What does the "perfect" saddle fit feel like?

[Junebug125]

Someone rekindle my hope- have you ever been able to achieve the holy grail of horse and rider fit? What does it feel like to you?

Synopsis:
Got a middle-aged Schleese (JES elite) to start. While it fits horse beautifully, I am placed perpetually behind the motion and it doesn’t offer much in terms of support. Then I got an Obrigado that looked promising and placed me more forward, but I felt like I was straddling a 2x4 on top of his back (really). Next, I sat in a bunch of Customs (evidently the only fitter that will come to my barn) for comparison, but most were long on him and put me too far back. I liked the feel and position of the Wolfgang Matrix, but the hybrid panels added bounce to the trot. Fitter is bringing more for me to try.
So. I feel obnoxiously like the princess and the pea. The consensus is that horse has large shoulders and lots of motion through his back, which makes it tricky to find a saddle that helps align me with the “sweet spot” and stay there. The feel I have in my head/desire is connected to his back, without being tipped too far back or forward (talking seat balance, not fit issues), and with a supportive seat. I sure hope it exists. Found the right trainer and the right horse…the missing piece seems to be the right saddle!

[Scribbler]

How long have you been riding this horse with this trainer? Does the horse have much bigger gaits than you are used to? Did you have problems with saddle fit for rider in the past when you rode horses that had more modest movement, or did all saddles seem perfectly fine back then?

On the other hand, do you have any known fitting problems or position problems that stem from either your physiology like tight hips, or bad habits like tilting forward?

I ask these questions because the real solution might be getting fit and secure enough to ride a horse with big gaits, and up to that point no saddle will ever feel right.

I feel like my saddle fits me just fine, it’s an older Passier with less structure than today’s models, but then my horse has small, comfortable gaits.

[Tanny98]

Dressage saddles are so immensely personal since you are expected to pretty much stay glued to your horses back and have this deep connection. Of course it must be molded to your butt…

I have a Hulsebos WB4. When I had it fitted it only needed minor tweaking to my horse. It did take me a bit of getting used to in the first few rides mainly
because I had developed some poor habits with the saddle it was replacing. So in a way I feel it helped improve my position. Every time I sit in it now it feels like home. My other saddle fitted to my other horse is a Black Country Eden. It’s so so. It’s not as deep seated as the Hulsebos but the two aren’t so dissimilar that I have to figure out how to sit in it… the seat isn’t as cushiony would be my only legit complaint haha.

If the saddle is causing a pain issues that’s a dead give away. Maybe you are getting more winded and tired quicker? Or are unusually sore and tight in odd muscles after the ride where you normally wouldn’t feel it. The saddle may be causing you to tense up in odd areas to balance. Also look at how you have to adjust your stirrups in order to either find the sweet spot in the saddle to make it work for your body. Is it causing you to adjust your stirrups too long or too short? That could be another sign of bad fit.

[eponacelt]

The saddle that fits me best is the one that fits the horse best. A saddle that is well fitted to your horse, and allows him the appropriate movement and has the right balance on his back will naturally put you in the right place. That said, you still need to be able to control your body and ride with your own correct balance, because no amount of proper saddle fit will help correct an imbalanced rider (ask me how I know!).

[sheltona01]

Where are you located? It sounds like to me your fitter is giving you excuses not solutions. This is a pet peeve of mine, the only thing shoulders have to do with saddle fitting is placement. They are a reflection of how the horse moves since they are only attached by soft tissues which gives you indications of the horse’s body. However you do not need to “fit” the shoulders.

As far as the saddle, the best saddle is the one that you do not notice. It is comfortable and gently holds you in a neutral position without interfering with your riding, but gives you support when you need it.

[exvet]

Your expectations sound reasonable. I have a very challenging to fit breed. In addition I breed, start/back and train my own so their shape changes over time. I keep a collection of saddles because of that and face the saddle fit nightmare each time a bring one up through the levels. I do have 3 models that I tend to stick with unless the horse dictates that I find something else (usually occurs when I go outside ‘my’ breed). The feeling you describe is what I feel when the saddle fits the horse perfectly and me. If the saddle doesn’t fit the horse it’s a no go but if it doesn’t fit me it’s a no go as well. I know the twist I do best with and the stirrup bar placement so these factors dictate what models I stick with and then it’s the panel shape and size that dictate which one of my saddles goes on which curvy back or less curvy back. When it all works I’m in the sweet spot and very little can get me out of it…keep in mind I back my own and I’m 54 so that sweet spot is vital to my safety as well as affects my equitation. I think the other poster who suspects excuses are being given instead of solutions is dead on. I’ve worked with one saddlery for the last decade sticking with them once I found consistency in understanding and service. Keep looking, you’ll find the unicorn but as we all do you may kiss a few more toads until you do.

[Junebug125]

Thank you all for your thoughts!

@Scribbler

How long have you been riding this horse with this trainer? Over a year with trainer, a little less with horse. Does the horse have much bigger gaits than you are used to? Did you have problems with saddle fit for rider in the past when you rode horses that had more modest movement, or did all saddles seem perfectly fine back then? Not particularly…rode a variety before him in various saddles that weren’t necessarily fitted to me.

On the other hand, do you have any known fitting problems or position problems that stem from either your physiology like tight hips, or bad habits like tilting forward? Former hunter eq kid, so it is easy for me to close my hip angle.

I ask these questions because the real solution might be getting fit and secure enough to ride a horse with big gaits, and up to that point no saddle will ever feel right. 100% fair! My telltale that I was ready to move on from this particular saddle was no-stirrups November. I knew it wasn’t optimal, but I didn’t realize how hard I was fighting a chair seat until I took stirrups away every day! FWIW, trainer has commented how this saddle pitches me back and does the same to her when she rides in it. I’m finally in a position to replace it.

@Tanny98

If the saddle is causing a pain issues that’s a dead give away. Maybe you are getting more winded and tired quicker? Or are unusually sore and tight in odd muscles after the ride where you normally wouldn’t feel it. The saddle may be causing you to tense up in odd areas to balance. Also look at how you have to adjust your stirrups in order to either find the sweet spot in the saddle to make it work for your body. Is it causing you to adjust your stirrups too long or too short? That could be another sign of bad fit. Yes to all of the above!

@sheltona01

Where are you located? Southeast. It sounds like to me your fitter is giving you excuses not solutions. This is a pet peeve of mine, the only thing shoulders have to do with saddle fitting is placement. They are a reflection of how the horse moves since they are only attached by soft tissues which gives you indications of the horse’s body. However you do not need to “fit” the shoulders. Thank you for your perspective. It’s interesting- I didn’t really get that impression. For more context, I bought the schleese based on what his former owner had him fitted in with the full knowledge that it was a “starter” for me. It worked for him and that was my priority.
For various reasons I have not been able to work with the local schleese rep in person. However, the custom rep works on any brand and is familiar with schleese. I’ve been pleased with her work so far and she’s accessible. She has commented that he’s not a particularly difficult fit and echoed your thoughts on fitting the back rather than the shoulder (and schleeses are marketed with SO much emphasis on the shoulder).

As far as the saddle, the best saddle is the one that you do not notice. It is comfortable and gently holds you in a neutral position without interfering with your riding, but gives you support when you need it.Yes please!

[Pocket_Pony]

It is one of those “you know it when you feel it” things. For me with my Frank Baines Capriole it was just an a-ha! moment. I was not fighting my position. I sat right in the correct spot very easily. The stirrup bar placement was just right for my legs. The flap was forward enough for my thigh. The seat was open enough that I didn’t feel locked in. It was just easy-peasy. Granted, that was also the saddle that fit my horse well at the time, too, so it was a perfect combination.

I’m now in the long process of off-and-on saddle shopping for my Pony. She likes my jump saddle well enough that I’m not in a hurry to HAVE to get her a dressage saddle, but I forgot what a PITA it was. I tried a lot of Customs and I think they are just not the saddle for me, though they are lovely saddles. Their stirrup bar placement does not work for my leg/hip situation. I’ve got another suggestion from an independent fitter of something I should try but I’m waiting until winter is over to pursue that option.

You might try contacting Jen, The Saddle Geek: http://www.thesaddlegeek.com/ She’s got an encyclopedia of saddle fit information in her head (what types of saddles fit what types of back shape for the horse and also conformation and preferences of the rider.

[MissAriel]

@sheltona01

As far as the saddle, the best saddle is the one that you do not notice. It is comfortable and gently holds you in a neutral position without interfering with your riding, but gives you support when you need it.

I like this description. While I can’t tell you the exact things that make a saddle fit me better or worse, I do notice the bad ones - both by feel as well as my effectiveness with my aids and also my position when seen from the ground. The saddle I have now it is easy for me to find the “sweet spot” while my last saddle (fit to the horse) was constantly pushing me out of position - mostly into a chair seat.

[walktrot]

AAAHHHHH! That’s what it felt like to me.

When I first got back into riding as a volunteer at a therapy center, I started riding one of BO’s horses in BO’s saddles. Being of the short/fat persuasion I couldn’t find anything that fit and didn’t cause pain. I made a trip to Pelham Saddlery looking for anything that might work, dressage, all purpose, whatever, and within my budget of $1000. I still was feeling various levels of pain, depending on style and brand. The manager came over and pulled a saddle out of a corner. She asked the fitter “have you tried this one yet?” It was well over the budget, but I tried it anyway. That’s when I had that moment. It was a new Albion general purpose saddle, well outside my budget but it was instantly comfortable. I expect it was the twist that made the difference because Albions were known to be wide. I loved that saddle. I stopped by Pelham about 18 months later after I bought my horse and the manager said she had the perfect saddle for me. Another Albion, an Original Comfort special order dressage saddle on consignment, basically new and a terrific bargain. I was in heaven. I still am and that was 16 years ago. Both saddles fit my horse correctly, and the original one is now owned by my riding buddy.

As Tanny98 said, dressage saddles are intensely personal. There are so many variations these days from the older, modestly blocked styles with shallower seats like my Albion, to the newer favorites with really deep seats and plenty of blocking to lock you in on a really big mover. If a saddle fits your horse perfectly but you are in pain, you are likely to be crooked or out of balance or off center or your legs will be in the wrong place. Your horse will feel that and respond as best he can.

There are fitters who are truly experts in fitting the horse, not so much on fitting the rider. You may need to try another fitter, and maybe look online at the major saddlerys and see what is out there.

[Scribbler]

Interesting. As an adult, I’ve ridden in a variety of old beat up h/j lesson saddles, then some old beat up AP and dressage saddles, including those pancake flat 1970s Passiers and a rock hard ancient Stubben. Some of those saddles were too small and some were too slippery, but I soldiered through :). My 2001 Passier Optimum felt good enough when I tried it years ago, and either I lucked out or I adapted to it. It was far and above the best quality saddle I ever sat in up to that point!

However none of these saddles have big thigh blocks or a particularly deep seat. I have never ridden in one of the new style dressage saddles that I can recall. I can see that the more structured the saddle, the more everything would need to be in the right place.

You might experiment with a more open style and see if paradoxically you end up feeling more secure and balanced when there is room to find your own place in the seat.

I find that other people can ride in my saddle as well. But of course the horse does not have a warmblood trot!

[KayGee]

You will know. Riding will feel effortless. You will be able to maintain correct position, without pain, for as long as you want to ride.
I have been where you are and have felt the same. My best advice is to write down what you liked and didn’t like, take pictures, videos, and measurements. How far is the stirrup bar set from the front of the saddle, how long is the flap, is the rise to the pommel steep or a gentle slope, is the pommel high or low, does the seat rise quickly to the cantle, is there a flat spot, is it shallow or deep? Blocks? Internal, external, short, long, velcro? It exists; it’s just tedious.

[CindySanders]

I have ridden so many different horses in as many different saddles, and what I have found is I am comfortable and effective in most saddles that are “well fitted” to the horse. Fitting saddles is as much an art as a “science” and truly good fitters are few and far between.
When I’m not comfy, I look to fit before make.
To me the perfect saddle feels like there is nothing between me and the horse’s back

[Scribbler]

@CindySanders

I have ridden so many different horses in as many different saddles, and what I have found is I am comfortable and effective in most saddles that are “well fitted” to the horse. Fitting saddles is as much an art as a “science” and truly good fitters are few and far between.
When I’m not comfy, I look to fit before make.
To me the perfect saddle feels like there is nothing between me and the horse’s back

Interesting. I had a jump saddle that fit well, restuffed to the horse. An older County. I found it comfortable. Then after a few years it started to rub and make my butt sore. Turned out mare had outgrown it totally, saddle was kind of floating over her back, and shifting right. Stopped using it.

At that point I also realized I could take the sheepskin pad off the dressage saddle. Suddenly I could feel the hind legs moving under my seat bones at a walk. Felt plugged into horse.

So yes I think excellent fit for the horse is crucial to fit for rider.

[outerbanks77]

@CindySanders

To me the perfect saddle feels like there is nothing between me and the horse’s back

Ditto. The best thing I can say about a saddle is that I forget that it’s there. I had a Black Country Vinici that I loved, but my long thigh was always blocked by the knee roll, so I had one built ($$$) with a forward flap and shorter thigh block. It’s total heaven. If I have to do it again, if anything I’ll get an extra 1/2" in both the seat and the flap “forwardness” to decrease the amount I touch against the cantle or the block, so I can just meld with the horse.

I didn’t have the scratch to have another one built for my new horse, so she’s in an older Black Country that fits her, but is a crotch killer and has a too-straight flap. However, I can almost forget about it when horse is going well because it is balanced and fits her well.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Scribbler

Interesting. As an adult, I’ve ridden in a variety of old beat up h/j lesson saddles, then some old beat up AP and dressage saddles, including those pancake flat 1970s Passiers and a rock hard ancient Stubben. Some of those saddles were too small and some were too slippery, but I soldiered through :). My 2001 Passier Optimum felt good enough when I tried it years ago, and either I lucked out or I adapted to it. It was far and above the best quality saddle I ever sat in up to that point!

However none of these saddles have big thigh blocks or a particularly deep seat. I have never ridden in one of the new style dressage saddles that I can recall. I can see that the more structured the saddle, the more everything would need to be in the right place.

You might experiment with a more open style and see if paradoxically you end up feeling more secure and balanced when there is room to find your own place in the seat.

I find that other people can ride in my saddle as well. But of course the horse does not have a warmblood trot!

Your last sentence is very important - until you’ve been on a bigger moving horse (even if it is a small horse), it does make a difference. I’ve also ridden some of those old, hard saddles, and thought they were fine - until I rode in something that actually fit me (and my horse) well. Then they weren’t fine anymore. And now that I have a bouncy mare - and I can’t sit too far back on her, she’s super picky about position of rider - those old flat saddles do NOT work.

OP - it isn’t about huge thigh blocks, it is about finding a saddle with the right fit for your horse and the right fit and balance for you. And that is a super personal thing. I know people who LOVE forward balanced French style saddles - I despise them. I know people who love super deep, bucket scoop seats - I feel locked in and unable to move, not good. Some people need a long thigh block, others need a short one. Some people need a medium twist, others need a narrow twist. So part of it is finding what works for you - and I agree, you’ll know when you ride in it.

[RedHorses]

@sheltona01

As far as the saddle, the best saddle is the one that you do not notice. It is comfortable and gently holds you in a neutral position without interfering with your riding, but gives you support when you need it.

This description works for me too.

I don’t agree with the thought that if it fits the horse properly then it’s all good. I’ve ridden saddles that fit the horse that I couldn’t dismount fast enough.

​​​On the other hand, don’t dismiss saddles that don’t match your ideal parameters either. My older horse’s dressage saddle has a more open seat, and I had the moderate blocks removed to suit my preferences. My younger horse’s dressage saddle has a much deeper seat, and much larger blocks, but I don’t notice either when I am riding. He is a tough fit so I had extremely limited options given my budget, which meant my preferences could slide provided I didn’t notice when riding.

​​​​​​If I do notice his saddle it is invariably because I am letting my position slip…

[Mr.GMan]

“It is one of those “you know it when you feel it” things. For me with my Frank Baines Capriole it was just an a-ha! moment. I was not fighting my position. I sat right in the correct spot very easily. The stirrup bar placement was just right for my legs. The flap was forward enough for my thigh. The seat was open enough that I didn’t feel locked in. It was just easy-peasy. Granted, that was also the saddle that fit my horse well at the time, too, so it was a perfect combination.” This and then some!!!

I had the same problems as you are having with my Schleese and while I found it an ok fit for the first year, I really did not know how much I had been fighting an uphill battle while sitting in it. I asked the opinion of two saddle fitters in my area about the fit of my Schleese and both agreed it is not what my horse or myself needed. They suggested several brands, one of them the Capriole as well. Oh my goodness! It was night and day for my horse and me. It doesn’t have an open seat and I never would have tried it if they hadn’t suggested it. I am so glad they did! I did try out some of the ones who have reps come out and fit you with their saddle, but after working with the two I worked with, it seems they are really only vested in theirs, which is fine, but when they don’t feel my choice is what they want me to do, I am going to stay away from the reps now and just work with the awesome fitters locally!

[Junebug125]

Thanks all!
I absolutely agree that fit for the horse is a prerequisite for rider fit. Even on something well-fitting for the horse, there is so much variation in seat styles available for the “rider interface” that on this particular horse I feel like I need a more specific balance and feel. Maybe I will have to go fully custom-built to get that, but hopefully not!
For now, I’m going to keep sitting in everything I can until I have that aha moment- so far I have found that I prefer a wider twist, short/angled blocks, plastic trees, a “bucket” seat if it has the right pommel angle, and less saddle overall between me and Mr. Saintly. Meanwhile, my wallet is getting more nervous.
Additional perspectives, experiences, ideas, and suggestions are welcome!

[Equibrit]

You don’t notice there is a saddle.