What does "ride from behind" mean to YOU?

[anon55755751]

Not looking for advice specifically, just interested in hearing how other people think about and talk about the concept and hope it will lead to a productive discussion for the forum.

What does it mean to you?
How does it inform how you ride and train?
How do you know when you “have it”?
When you don’t have it, how do you go about getting it?

For the instructors out there, how do you explain it to your students?

For the judges out there, how do you detect it and how does it influence your overall impression of a test/rider/horse?

[netg]

It means I’m not the rider I want to be yet!

But really, it’s riding the hind legs under and developing power from behind, rather than pulling my horse to me. When I do it right, my horse is round and through and soft in the bridle. When I don’t, she’s not… In her case, it’s VERY visible, too.

This canter photo I am riding her from behind, and you can see the uphill and power. The trot photo, you can see the break in her neck, and that her withers are lower than her haunches. It’s because I have my reins too short and am pulling instead of giving forward. Notice my shoulders are also up near my ears in the trot photo - I brace in my shoulders which causes the pull. We still have energy in the trot photo, but there’s a reason the canter was getting 8s and the trot was getting 6es. My fault. Her back is more dropped in the trot photo behind the saddle, too. It all adds up to me not riding right.
BTW - these photos were from our highest scoring test ever, the judge underlined LOVELY canter, and after we finished my trainer took me out to the warmup and made me trot while giving forward with my hands to feel the difference in her trot, and told me it would be the difference between scores in the 60s and scores in the 70s. He was, of course, exactly right.

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[walktrot]

I don’t think I’ve ever really understood it until this past weekend. We had Susan Harris (of Anatomy in Motion and Centered Riding fame) at our barn, and I watched several lessons. She is fantastic about breaking things down into achievable steps. She talked about asking your horse for big steps behind. She had the riders working on timing to build awareness of when the inside hind was swinging forward. She also had them working on asking for longer steps and maintaining the rhythm rather than allowing the feet to move faster. That combination broke things down so that it was much clearer what “riding from behind” means and how you get there. These were not trained dressage horses and the riders are basically novices, but they were able to make a big difference in how their horses moved.

[sophie]

To me it means to “engage” the hind legs in a way that the energy comes from behind, goes up through the back and is “received” in the rider’s hands. I envision a bow when you pull on the string to let an arrow fly. The “pull on the string” is the rider’s legs engaging the hind. With its back up, the horse is much more receptive to the rider’s aids.

I know when I do it right because my mare is then easy to rate (changes within the gait), responds to 1/2 halts from my seat, and stays soft and relaxed in my hands.

My instructor has us ride bigger steps at walk and trot, without changing anything else. Easier said than done on some horses, lol!

[BigMama1]

I totally understand the what and the why of it but struggle daily with the how, how to ride thebhi d leg, how to encourage longer steps behind, etc.

[Tanny98]

@BigMama1

I totally understand the what and the why of it but struggle daily with the how, how to ride thebhi d leg, how to encourage longer steps behind, etc.

Ditto. Influencing the hind leg with the seat seems to be taking me some time to learn lol.

[Dressage_Strider]

ride the horse from behind=don’t be afraid of impulsion. Get your horse moving, awaiting your next request. once you have a horse moving from behind, identify points of tension and start to manipulate the horse to release that tension. This allows the horse to use that impulsion that you have created, and creates a nearly effortless circle of haunches-back-shoulders-poll-haunches

I call it the Centaur effect

It literally feels like you are a part of the horse, reading each other’s mind and performing movements without question.

Note - this doesn’t mean perfection - but it means the horse is not fighting in any way, and is attempting to do what is asked.

This is how we train, this is how we improve, this is how we build topline, trust and strength :love-struck:

[kashmere]

Right now, with my current horse, it means “leg before hand, always, all the time.” More specifically, when there is resistance, ask for more forward - if she hollows or comes against the hand, push forward first before using hand; if she reacts to something or acts silly/spooks - push forward into the hand. The first 20 or so minutes of our rides are getting the forward established and reliable on a long (not loose) rein. When she is swinging forward and accepting the hand (maybe not “on contact” correctly, but accepting and soft), I ask for “too much” forward, and then I play with bringing it back and asking her to wait - at both walk and trot. These little in-gait transitions are key for this horse to really engage her engine and start to push into the bridle rather then either resist against the hand or suck back and avoid contact. Lots of longeing on side reins has also been a godsend to this mare.

This horse came to me with a real disconnect between leg/hand aids. She has lovely natural gaits that cramp up and get sticky as she feels “blocked” by contact or she gets tense and rushy and comes up against the hand. It’s a long, slow process to connect those aids for her - many moments of brilliance when she swings into contact and her back comes up, and many moments of struggle as we seek to understand each other. She’s a true “project horse” through and through - a $600 OTTB-turned broodmare with some mystery years during which she acquired some pretty bad habits and (likely well-intended but poorly executed) bad training.

For a young/green/unstarted/less complicated horse, my process has always been similar, but the obstacles are generally less ingrained in the horse and it’s easier to show them that “forward into the hand” is a happy, supportive, comfortable place to live.

When it comes to well trained schoolmaster types, that’s when I sit back and learn what the horse has to teach me

[Scribbler]

I think this is a really important concept but that the phrase “riding from behind” can be a little misleading. You definitely need to get the hind end moving big and freely, and that sometimes means not being over concerned with what the front end is doing. Perhaps the confusion happens when people say “ride from behind and then capture the energy with the hands,” but “capture” before the horse has a true forward. Then you get the example of the trot posted above, which to be honest doesn’t look that bad compared to a lot of what I see.

Also I don’t think that any kind of grinding with the seat bones is helpful, because it tends to make the horse drop the back. I think you want a lighter seat to encourage the horse to raise the back.

For whatever reason, over the past year or so, at the big swinging walk, I am often having moments of feeling that my seat bones are “plugged into” the horse, just following the swing, riding the hind end. I’d heard people mention that before but never really experienced it. Not so much at the trot, since I am still mostly posting rather than sitting. Anyhow it’s a great feeling and hopefully I will eventually feel this at all the gaits! so for me, what I feel in this big swinging walk where I am following the movements of the haunches, feels to me like the start of riding from behind.

[Mondo]

Scribbler is right. You never “influence… the hind leg with the seat…” Seat is a collecting aid, lower leg is a forward aid. You “influence” I prefer the word, control, the hind legs with your LEGS, not your seat.

[purplnurpl]

I hate that phrase. So I pretend it does not exist.
I don’t really think much about what I do, I just do until it feels right.

Much like my issues with direction. I seriously can’t handle being told to pick up the right rein.
When asked to do that, I automatically pick up the right rein…and for some reason then, I’m the only one in the clinic tracking left…

[sophie]

@Scribbler

I think this is a really important concept but that the phrase “riding from behind” can be a little misleading. […] Perhaps the confusion happens when people say “ride from behind and then capture the energy with the hands,” but “capture” before the horse has a true forward.

Yes, this is why I prefer to say “receive”. To receive something it has to be “sent” first

[LilyandBaron]

I’ve kind of gone through a reset of this idea the past year and a half, working in clinics with a Cadre Noir graduate. Now, he’s not into the Philippe Karl extreme of the French school, but I used to be told that forward fixes everything, and was obsessed with not getting in their face/riding from behind, etc. But I was just pushing into nothing. It’s been miraculous for my horses to have me ensure they are soft and accepting contact, so that I CAN receive that forward energy. It’s not a dramatic difference in terms of amount of pressure/weight from legs or hands - I like my horses responsive to aids, because I’m not okay with kicking all the time, but the timing of it all. Basically, if I push the hind end forward but the front end is wrong, I’ve got myself into a mess. So get the jaw to soften a bit (not extreme flexions and pulling, but unlocking), then get on with it. And I really, really can tell how the separation of the aids is helpful - I used to envision pushing the hind end up into the hands - and all that did was create more force in both aids. Loving this new balance of the aids - it is still FORWARD, but when I push forward now, it’s INTO the circle of energy, and I don’t have to work too hard to get that back into balance like I did when I went forward THEN tried to establish a correct contact. Moral of the story - focusing too much on the bad things about pulling and knowing that energy must come from behind, I overemphasized forward and didn’t give due diligence to the contact. I feel like forward is too aggressive - maybe flowing is better? Love the pics from netg that illustrate so clearly the results - though the “bad” is NOT as bad as some, clearly it shows how we can all do better!

[Crockpot]

You need the water to boil before you put the lid on

but then there is a balance

[netg]

@LilyandBaron

I’ve kind of gone through a reset of this idea the past year and a half, working in clinics with a Cadre Noir graduate. Now, he’s not into the Philippe Karl extreme of the French school, but I used to be told that forward fixes everything, and was obsessed with not getting in their face/riding from behind, etc. But I was just pushing into nothing. It’s been miraculous for my horses to have me ensure they are soft and accepting contact, so that I CAN receive that forward energy. It’s not a dramatic difference in terms of amount of pressure/weight from legs or hands - I like my horses responsive to aids, because I’m not okay with kicking all the time, but the timing of it all. Basically, if I push the hind end forward but the front end is wrong, I’ve got myself into a mess. So get the jaw to soften a bit (not extreme flexions and pulling, but unlocking), then get on with it. And I really, really can tell how the separation of the aids is helpful - I used to envision pushing the hind end up into the hands - and all that did was create more force in both aids. Loving this new balance of the aids - it is still FORWARD, but when I push forward now, it’s INTO the circle of energy, and I don’t have to work too hard to get that back into balance like I did when I went forward THEN tried to establish a correct contact. Moral of the story - focusing too much on the bad things about pulling and knowing that energy must come from behind, I overemphasized forward and didn’t give due diligence to the contact. I feel like forward is too aggressive - maybe flowing is better? Love the pics from netg that illustrate so clearly the results - though the “bad” is NOT as bad as some, clearly it shows how we can all do better!

Really lovely explanation! I find for me, it’s the

For a difference in using vs not using the aids correctly, here’s a better trot pic (credit my friend Alana on this, though I don’t know that she’s on here we have several friends who are ): [ATTACH=JSON]{“alt”:“Click image for larger version Name: RRII2017_Trot.jpg Views: 1 Size: 21.6 KB ID: 9868495”,“data-align”:“none”,“data-attachmentid”:“9868495”,“data-size”:“full”,“title”:“RRII2017_Trot.jpg”}[/ATTACH]

[LilyandBaron]

@netg - Gorgeous and then the trick is doing it like that second pic all the time! But that’s the journey, isn’t it? Learning, and then consistently doing, and adjusting to the horse so that we are doing what they need in that moment. The grand passion that is dressage:)

[Nestor]

It means focusing on the hind end, rather than the head as some amateurs like to do. That means having forward, asking the horse to step underneath themselves and bend as appropriate for the level they are at, and half-halting to ask them to sit and collect more and lift their shoulders. All of dressage originates from the hind end. The horse should be supple and responsive through his back/ribcage, neck, and jaw while this is all happening.

As I have a horse who is naturally very light in the mouth and neck, but a bit tense in his back and ribcage, I can quite literally focus on his body and hind end. Which comes first depends on the day. One day last week, he was so humped up and backed off of my leg (he gets sticky in smaller spaces), I had to focus on loosening up his back and ribcage before I could even think of asking him to go forward. Unless I wanted to do some handstands, of course. A few minutes of figure 8s at the trot, with some smaller and larger circles, and he was good to go and then I could focus on getting a bit more impulsion from behind. But generally… you get the idea.

It also relates to the feeling when the horse is truly pushing from behind and lifting his shoulders. You no longer feel like you are just sitting on top of the horse, but rather he is coming up and forward underneath you and so the horse’s balance has shifted back, and you feel you are sitting on more of the power of the hind end than just plopped on his back.

[Heinz_57]

@Nestor

It also relates to the feeling when the horse is truly pushing from behind and lifting his shoulders. You no longer feel like you are just sitting on top of the horse, but rather he is coming up and forward underneath you and so the horse’s balance has shifted back, and you feel you are sitting on more of the power of the hind end than just plopped on his back.

This really resonates, for me, with regards to the horse I just retired (who happens to be related to netg’s gelding she mentioned up-thread). When I was able to get him to really push from behind and lift himself through the back and shoulders for the first time, it was a very drastic change and obvious feeling. Instead of cruising along on a relatively level plane like a barge, it felt like I was driving a power boat, the bow of my horse lifting up with each rev of the engine. No amount of rein pulling or lifting was ever going to achieve that, it had to come from the hind legs.

[netg]

@Heinz 57

This really resonates, for me, with regards to the horse I just retired (who happens to be related to netg’s gelding she mentioned up-thread). When I was able to get him to really push from behind and lift himself through the back and shoulders for the first time, it was a very drastic change and obvious feeling. Instead of cruising along on a relatively level plane like a barge, it felt like I was driving a power boat, the bow of my horse lifting up with each rev of the engine. No amount of rein pulling or lifting was ever going to achieve that, it had to come from the hind legs.

I’m not positive I mentioned him! Adore my TB goof.

He’s actually more drastic than my mare, similar to this description - very similar overall to Heinz’ horse.

Sadly, I have no recent photos of him - usually it’s only me and my trainer when I ride him! The power and overstep here despite the fact my hands are still pulling down incorrectly:

Vs not wanting to reach into contact, wanting to hollow his back behind the saddle and duck the bit on his part and having no clue how to ride him yet on my part here:
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[Scribbler]

netg, it’s great to see the improvement here in how your horse carries himself! Obviously you have some good coaching happening!