What does it take to make a nervous horse bold?

[didgery]

(See update page 2 - I can’t find the time to ride more or better, so I am advertising the horse for sale. Thanks for all your advice.)

I have a newish eight year-old crossbred gelding who is a little lazy, a little green, and a little manipulative when it comes to pulling tricks to end a ride.
I will be getting professional help to resolve his issues, but at this point he is so balky and spooky on the trail that I just don’t feel safe.

I am an intermediate level rider and he’s been handled mostly by beginners, so he has gotten used to calling the shots and I think I’m the first person who’s really said “no.” At this point, our ringwork is improving but he’s still snorty outdoors. I have led him on the trail with a whip and rope halter and gotten compliance, and I have lunged him in several scary outdoor areas (scary to him - safe from a human perspective!) and been able to retain his attention with some effort. When riding on the trail he is such a ball of frayed nerves that he can barely go on, and during one group ride his behavior was still very flighty.

On the assumption that I can improve (through dressage lessons) and that I might be able to put him with a trainer who will ride him out on the trail for a month or two, what are the chances that he’ll be a good steady trail horse one day? Is he always going to be a nervous nelly, will I always be pushing and coaxing and waiting for the snort and spin, or could it be that he’s smart and capable, if barn sour and inexperienced? Could we have happy trails in our future, or am I kidding myself to think that this situation could resolve with training?

He was advertised as good for lower level riders, good on the trail, sane and calm. He’s on a hay-only diet, out 24/7, definitely sound and healthy, has no vision issues, has had his saddle professionally fitted, and is easy to ride in a french link loose ring snaffle. I rode him in the arena before buying and took one nerve-racking trail ride, when I blamed his misbehavior on ouchy bare feet. I’ve since tried him shod and had no real improvement.

I’m asking now because I really like a lot of things about this horse but my number one goal is to ride out on the trail in a safe, relaxed fashion and I want to figure out if this gelding has it in him to do that one day before I get so attached that I can’t imagine selling.

[Guilherme]

I’d take a step backwards and do some serious arena work. From your description the horse lacks respect for its rider. Teaching basic respect on a trail can be difficult. In the controlled environment of the school it’s much easier.

Once a stronger “respect” foundation is laid then those lessons can be transferred to a more open environment.

I would also not call this horse “nervous.” I’d call it “spoiled.” Be prepared for resistance to your will.

Good luck with your project.

G.

[Thomas_1]

I’m thinking there’s some fundamental things you’re not understanding.

1. New horse, new environment, new owner.

Why should he trust you??? How long have you let him settle in? What are you doing so he gets to know you? How much time are yuo spending with him? What are you doing other than leading him out and riding him?

2. Picking a fight with a horse is in my experience always destined to end with the person losing. All this talk about “telling him No”, leading him with a whip and forcing compliance sounds like if he’s an intelligent horse, that he’ll express his opinion.

You need to be a trusted leader and leaders don’t force and coerce. You need to establish that you can be trusted and are confident and won’t ask him to do anything that is scarey. You can’t force respect. You earn it.

3. Horses are flight and fright animals. If they feel safe and confident then they don’t fright and flight. You “just don’t feel safe”, he’ll know that and will also not feel safe. You are not providing confident leadership which is what a young new horse needs.

Sounds to me like a VERY common problem with a new horse and a relatively inexperienced owner/rider. Handle him quietly, confidently, assertively and build the relationship. Get the help of a trainer to bring on your riding and confidence and also to get more experience and miles on the horse and get to know the horse from the ground.

[JollyBadger]

How do you feel when you ride him, either in the arena or trail?

Are you tense when you ride? Ready for him to spook at any moment?

I only ask this because I know quite a few horses who, even though they are generally pretty even-tempered and quiet, really feed off the “vibe” from their rider/handler. In one case, it’s come to the point where the horse knows what he can get away with, and does things just to “spook” his rider into thinking it’s going to be too much for her to handle, so she takes him home.

However, when a more experienced rider gets on the horse, he picks up on that right away. Not that he doesn’t test once in a while, but once he realizes he’s not going to get away with it, he stops and behaves for the rest of the ride.

To his credit, being a “green” eight year old with a history of beginner riders may have set him back a few years. Riding him yourself in the arena is a wise decision. . .maybe set out some ground poles or cones and create a little “playground/obstacle course” for yourself to keep his mind going.

It’s great to have a trainer take him out on trail, but you may also want to see about going on trail rides with the trainer - either you riding your horse, or the trainer riding your horse with you on a quieter horse to help you build your own confidence.

Good luck with him!!

[Right_on_Target]

Yes, I think he can end up being a great trail horse if you and your trainer work on him. I agree that assertive handling is what usually makes horses more confident. If they trust their leader, they’ll stop worrying about “dangers” themselves. You and your trainer will have to decide how to handle the spooking depending on the horse’s personality. Some horses do well when pushed through it (spoiled horses), and some take a lot more patience.

This won’t be true for all horses, but I’ve seen a good number of spookers calm down to make very quiet horses.

[tpup]

[QUOTE=didgery;3852765]
I have a newish eight year-old crossbred gelding who is a little lazy, a little green, and a little manipulative when it comes to pulling tricks to end a ride.
I will be getting professional help to resolve his issues, but at this point he is so balky and spooky on the trail that I just don’t feel safe. [/QUOTE]

Is he actually nervous and spooking, or is he pulling tricks to end a ride? They are very different things.

When I bought my horse, he was presented to me as a solid trail horse - did camps, overnight trips - he was also sold to me as a 13 year old (but we now think he is more like 20). He was SO barn sour when I got him, I really thought I would never, ever ride on a trail with him.

I have a wonderful riding teacher who worked us through it - he was ridden by kids and learned he could bully them into just about anything, yet he was and still is quiet, bombproof - just very calculating and will try to turn around when he thinks you are scared. I had to REALLY up my confidence in the saddle. My trainer observed him many times acting up, and during those times when I thought he was anxious, spooky or scared (and that’s why I THOUGHT he wanted to turn home…), he exhibited NONE of the body language of a scared horse. He was simply bullying me, but I couldn’t see it. She did. It changed my mindset and I am proud to say that a year later, we are trail riding and enjoying it. Here’s what worked for us.

Number one - TIME. Your horse needs to trust you. Dressage lessons and ring work will help you - get your horse moving laterally. It took months of training to get my horse TO the trails (we are a 10 minute ride away from where the trails start - through fields, etc.)

Number two - Get help from an instructor. I needed someone on the ground helping me to INSIST he go forward. I was scared to wack him with the crop (which is what he needed). I would give him a little sissy tap and he would just continue to pirrouette me back toward the barn. He was literally hauling me in whatever direction he wanted (not dangerously) by stopping and turning. He had also started doing TINY rears (like 6 inches off the ground) which needed to be nipped in the bud immediately. He had trick after trick in his “tool bag” to avoid moving out away from the barn. There came a time when I had enough. I needed “mantra’s” in my head - like RELAX…INSIST…MOVE FORWARD…and he needed to learn I was in charge, not him. It was not easy for me, but I did it and learned SO much.

Number three - make your rides positive, as in - take your gelding down the driveway or a SHORT distance successfully, and end there. Next day, go further, etc. Don’t try to just trail ride one day with this horse. Let him trust you.

I ride on the trails sometimes in disbelief when I remember what he was like a year ago. Many would have given up but I refuse to, and I hate to fail

I also used NH training techniques from Clinton Anderson - his trail training DVD’s, groundwork DVD’s and “armed myself” with learning and practicing the one rein stop until it was engrained in my muscle memory.

I also rode in a Western saddle until I felt more confident.

Every now and then he tries a turn around midway through the ride, and but he gets a quick smack with the crop, or I ORS and put his butt to work, and then onward we go. What used to be a 30 minute battle (seriously) is now about 10 seconds. He knows I mean business and we are GOING.

I asked my question at the beginning of my post because sometimes they are barn sour, scare you - they pick up on your fear and “seem spooky” when they are not.

[Come_Shine]

[QUOTE=didgery;3852765]
He was advertised as good for lower level riders, good on the trail, sane and calm.[/QUOTE]

If he was good where he came from, maybe he just needs time to get used to the new place and trails. Can you take him on short loops and get progressively longer as he relaxes?

It’s also pretty, umm, brisk out right now and lots of horses are feeling their oats a bit. He may settle in more as it warms up.

Another thing to consider, perhaps some herbal assistance to calm down a bit may be helpful.

If he honestly was a good trail horse before, there really shouldn’t be a reason he can’t be one again.

[gothedistance]

didgery -

I’m going to be the downer in this whole discussion. I think this horse is not going to work out for you. :no:

Meaning - the horse will never be what you want on the trail, even with months and years of lessons and training. It might get marginally better, as will your riding…BUT… the horse will always be a PITA and, when push comes to shove, it will revert instantly to being nerve wracking at the worst possible moment.

You will always have to be on guard, guessing what will happen next, always nervous, always apprehensive…because this is not an honest horse. It’s a lazy screw that spends it whole time trying to get out of work. At 8 years of age this horse is already set in his ways, and those are the ways of a sly, dishonest creature you don’t want or need.

If you keep this horse the whole ownership experience will leave you upset, angry, second guessing yourself, and a real erosion to your confidence.

You obviously have already come to that conclusion in your mind and I think you should follow through with getting rid of the horse ASAP…and look for one that will go out on the trail with perfect manners when you try it out.

Finally, don’t ever make excuses for a horse you are trying – if it isn’t want you want at the onset, chances are it won’t be at home either - as you’ve already seen in this horse. Find something that is happy to carry you down the trail with a smile on both your faces. You will be much happier in the long run. :yes:

[didgery]

Posted before I saw the above response! To you, gothedistance, thanks. I do appreciate honesty. My plan is to try my best with this gelding until April or so, and then list him for sale if there isn’t some great improvement in our relationship by then. My neighbor has a very fine and underused mule that I have ridden on the trail alone without a single issue, so my plan B is to put out feelers about whether he might be for sale.

Now, the original post :

Thanks for all the advice and commentary.

For those who wondered about settling in, he remains at his original boarding barn where he’s lived for two years. The surroundings are not new, but I am!

He was being ridden a couple of times a year by his former owner and is now being ridden a couple of times a week. I wish I could do more, but every third day or so is the most I can manage and it’s more than he’s used to. His fitness has been gradually improving through ring work.

I do believe that his jitters are a combination of “fake” spooks to end the ride (though I never let him end on a bad note - if nothing else, I’ll get off and lunge if I don’t feel safe) and low confidence in me. He really doesn’t think I’m much good for keeping the cougars at bay.

Leading him on the trail with a whip and rope halter = attentive horse walking at my shoulder on a loose lead.

Leading him behind the barn (nevermind out on the trail itself!) with a leather halter and no whip = quivering, snorting, fussing horse tripping over himself and me.

I do think that there’s a respect problem here and most of his worst behaviors have been when he just thinks we should be done (because he sees turn-in starting, meaning dinner is on it’s way, for instance) and not when something objectively scary happens. He’s not stupid!!

I don’t think he’s excessively hot or silly, but rather just manipulative. He knows that I have low confidence and he’s working it.

Feels like there’s hope for us, assuming continued dressage lessons, lots of work for me on assertive, calm handling on the ground and in the saddle, and eventually short group trail rides with a more experienced horse and rider.

[katarine]

spoiled ding a ling.

what about him says to you, I’m 20 lessons short of being a good trail horse?

I think he’s not the right fit, and life is short. They revert to their early lessons under stress. He’ll fall apart given a chance. He’d likely improve with the trainer, sure…but this isn’t ooo I’m scared…this is ooo I’m nappy and spoiled. he’ll be a pill with you.

the good steady eddy trail horses just stand around being good. I have one in the pasture who can stand around for months then go on a spin round the woods. In the lead, in the back, he doesn’t care. Those horses aren’t made in 2 months. They are somewhat born to it, then trained to it. Early

[SharonA]

If you want to try to make it work (it sounds like you do), I’d try lots of groundwork to establish who’s herd leader (you don’t have to slavishly follow any one guru, but look into the Chris Cox, Parelli, Clint Anderson, etc. stuff and see what you can take away from it). But, alot of it is (in my experience of one horse, owned for one whole year now) rider confidence, and that may just take time. Now I laugh when my horse pulls out her bag of tricks. “Be a man!” I tell her. But, I don’t think she is as argumentative as your guy.

Once you get him out on the trail, try singing. My horse seems to respond to, among others:

1. I Ride an Old Paint…
2. Michael Row the Boat Ashore
3. Swing Low, Sweet Chariot
4. Ravioli, I like Ravioli; Ravioli, it’s the food for me (you may not know this one unless you have young children)
5. On Top of Spaghetti
6. If I Had a Hammer
7. Kookabura
8. Waltzing Mathilda
9. I L-O-V-E Y-O-U (again, it’s a young children thing)
10. Hushabye Street (again, young children)
11. Bicycle Built for Two

[jazzrider]

[QUOTE=SharonA;3853682]
Once you get him out on the trail, try singing. My horse seems to respond to, among others:

1. I Ride an Old Paint…
2. Michael Row the Boat Ashore
3. Swing Low, Sweet Chariot
4. Ravioli, I like Ravioli; Ravioli, it’s the food for me (you may not know this one unless you have young children)
5. On Top of Spaghetti
6. If I Had a Hammer
7. Kookabura
8. Waltzing Mathilda
9. I L-O-V-E Y-O-U (again, it’s a young children thing)
10. Hushabye Street (again, young children)[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol::lol: I use “Thumbalina,” changing my horse’s names to make the syllable thing work (Luke-avizi or Jazz-y-moto). :winkgrin:

[tkhawk]

Without actually seeing the horse, it is somewhat difficult to tell. It depends on the horse and rider. My mare is great for me-will go through anything. But because of her quickness and her tendency to take offence when corrected severely-for her-I wouldn’t put her with a rough and tumble rider. My mustang on the other hand-I think once he gets there, he will be bombproof. Not sensitive to you and doesn’t “lean” on you as much. For now he is a pain, but just his confidence is interesting.

Anything takes time. Are you going out on the trail by yourself? If the horse is new, the boarding place is new and the trails are new-you have pretty much changed everything. Give him some time. You can’t control a horse 100% of the time by force alone. Just get him to accept that you know better and give to you naturally. It takes time, patience and effort. Good luck.

[2enduraceriders]

I bought a 10 year old “ride anywhere” trail horse. What was not said was that this horse was trail rode always on the same trails or else followed on new trails.
So I get the guy and first thing is I am asking for an extended trot and expect to fly though the trails in the woods. He is scared of down trees. He is also capable of doing a 180 at an 10 mile an hour trot.
For the first 8 months he was road once or twice a month. 3 month gap for my surgery then road 4-8 times a month.
We are planning to do a 50 mile ride in April or May.

Try one long trail ride with him. One long enough and fast enough to get him tiered and sweaty. Make it be work. Lots of changes in pace, bending. If you have a lot of improvement at the end of the ride you two can work it out. If he is still spooking then he is not the horse for you. Don’t waste the money in training.

Just because a horse is calm and relaxed with one rider (trainer) does not mean he will click with every person.

[chicamuxen1]

Oooh, I’m fond of “I ride an Old Paint” also! Not many people know old songs like that anymore.

I’m impressed Didgery that you’re able to see that this horse (and many, many horses) just would rather stay at home with their buddies and not work! it’s not all about trust issues, unless you mean he trusts you mean what you say and you will stay on top and require that he go on down that darn trail!

Lot’s of issues IMO come down to rider confidence, overcoming your own fear and lack of assertiveness. And failure on the part of instructors. Yes, I said instructors, not trainers. Most instructors are traditional arena instructors, they will teach you a position to use in the saddle, heels just so, hands, elbows, this is how you do a half halt, etc. They don’t know how to address rider fear, teach defensive riding, assertiveness and rider/horse confidence. In fact, a lot of instructors have found a specialty of catering to fearful riders. They don’t actually do much to change that fearfulness, they just give their students lots of warm fuzzy feelings and never puch their comfort bubble. So their fearful students adore them as they never get pushed, they are allowed to take the same lessons over and over without having to really change or challenge themselves.

Can you tell I’m ranting? I’ve taken riding lessons for nearly 50 years off and on. I’ve taught lessons too. I’m amazed at the quantity of these instructors and their bread and butter are adult women. Yes, there are lot’s of NH trainers that have jumped on this band wagon. It’s OK to spend the next 5 years playing “games” on the ground and never getting out of a walk while actually on your horse?

The first step to becoming the leader when on your horse is recognizing your confidence and possibly fear issues. Then, you have to be able to quit making excuses for the horse. Recognize that he has reasons for his actions but that is different from making excuses for him (and yourself). Find an instructor who will help you get a tighter more effective seat. Learn to stay on when the horse misbehaves. I’m a big believer in lot’s of the NH methods but you still need to learn to have a good seat and the defensive posture needs to come as a reflex. Carry a long dressage whip that will let you tap your horses hiney while you keep both hands on the reins!

Bonnie S.

[horsepix76]

[QUOTE=didgery;3852765]
I’m asking now because I really like a lot of things about this horse but my number one goal is to ride out on the trail in a safe, relaxed fashion and I want to figure out if this gelding has it in him to do that one day before I get so attached that I can’t imagine selling.[/QUOTE]

Well, first of all, riding should be fun. If its not and you don’t want to deal with it, move him on to a home that works for him and find a better horse that works for you. I know…easier said than done!

I don’t know if you have access to any trail safe horses, but here is what we do with horses fresh from the track. The skitish ones are entered into a 30 day program with a trail rider. The trail rider starts off the 30 days by ponying the new horse along side another horse out on the trail. About two weeks in, a rider rides the new horse along side the pony horse. Then for the last two weeks, the horse that was the new horse is now the lead horse and ponies another new horse out on the trail. This builds a tremendous amount of confidence in the originally skitish horse. Now he is the leader. We’ve seen it work over and over again. In fact, we have horses that were somewhat crazy nervous that are now FABULOUS trail horses. They aren’t scared, they go through water, leave the pack, etc. It really works well if you have a confident horse to start the process.

Good luck to you!

[Icecapade]

Yes… and NO

It depends on how comfortable you are with being in odd situations and possibly dangerous ones. You can be smart about it and do what you can but with a horse like this… sometimes push comes to shove and you wind up in a tight spot.

There was a boarded gelding I used to ride was spoiled rotten.

I started riding him… god only knows why… and I used the saddle a man we shall call D used… big gynormous 40 lbs of western saddle and a mechanical hackamore. we did some rides, I got beat up… I came off once or twice. I got schwacked… we did it all. and we worked and worked and worked on his trot… .he was a spoker and quick about it… for a taller horse. He would balk and spin round and round.

One of my first 50 milers with him, i couldn’t get him to trot, he was just cantering cantering cantering… and you could pull and ask and plead and be nice, but he would jsut slow down to the point of a crawl in his little lope. I was in tears… at this point we were holding people up… and I was so upset (never good to be the 16 year old upset girl in the first 10 miles of a 50) and my dad got off and I remember very distinctly like it was yesterday… him stepping to my knee looking up at me and telling me I was wasting my time and D had ruined this horse and he was good for dog food and nothing else.

And we finished… and then we did some more.

I did my first 100 on that horse and came in 4th.

Eventually the horse was sold to a friend who wanted to do some endurance and his big QH for NATRC wouldn’t cut it… friend got married and had twins… and then my dad bought the horse back. And uses him for cav competitions and endurance.

He still to this day will act a fool if you don’t actually ride him… if you let him sit for a month or two… you take him out put him up at the rail and that sucker will go over on you aren’t paying attention. It might take you twenty minutes to get out of the drive way…

if you ride him two or three times a week is is almost as good as gold. he just took a lot of miles… 2 years worth of steady riding and a lot of following an older buisness man who had been doing it as long as he had been alive. Rio ironed out… but it just took time… and one dumb little girl who wouldn’t give up on him.

So I firmly believe that most horses can be fixed… (had a mustang that we couldn’t so I know there are those out there) and can be ridden out and about, it just takes a lot of time, more time than people are usually willing to donate.

I say no becaues… most people want it NOW… and don’t have the time… and most people aren’t willing to get thrown around a bit… I rememer having big ass bruises on my legs from my saddle from getting slung around. I learned how to stick with it… it was ugly- but I stuck it… and if you are willing to just say I’m on for the ride here we go… you can make it happen.

Best of luck to you I hope it works out! =)

[cloudyandcallie]

[QUOTE=katarine;3853429]
spoiled ding a ling.

what about him says to you, I’m 20 lessons short of being a good trail horse?

I think he’s not the right fit, and life is short. They revert to their early lessons under stress. He’ll fall apart given a chance. He’d likely improve with the trainer, sure…but this isn’t ooo I’m scared…this is ooo I’m nappy and spoiled. he’ll be a pill with you.

the good steady eddy trail horses just stand around being good. I have one in the pasture who can stand around for months then go on a spin round the woods. In the lead, in the back, he doesn’t care. Those horses aren’t made in 2 months. They are somewhat born to it, then trained to it. Early ;)[/QUOTE]

She’s right. And so is the other poster who said this.

[ayrabz]

don’t you think it often comes down to: your relationship with this horse (?) I mean…as in, what comes first as far as priority for you: keeping THIS horse or getting a perfect trail horse?
Yup, I agree with all who have posted that life is short, and there are better fits for your riding preference RIGHT NOW (and, maybe forever!). Is that what you want? Then, realize that and go for it!
I know my horse will never be the perfect trail horse. He just isn’t! But we keep at it, and I know I’ll have him as long as I’m in control of that decision. Yes, he’s grown because of that…yes, its been tirering…(and YES I’ve wished he was the ‘trail horse extrodinaire’ many many times!:lol:) But the difference for me, is he’s my one and only. I enjoy trail riding. I enjoy him with all his issues. So! I say, the trials and the journey can be worth it, if this guy is the one you want to stick with. It can and will ‘get better’…but only you can decide if thats ‘good enough’.

[wateryglen]

jmho!

It’s mileage, mileage, mileage, mileage, consistency, consistency, consistency, becoming the boss & brains of your relationship and mileage, mileage, mileage.
Many horses are best when ridden more often. They learn a routine and not to waste their energy. A little fatigue can be very calming!