don’t think my hands are light enough to use it”) is excellent.

[atl_hunter]

@Kara S

The young horse that I am riding came with a french link full cheek snaffle. My trainer then put him in a three ring elevator which I hated. He would go around the ring with his head up (even when I had huge loops in my reins) and any time I tried to take up any contact his mouth would open and he’d go behind the vertical.
My trainer then was put in the hospital for a few months and the assistant trainer stepped in. I began to only wear the elevator for lessons and then stopped using it all together.
Skip forward a month or to and my barn is heading up to the Sussex county A show. The assistant trainer asked if I was still using the french link full cheek snaffle for both show and lessons (at this barn each show horse has everyday and show tack) then when she went to go grab another bit from the office she didn’t have one. She appeared with a Large Dee Segunda Bit (I think. it looks like the bit in the link below)

https://www.horsetackco.com/large-dee-segunda-bit.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzoWxr-XH3AIVEj0MCh1k2AOBEAQYBCABEgKePvD_BwE )

Call me ignorant but to me this looks like a rather harsh bit and I’m a little worried seeing as I couldn’t find a lot about what it does or when to use it exc. online. If anyone knows how it works, how harsh it is, and when/ how I should be using it I would really appreciate it! thanks:D

Why not ask your assistant trainer what this bit does, why she chose it, and how you should use it? You are going to get a lot of opinions on here, but the reality is that none of us have seen the horse and none of us have seen you ride. But the assistant trainer has, and can advise.

[findeight]

OP, you are paying a trainer to teach you, not slap a bit on a horse you are learning on and put you up without teaching you HOW to use the rein aids properly with that bit or any other, And you say you haven’t been challenged in 4 years??? Yet complain the horse goes around like a giraffe in an elevator bit with both you and your trainer?? Ask yourself what you are learning from this???

You need to upgrade your knowledge base with better teachers able to communicate their knowledge. You need a better educated horse with better basics to learn on as well, this one isn’t helping you learn anything good from these trainers.

Far as the Segunda, not a thing wrong with it when used correctly for a logical reason. Many Hunters are shown in them. Nothing wrong with the elevator bit either when used correctly for a logical reason… If the horse resists or doesn’t go well in it? The problem is a trainer that doesn’t know how to use any bit properly, train a horse to the basics or teach a novice rider how to use those basics. It’s not the bit, it’s the hands on the reins and knowledge/ skill behind them. To some extent it’s the fault of the horse but it’s only doing what it has been taught, or not taught at all. Horse doesnt have a clue.

Changing disciplines won’t help if you pick another " trainer person" with poor knowledge and communication skills. So called “trainers” skip basics and slap more bit on a horse lacking basics and then hand the reins to a novice lacking basics in Dressage too, all the time, as they do in all disciplines. These people know you are so desperate to have a horse to ride you’ll accept lousy training on a non suitable horse it’s hard to learn anything on. You won’t question anything for fear of losing the ride on the non suitable horse because you think it’s the only horse out there.

True it can be hard to move but paying for incompetent training on a non suitable horse is not getting you headed in the right direction or giving you a solid foundation to build your future as a rider on. Plus that, it’s not your horse here so you can’t make any decisions on bitting and don’t know how to correctly use the bits the owner does have on him, horse doesn’t know how to react either so…round and round you go and will keep going. Until something changes.

These trainers both lost me. One by putting an elevator bit in the hands of a developing rider on a still young, likely green horse and the other grabbing a Segunda the rider could use for the first time ever on said young horse at a good sized show that cost OP plenty as an experiment. Not a recipe for success.

[equest]

@findeight

You need to upgrade your knowledge base with better teachers able to communicate their knowledge. You need a better educated horse with better basics to learn on as well, this one isn’t helping you learn anything good from these trainers.

Far as the Segunda, not a thing wrong with it when used correctly for a logical reason. Many Hunters are shown in them. Nothing wrong with the elevator bit either when used correctly for a logical reason… If the horse resists or doesn’t go well in it? The problem is a rider that doesn’t know how to use it or properly train a horse to the basics or teach a novice rider how to use those basics. It’s not the bit, it’s the hands on the reins and knowledge/ skill behind them. To some extent it’s the fault of the horse but it’s only doing what it has been taught, or not taught at all.

Great insight as always from Find8.
My boy, a still-very-green hunter,goes well in a segunda in over fences classes. He’s still at a stage where he is prone to becoming downhill and heavy, so the segunda serves a purpose and is acceptable in the hunter ring.

As far as the trainer relationship, it’s important to feel comfortable that your trainer is taking the time to teach and explain the various bits, and give due consideration to whether the bit is the correct mouthpiece for the horse and rider combination. If that is lacking in the trainer relationship, that is a problem - but I honestly can’t tell if that is the case from OP’s account.

[findeight]

You know, strikes me calling this three piece snaffle with a port a Segunda is more marketing then a bit description. Sounds rather classical and romantic. Reality is it’s just like a three piece snaffle with a lozenge except for the port giving tongue relief, some will go well in it, others won’t find it comfortable but if the basics aren’t there in horse or rider, lozenge, port or sexy name putting an extra zero on the price won’t solve anything.

[BITSA]

Did you really say your mom was your trainer’s lap dog??? Does your Mom pay for your riding? wow