What is an appropriate fence?

[Desert_Topaz]

We’ve had discussions about inappropriate fences, now I think it would be helpful if we could come up with what we actually think is appropriate. Using the XC Guidelines and rules what do you see as in appropriate and inappropriate for BN, N, T?

Some have mentioned elsewhere that terrain is a concern. Perhaps something like, “BN jumps should be so many strides from the top, or bottom of, an incline.” And light, “BN jumps should not go from dark to light or vice versa”. What would be appropriate for those things at N and T?

Something I noticed looking through the guidelines:

At BN:
oxers and tables can have a front height of 2’5", back height of 2’7", top spread of 2’9", base spread of 3’8" and a minimum width of jumpable face of 16’

Also at BN
a corner has front height 2’5", back height of 2’7", max width of wide end 2’9", max 15 degree angle, minimum width of jumpable face 12’

Now of course, according to the rules, the corner isn’t allowed. But looking at the numbers, it wouldn’t be any bigger than an allowable table, and would be much smaller on the pointy end. It’s really just a pointy table. Looking at the measurements, corners like this should be okay with horses and riders. If not okay, what about if the size was reduced, to like 2’3"? It seems to be some more interesting jumps could be put out, if their height is reduced so the jump itself is the challenge, not the height. Of course then in a couple years they might decide that now those jumps are okay maxed out.

Anyway, thoughts?

[Duckz]

Honestly I think what makes a BN course easy or tough isn’t the jumps (table vs. baby corner vs. oxer) but the ditches, banks, and water questions. I don’t think your average BN horse is really registering a 2’7 pointy table or max height spread out on xc. But the average BN horse maybe gets spooky at ditches or has a problem with down banks or is still iffy at water.

I do think you’re right about light to dark type questions, that can make things tough at any level and from what I’ve seen course designers are sensitive to that sort of thing. On the other hand, since shadows change throughout the day could be difficult to control for that factor 100%. I have seen a novice ditch that went from light to dark cause a lot of problems (and subsequently got removed the following year). I’ve also seen light to dark question at Training level that needed to be ridden well, but at that point the horses didn’t seem to have an issue.

So much depends on having a competent, sympathetic course designer. It would be difficult for USEA to attempt to regulate every last detail related to course design. And I think the current feedback system goes a long way towards letting organizers know what worked and what didn’t. Sorry if this is rambling, I’m one margarita in and just putting some thoughts out there

[Highflyer]

I actually don’t think you could build a BN or even N corner according to the specifications and have it actually ask the question a corner is designed to ask, so I’m not sure what the point is (even most of the Training corners I’ve jumped are basically pointy tables.)

Basically I think BN and N should not contain anything that the average field hunter or hunter derby horse couldn’t handle. A horse with a canter stride of anywhere from 10-14 feet should theoretically be able to canter around the entire course and not have to be adjusted. (which is not to say they won’t come back to a trot in places etc., just that it should flow the way a hunter course does.) At Training you can start to require more adjustability, slightly faster reactions, etc.-- because since the horse (and rider) have a solid foundation it is brave and forward and looking for its fences.

My horses tend to be pretty green when they do BN. I want to see the vast majority of the fences be straightforward and gallopy-- stuff they can jump out of stride, that is mostly natural looking and not hugely decorated with corn stalks or stuff that will wave around, and that only asks one question at a time (i.e. only straightness, only light to dark, only terrain, only shocking white table). Ditches should be shallow and water should not have a fence less than three strides before/ after (a very small bank out is ok). Banks/ drops/ ditches-- again, no fence within 3-4 strides and preferably 5. I actually do not think BN fences EVER need to be “interesting” even if they are smaller than max! The height difference is not helpful at this level. Very few horses find 2’7 challenging-- it’s everything else that is challenging!

Novice should still have a majority of just gallopy fences and still only one question per fence. Revetted ditch is ok but still shouldn’t be a black hole, or at the bottom of a hill, etc. Small bank out of the water, numbered fences 3 or 4 strides out from water or a bank, or ditch etc. Maybe one non-max, basic, two or three stride combination that is A/B. Still stuff that can be jumped out of stride and is recognizably jumps.

Training-- bigger ditch, half coffin or very spread out full coffin, drop into water, corner, non-maxed skinny, etc. Maybe half galloping fences and half tougher stuff. A T horse should be able to adjust it’s canter stride somewhat, jump a fence from a slightly more specific place-- not just aim for the middle of a 12 foot fence-- and jump combinations that are actually combinations.

[EventerAJ]

Highflyer you said it very well, specifically:

My horses tend to be pretty green when they do BN. I want to see the vast majority of the fences be straightforward and gallopy-- stuff they can jump out of stride, that is mostly natural looking and not hugely decorated with corn stalks or stuff that will wave around, and that only asks one question at a time (i.e. only straightness, only light to dark, only terrain, only shocking white table). Ditches should be shallow and water should not have a fence less than three strides before/ after (a very small bank out is ok). Banks/ drops/ ditches-- again, no fence within 3-4 strides and preferably 5. I actually do not think BN fences EVER need to be “interesting” even if they are smaller than max! The height difference is not helpful at this level. Very few horses find 2’7 challenging-- it’s everything else that is challenging!

BN should be simple with only one question at a time, just as you said. It’s fine to ask a variety of questions BUT NOT AT THE SAME FENCE. Multiple questions at once is what green horses/riders find difficult; they are still learning to master basic concepts and under the stress of competition the level does not need to be complicated.

[Ajierene]

In asking the question of how appropriate a fence is, not only should the horse be taken into consideration, but the rider as well. A baby corner may not look much different to a horse, but that green rider that walked the course earlier in the day may be terrified of the ‘corner’. For this reason, I think some jumps should not be in beginner novice - corners, trakehners, brush jumps (because the brush can be higher than max height).

I have seen ditches that work. The ones that work have a big log on either side of a narrow and very shallow ditch. The rider is not worried about it and the horse does not even really register that they went over a ditch. It has the level of difficulty for the rider (OMG DITCH!) without it being a real ditch. If one is worried about the same issue a rider may deal with at a corner, then make a rule to take the ditch out. That does not bother me.

[trubandloki]

Great post, Highflyer.

[kcmel]

My greenie is fine with ditches, banks, and water, but the shockingly white table…that would be a more of a problem (I don’t however expect courses to be designed to avoid MY specific issues. Although it would be nice :)). So it really depends on the horse as to what is inviting. I agree that all the decorations and necessary distractions should wait until Novice. I have seen these at elementary and intro level. Although maybe if they are introduced when the jumps are tiny that is better? (I’m glad I am not a course designer!)

[subk]

[QUOTE=kcmel;7831212]
…Although maybe if they are introduced when the jumps are tiny that is better? [/QUOTE]
I realize your are talking about decorations but I would say that concept–“maybe we should introduce “X” when the jumps are smaller”–is why we are hearing people say we need to make the lower levels more technical so our horses will be better upper level horses.

Algebra in not easier when you use smaller numbers if you don’t understand the basic concepts involved in the first place. If 7th graders can’t do quadratic equations no one thinks, “well, if we start quadradic equations at 5th grade, but use smaller numbers then the kids will be better at them when they get to 7th grade.” No…if kids are struggling with quadradic equations in 7th grade you go back a make sure their fundamentals of adding, substracting, multiplcation and division are strong!

Maybe the reason horse and riders are struggling with the move up to Preliminary isn’t because they haven’t jumped coffins at 2’6" but because they missed out on some building block fundamentals.

[Highflyer]

I think that BN and N should be about introducing the IDEA of xc to horses and riders-- that is, teaching them to go out on course by themselves, maintain control in an open area, and jump simple fences at the advertised height. The “technicality” of the course should equal the technicality of the dressage test, which at BN/N is intentionally very basic so that horses of almost any level of experience/ talent can manage it.