What exactly are my hands asking?

[Zeidant2]

I have only been riding a couple of years so I am still green about a lot of things. I would have to say one of the biggest things i am corrected on most often is my hands. I do rely a little much on my hands so I can benefit from riding with my hands on my hips etc, but I find that I am often hearing “hands together. Don’t drop your hands. Keep your hands on top of the neck over a jump, don’t drop them to the side of the neck. Don’t drop your left rein when you’re turning left! Keep your hands up! Together ! Your hands are way too far apart”

These are the things i do I do with my hands. I know the “box” is the ideal spot. Isn’t it two inches apart from each other in an imaginary box in front of the withers? Correct me if I am wrong. However, many times I won’t notice but apparently they become wider and wider. Or if I turn I tend to drop the one rein significantly lower (again totally without realizing) and my trainer says I drop my hands to the side of my horses neck instead of keeping them forward and right on top of the mane. I understand these are all wrong, but I was wondering if someone can explain what exactly it does? I also have a tendency to cross my reins. I also know terrible and is usually a lack of inside leg (I am working on it I promise haha). I am just interested in how it affects my horse? Many thanks COTHers

[Scribbler]

What’s your question exactly?

Why do you do this? Or why is it wrong?

You do this because you are still a beginner rider. Perhaps you are trying to jump before you really have stable enough equitation? Some folks have better proprioception, that is a sense of where their bodies are in space. Some folks have to work at it more.

As to why it’s wrong, it’s because the horse will respond best to stable and predictable hands. When your reins cross and your hands go every which way, the message to the horse is muddled.

As to how to fix it, the best fix for wandering hands is to glue your elbows to your sides for everything except the release over the jump.

If your elbows are where they belong it’s hard for your hands to get too wrong.

[Zeidant2]

@Scribbler

What’s your question exactly?

Why do you do this? Or why is it wrong?

You do this because you are still a beginner rider. Perhaps you are trying to jump before you really have stable enough equitation? Some folks have better proprioception, that is a sense of where their bodies are in space. Some folks have to work at it more.

As to why it’s wrong, it’s because the horse will respond best to stable and predictable hands. When your reins cross and your hands go every which way, the message to the horse is muddled.

As to how to fix it, the best fix for wandering hands is to glue your elbows to your sides for everything except the release over the jump.

If your elbows are where they belong it’s hard for your hands to get too wrong.

The question was more how exactly am i am I affecting my horse and what’s a good exercise to help keep them still and quiet. I will try to think of my elbows staying at my side!

[Scribbler]

@Zeidant2

The question was more how exactly am i am I affecting my horse and what’s a good exercise to help keep them still and quiet. I will try to think of my elbows staying at my side!

You are affecting your horse by giving confused and muddled aids.

You are not maintaining consistent predictable contact and so will not be able to start influencing how he carries himself collected or extended when the time comes.

You are dropping contact and probably picking it up in a hasty and jabbing kind of way. You are possibly throwing him off balance at times by trying to pull him around a corner by the reins instead of turning off weight aids.

If you are riding a good ole trooper school horse he will keep on truckin’ but never show you his real schooled potential.

If you are riding a more sensitive or hotter horse you may get a runaway, a balk, head tossing, or other expression of resentment.

I’ve never seen anyone with a rock solid seat have totally out of control hands so I m guessing you have some seat and balance issues too, and some of your hand problems stem from overall balance issues like tipping forward.

IMHO I don’t think students should move on to jumping while their basic form on the flat is shaky, whether that is balance or hands or seat. It might be useful to just take some flat lessons until you get this fixed.

Sit up straight. Drop your thigh down the horse. Get a correct rein length and then glue your elbows to your sides. Obviously your hands will still follow the mouth at the walk, but at the posting trot they should stay immobile and not rise and fall with your body posting.

Hold the reins correctly and securely. One thing guaranteed to muddle your hands is if the reins gradually slip through your fingers and get longer and Ionger. If you have trouble seeing where your hands are then get a pair of those rubber eventing reins that have different colored rein stops on them.

When you practice two point, stick with one type of release for now. If you are doing crest release you could tie a red ribbon in the mane right where your hands should go. Then put them there.

Are you only riding in lessons? If so get more saddle time to get better muscle memory. You could spend an hour walking and trotting patterns with your elbows at your sides.

[merrygoround]

@Zeidant2

The question was more how exactly am i am I affecting my horse and what’s a good exercise to help keep them still and quiet. I will try to think of my elbows staying at my side!

However, while elbows remain at your side, they cannot be locked there. Elbows are the shock absorbers between your body and your hands which communicate with the horse’s mouth. So you need to be in a balance with your body that allows you to disassociate your arms and your hands from your body.

When moving to jumping position, again you are dealing with an entirely different dynamic. But here again you need to be able to be sufficiently stable in your body, so that hands and arms again belong to the horse’s mouth. The ideal situation is the automatic release, which is seldom taught today. In your situation, I would refrain from jumping until your flat work was consistent, and then I would go to crest release.

[Scribbler]

@merrygoround

However, while elbows remain at your side, they cannot be locked there. Elbows are the shock absorbers between your body and your hands which communicate with the horse’s mouth. So you need to be in a balance with your body that allows you to disassociate your arms and your hands from your body.

When moving to jumping position, again you are dealing with an entirely different dynamic. But here again you need to be able to be sufficiently stable in your body, so that hands and arms again belong to the horse’s mouth. The ideal situation is the automatic release, which is seldom taught today. In your situation, I would refrain from jumping until your flat work was consistent, and then I would go to crest release.

Absolutely about not locking the elbows. I was more proposing this as an exercise to help remember position.

I had a lot of help from my horse in fixing some lazy hands last spring. I was riding her on the trails in a sidepull and when the grass started growing she started to dive to graze.

Once her head was down I had no traction at all so I could only survive by sitting up straight, dropping my thigh, carrying my hands correctly and being extremely proactive about bending and lateral work.

When the grass got shoulder high I gave in and went to a bit or mechanical hackamore which last rather surprised her when she first hit the end of that.

Even so I still need correct hands and position or we’ll end up in a ditch.

[retiredhorse]

Long-time lurker, currently not riding due to retired horse… feeling like making sure I remember some riding basics…

@Zeidant2

These are the things i do I do with my hands. I know the “box” is the ideal spot. Isn’t it two inches apart from each other in an imaginary box in front of the withers? Correct me if I am wrong. However, many times I won’t notice but apparently they become wider and wider.

Your hands should be as far apart as the width of your horse’s mouth, generally about 5 inches. I don’t know if your trainer is telling you to THINK it’s 2 inches because your hands keep widening (or maybe they mean about 2 inches higher than the wither? so you remember to bend your elbows).

I did not learn the “box” idea, but you can take a short crop and hold it between your thumbs (parallel to your body, across/over the withers), after you have gathered up your reins, to keep your hands from drifting, so you get a feel for where they should be (as wide as the horse’s mouth), in addition to marking your reins so you know what length those should be also (so you know where your elbows ought to be). With the crop held that way, it also prevents you from dropping your hands below the neck, though they can still be too low.

Or if I turn I tend to drop the one rein significantly lower (again totally without realizing) and my trainer says I drop my hands to the side of my horses neck instead of keeping them forward and right on top of the mane. I understand these are all wrong, but I was wondering if someone can explain what exactly it does? I also have a tendency to cross my reins. I also know terrible and is usually a lack of inside leg (I am working on it I promise haha). I am just interested in how it affects my horse? Many thanks COTHers

The horse should be between your leg and your hand. If you are crooked, you cause the horse to become crooked. If your hands are too far apart, you create too much space for the horse to not travel straight; it also puts you in a bad position, because, for example, how do you open a rein to turn, if your hands are already “open”. If your hands are uneven, you cause the horse to tilt his head/neck, and there’s a good chance your shoulders (and elbows) are also uneven, putting you and your horse off balance. If you cross your reins, you are sending the horse conflicting aids (instead of pushing the horse around the inside leg to a balancing outside rein, you’re using the inside rein both to turn and hold him out, which is confusing for the horse) and not engaging him from behind.

Also, remember that dropping your hands does not make the horse drop his head; that only breaks the connection to his mouth. If you’re dropping your hands over a jump, I think there’s a good chance this isn’t a real automatic release, but that your hands are not releasing at all and are down by the withers, with your shoulders in front of your hands – that puts you and your horse off balance and catches him in the mouth in the air. Essentially, trying to ride a horse using your hands/reins instead of your leg makes you less or non-functional; you need to balance yourself, without balancing off the horse’s mouth, so you can balance your horse. A lot of this is muscle memory, so you have to retrain yourself to recognize what correct positioning of your hands feel like.

[Scribbler]

Good points. Hands can get busy when the horse/rider combo aren’t working off seat and leg aids.

For instance the horse should be turning primarily off seat aids (weight, outer thigh) with rein only as backup as needed. IME a good turn is off the seat with the outside rein regulating how small the turn is, and the inside rein doing nothing much.

I was looking at my hands yesterday and seeing that it is functional for me and my horse to ride with my hands basically hip width, or perhaps wiast width, that is pointing straight ahead not sloping inwards very much. Her neck and shoulders are wide enough that having my hands 4 inches apart would be kind of meaningless in relation to her mouth because the reins would be tugged out by her neck anyhow.

I am going to have to double check this though. It is possible I ride with my hands a bit wide because my boobs get in the way! But I also feel that this way I have a direct line from elbow to rein both from side view and top view. I also carry them out in front of me, not letting them sink towards the withers.

I feel my hands have become quite stable but also that it was a long process getting here. Stability is really important. Your hand should stay where you put it until you need to move it on purpose.

If you can’t control your own hands good luck controling a horse!

[MtnDrmz]

I would ask your trainer all of these questions specifically. Maybe ask her if you can take part of your lesson to go over the basics, goals, and issues that are occurring. There are some basics of good hands that are discussed above, but honestly, different horses need different things and trainers could have a strategy you aren’t aware of. Your trainer could be telling you to lift your hand because you do actually drop them, or your trainer could be telling you that you are dropping them because the lesson horse goes with an extra high hand for what ever reason (maybe it’s learned to pull down and root a bit). There are so many nuances with how your hands talk to each horse that it would be really hard to give you a full answer that is immediately useful for your ride on a horse we’ve never met. A video might be more helpful.

It does all come back to your hands will be quiet when your base is strong, and you are able to separate body sections (ex: tightening your legs without locking up the rest of your body, or keeping your arms still while your hips move and follow), but that does take a while. Have a good talk with your trainer and let them know your questions, and really try to have them break this down for you.

[retiredhorse]

@MtnDrmz

It does all come back to your hands will be quiet when your base is strong, and you are able to separate body sections (ex: tightening your legs without locking up the rest of your body, or keeping your arms still while your hips move and follow), but that does take a while. Have a good talk with your trainer and let them know your questions, and really try to have them break this down for you.

Agree completely.

Also a better question might be “what do you WANT your hands to be asking”? And working toward that instead of towards not doing something. I found it easier with a trainer who explained what I should be doing, rather than telling me not to do something or not explaining how to fix something at all. Video might help too, so you can visualize what you’re doing.

@Scribbler, I haven’t had an issue with boobs in the way or a crest that is super wide, but “hands as far apart as the horse’s mouth” is a general starting place, until one gets a feel for when it feels right on whatever horse you might be on. It’s not like one’s hands are static and always 5" apart…I think of it like “heels down”, where the goal isn’t to have one’s heels down as far as possible, but to get one’s leg around the horse and weight in the irons-- but green riders don’t necessarily grasp that concept right away, so you tell them to put their heels down.

Like, with green horses, it’s often easier to ride them with wider hands until they learn to balance and go straight; that little bit of wiggle room is ok (and you make your hands narrower as they learn to go straighter), but that’s not pertinent to OP right now.

Function >> form, but until one gets functional, working on form (core/base strength and balance, not a “pose”) puts you in the right position to become a functional rider with independent aids. Ideally.

[Scribbler]

@retiredhorse

Agree completely.

Also a better question might be “what do you WANT your hands to be asking”? And working toward that instead of towards not doing something. I found it easier with a trainer who explained what I should be doing, rather than telling me not to do something or not explaining how to fix something at all. Video might help too, so you can visualize what you’re doing.

@Scribbler, I haven’t had an issue with boobs in the way or a crest that is super wide, but “hands as far apart as the horse’s mouth” is a general starting place, until one gets a feel for when it feels right on whatever horse you might be on. It’s not like one’s hands are static and always 5" apart…I think of it like “heels down”, where the goal isn’t to have one’s heels down as far as possible, but to get one’s leg around the horse and weight in the irons-- but green riders don’t necessarily grasp that concept right away, so you tell them to put their heels down.

Like, with green horses, it’s often easier to ride them with wider hands until they learn to balance and go straight; that little bit of wiggle room is ok (and you make your hands narrower as they learn to go straighter), but that’s not pertinent to OP right now.

Function >> form, but until one gets functional, working on form (core/base strength and balance, not a “pose”) puts you in the right position to become a functional rider with independent aids. Ideally.

Yes absolutely. I was just thinking aloud in response to another post, not really trying to give advice for the OP. I will give it a try today and see where my hands really are.

It is possible maresy developed a preference for wider hands in our green years and we never transitioned off it. Or that it is an emergency readiness position on my part for grass diving season! Pushing your elbow into your side gives you some leverage to block grass diving.

But agreed, not relevant to OP!

Edited to add: ok I took a good look at what I do while riding today. My resting position for hands is nowhere near as wide as I thought. Maybe 5 inches and maresy takes a 5 inch bit so bang on. Reins go straight line inwards from hands touch the neck and to the bit. Boobs don’t get in the way with the heavy duty sports bra on! Interesting to me to see how wrong I am in describing something I do every day! Is why I always want to see video when people have questions about their position.

[BHTC]

@Zeidant2

I have only been riding a couple of years so I am still green about a lot of things. I would have to say one of the biggest things i am corrected on most often is my hands. I do rely a little much on my hands so I can benefit from riding with my hands on my hips etc, but I find that I am often hearing “hands together. Don’t drop your hands. Keep your hands on top of the neck over a jump, don’t drop them to the side of the neck. Don’t drop your left rein when you’re turning left! Keep your hands up! Together ! Your hands are way too far apart”

When you drop your hands, you are cutting off the connection to the hind end, making the horse “stuck”. When your hands are too wide, you will encourage your horse’s head to drop, probably behind vertical, creating a false frame and a hollow back. If your hands are doing both of these things, your horse will probably be a bit fussy, going in and out of BTV and ATV, not creating an established connection. When you go to jump, it sounds like your base support isn’t strong enough, hence your hands compensating for what your leg is unable to do, which is why you’re leaning on the neck too much, or dropping your hands too low. If I was your trainer, based off this post, I would nix the jumping for a while and work on your half seat, work on the lunge line without reins (but wanting your hands to be in the correct position as if you were holding them), etc.

These things all come with time and patience, and the best way to get better, IME, is to not over think it. You know where your hands should be, they will get there. Depending on how steady your mount is, you can get a crop and place it between your hands horizontally so you can’t break your wrists, or widen, or close them. You could also bridge your reins. There are a lot of fixes your trainer could offer you.

[Zeidant2]

Thank you all for your responses. I definitely do not mind flatting for as long as I need to establish a more solid foundation. I will certainly work on encorporatinf more exercises to work on my hands and seat!

[Zeidant2]

@BHTC

When you drop your hands, you are cutting off the connection to the hind end, making the horse “stuck”. When your hands are too wide, you will encourage your horse’s head to drop, probably behind vertical, creating a false frame and a hollow back. If your hands are doing both of these things, your horse will probably be a bit fussy, going in and out of BTV and ATV, not creating an established connection. When you go to jump, it sounds like your base support isn’t strong enough, hence your hands compensating for what your leg is unable to do, which is why you’re leaning on the neck too much, or dropping your hands too low. If I was your trainer, based off this post, I would nix the jumping for a while and work on your half seat, work on the lunge line without reins (but wanting your hands to be in the correct position as if you were holding them), etc.

These things all come with time and patience, and the best way to get better, IME, is to not over think it. You know where your hands should be, they will get there. Depending on how steady your mount is, you can get a crop and place it between your hands horizontally so you can’t break your wrists, or widen, or close them. You could also bridge your reins. There are a lot of fixes your trainer could offer you.

i am almost embarrassed to ask, but how is the correct way to bridge your reins? I have heard “bridge your reins and put one hand on our hip” but never with two hands. I just read many threads about it and it seems to be an excellent exercise to quiet hands. I feel really silly that I have not tried this. Is it basically holding the reins like normal but crossing them over so your right hand is holding the left rein and the left hand is also holding the right rein?

[retiredhorse]

To bridge your reins, hold them like normal and at the desired length, cross one hand over the neck and pick up the bight (excess rein) close to your other hand. Bring that hand back across the neck to its normal position, letting the bight slide through as needed. Now you are holding to both reins AND have a small loop on top of the neck. Pick up the end of that loop with your other hand, still holding the rein-like-normal. Should end up with both reins in both hands and a “bridge”/loop over the wither. You can practice this off the horse also, if it’s confusing on the horse. Just attach reins to something. Probably will make more sense to get someone to show you also.

Holding a crop across the withers & between the thumbs is a similar idea, to hold the hands even, especially with the tendency to lower one hand too much.

[lesson_junkie]

I just skimmed the above posts, so forgive me if I’m plowing old ground.

If your hands are dropping, it’s my guess that your eyes are dropping first. Don’t look down. When your eyes drop, everything else follows, and then your heels come up.

The exercise with the crop should be useful to help you feel exactly what your hands are trying to do without actually looking at them.

As said above, as your seat becomes stronger, your hands will be more quiet, and you will be able to keep a consistent contact/position. It can be frustrating, because the only real fix is more riding time.

Keep the faith, have fun, good luck!