Huh? Have the USEF drug rules changed recently to prohibit these substances?
Or are you talking about FEI rules?
I don’t doubt that was the theory, just pointing out that there is a lot of inappropriate use of pharmaceuticals, supplements, etc. based on a lack of understanding.In the context of international competition, perhaps it is wiser to err on the side of caution, eh?
You must have led a sheltered life if you weren’t aware of those methods.
[QUOTE=DMK;3464211]
Extremes on both ends are never a good thing. I’ll happily sit here and tell you I think the current USEF rules allowing obscene amounts of dex and stacking of all but 2 particular NSAIDs is an idea taken too far to one extreme. And I’ll just as happily sit here and say that the FEI has found the other extreme and taken it too far. Neither seem to be particularly good for the horse at this point.
Amazingly enough we seem to have the ability to detect fairly minute levels of any substance we can test for. It is not a giant club we are using here, it is an instrument with finesse. This means we have the ability to identify trace and residual amounts, substances which are in no way affectig the performance of the horse at the time of competition. We wouldn’t even be the first to do this, many racing jurisdictions embraced this years ago. But if we are at the point where apparently no lab on the planet can detect a relatively benign substance like equi-block except THIS particular lab, and we are willing to kick a rider out of the individual finals, based on that… All I can say is it isn’t just politics that has entered the Silly Season.
Establish threshholds. Defend them scientifically as non-performance enhancing. Publish them for ALL the world to see. And report what levels were found when horses come up positive.[/QUOTE]
My statement regarding “hay water and oats” was not an endorsement of the FEI policy. Simply a statement that there is nothing unclear about zero tolerance. Personally, if I need two alieve after my cross country ride, I think my horse should be entitled as well. But according to the rules he is not even entitled to a liniment bath. I don’t agree with zero tolerance, but once you open the barn door, you have to decide what, how much, when, etc.
Given that banned substances are being used under a zero tolerance policy, what would happen if some substances were allowed?
Exactly, but it has been done in many racing jurisdictions. We have the technology… we can rebuild this ma… wait, wrong overacted drama… 
Given that banned substances are being used under a zero tolerance policy, what would happen if some substances were allowed?
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!
Or at least if the thresholds were established and published and when a positive was verified the whole world could see exactly how far over that threshold the result was. Would this system be perfect? No. Would people still try to game the system? Yes. Would they succeed? I have no doubt. Would it seem just slightly less ridiculous than the current process? It’s hard to see how it couldn’t…
By the same token- under a zero tolerance policy, I think people could potentially get more creative about trying to use stuff on their horses- it fuels a drive to find other things that work that “don’t test” which could also be potentially dangerous. That’s probably a relatively weak argument, but it is something we’ve seen in the horse world.
[QUOTE=S A McKee;3464268]
You must have led a sheltered life if you weren’t aware of those methods.[/QUOTE]
I guess I just don’t hang around cheaters. As for sheltered, I have owned and campaigned grand prix horses in international competition. Have you?
Do you really believe that “many” burned their horse’s legs?
I am not going to argue with you guys. I just really hate the lynch mob mentality. But that should not be surprising given that we have people like Melanie Taylor-Smith saying outrageous and ill-informd things, even before the conclusion of the investigation.
[QUOTE=caffeinated;3464472]
By the same token- under a zero tolerance policy, I think people could potentially get more creative about trying to use stuff on their horses- it fuels a drive to find other things that work that “don’t test” which could also be potentially dangerous. That’s probably a relatively weak argument, but it is something we’ve seen in the horse world.[/QUOTE]
Sigh. You are correct. It is probably no different than under age drinking or central american drug smuggling.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3464250]
In the context of international competition, perhaps it is wiser to err on the side of caution, eh?[/QUOTE]
Without a doubt. As I said, if I were considering using a cream or liniment with a prohibited substance in it (and there were no alternative), I would ask the advice of the proper authorities and find out how much withdrawal time, if any, is required.
[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;3463725]
It required many more hours of TLC for each horse and sometimes our horses would still be sore and not compete as well but that’s the risk you take. At least we never failed a drug test. [/QUOTE]
“our horses would still be sore”
See, this is not okay with me, and the fact that I had the righteous claim of never having failed a drug test certainly does not justify this.
I honestly can’t believe these Olympic level horses are that dull that they need an irritant just to get a little more snap. Have you seen those beasts??!! There’s not a lazy one out there. I will go as far as to admit they have been prepped their whole lives, at various degrees of innocence, but I will not buy into what is being supposed about these particular charges. And do not assume I don’t know what I’m talking about.
DMK, I have agreed with everything you’ve said. Reexamine the no foreign substance rule, our horses deserve the same protection from the normal wear and tear of a world class athlete that the humans are allowed. Positive tests such as this one (not all) are bad apples that are directly affecting the comfort and well-being of every single horse on the International circuit. This is not acceptable, and anyone on board with the sensationalist view of this issue- (and now that I’m aware of it I am pissed with MTS’s coverage)- is a direct contributor to this biased, inhumane extreme that withholds the same basic pain relief that every single other athlete at the Olympic games is relying on.
Ugh. Off soapbox and switching to decaf now . . .
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3464474]
I guess I just don’t hang around cheaters. Do you really believe that “many” burned their horse’s legs?
I am not going to argue with you guys. I just really hate the lynch mob mentality. But that should not be surprising given that we have people like Melanie Taylor-Smith saying outrageous and ill-informd things, even before the conclusion of the investigation.[/QUOTE]
Once again, I wasn’t “lynching” anyone! Just informing people of the method that SOME jumpers use. If you read, I changed that statement because I realize that it may not be right to say that “many” of them do it because I truly don’t know how MANY jumpers use this method. Mistake on my part. I hardly doubt burning is used during competition though, I believe it is used in schooling the horses so that hitting the rails doesn’t happen often in competition. I can’t see how you could do this to a horse more than once in a blue moon without showing visible signs that you’re doing it. (i.e. blistering and swelling) Someone please correct me if I’m wrong…
Oh - HEY - hold yer horses there! I’m not trying to be “righteous” or anything. I just wanted to say that some people will try to stick by the rules and may suffer some consequences for it and other people will not, but that’s part of sports and every individual has to decide which side they want to be on . I certainly don’t imply by “sore” that our horses were lame. They would have been pulled from competition if that was the case, but you can’t tell me that not one single athlete (human and/or horse) wouldn’t be “sore” after jumping 2-3 rounds at 1.50 a day. We just didn’t ever want to even risk failing a drug test so we only used very natural (ice, water, hot rags, massage, etc.) to give relief. It was possible, it can be done, it’s just a choice - that was my point.
[QUOTE=jse;3464559]
I can’t see how you could do this to a horse more than once in a blue moon without showing visible signs that you’re doing it. (i.e. blistering and swelling) Someone please correct me if I’m wrong…[/QUOTE]
Correct 
I know GDQ, but, the swimmers are sore, the gymnasts are sore, everyone is sore and their probably downing a bottle of advil a week and keeping Dr. Been Gay in business.
Your post wasn’t actually the sensationalism I was talking about it . . . that was probably a different tirade related to certain trolls that were polluting the waters yesterday, and others that just insist it’s unheard of for someone to afford their horse some relief from pain.
I have no doubt that some people use capsaicin in a vile fashion to try to get jumpers to be more careful… but I am also skeptical that it works all that well. I recommend people try it: rough up your own skin, slather your legs with your capsaicin preparation of choice, and see if it makes you a better jumper.
On the other hand, I am intrigued by the evidence I dug up that suggests that it may not only ease arthritis pain, but actually limit/prevent damage to the joint, as adequan/legend do.
[QUOTE=jse;3464559]
Once again, I wasn’t “lynching” anyone! Just informing people of the method that SOME jumpers use. If you read, I changed that statement because I realize that it may not be right to say that “many” of them do it because I truly don’t know how MANY jumpers use this method. Mistake on my part. I hardly doubt burning is used during competition though, I believe it is used in schooling the horses so that hitting the rails doesn’t happen often in competition. I can’t see how you could do this to a horse more than once in a blue moon without showing visible signs that you’re doing it. (i.e. blistering and swelling) Someone please correct me if I’m wrong…[/QUOTE]
JSE, I know, I know…apologies, I was not responding to your post, but that of others. And in response to McKee, I should have pointed out that no one was alleging that many people did this (and that you had revised your post).
Regarding Bluemoon’s earlier question re the likelihood of lab or sample contamination given that we have 4 positives… please note that to date we have the results from only 15 of the showjumpers (and all the dressage horses and eventers), and that of the SJ horses tested, only 1 from each medal team. So they got 4 positives from 15 horses for the exact same substance, allegedly used by riders from 4 different countries? I suppose if everyone is using that same liniment, it’s possible.
But of course the FEI is its own PR nightmare - -as the Secretary General immediately declares:
“This is certainly a serious blow to our sport,” . . . It is serious because in all four cases the positive result was for the same substance. I’m not sure if we can call it a trend, but it adds to the seriousness of the case."
He might consider that it is a bit odd that such a high percentage tested positive for the same substance, and at the very least might have waited for the results of he B sample and the conclusion of the investigation. And I don’t think, in this circumstance, one can conclude that multiple positives means the problem is more “serious;” it may very well reflect the fact that more than one person was using a rather innocuous liniment that was generally viewed as not being a problem, and which had never resulted in a positive test in previous competitions.
[QUOTE=dags;3464538]
“our horses would still be sore”
See, this is not okay with me, and the fact that I had the righteous claim of never having failed a drug test certainly does not justify this.
I honestly can’t believe these Olympic level horses are that dull that they need an irritant just to get a little more snap. Have you seen those beasts??!! There’s not a lazy one out there. I will go as far as to admit they have been prepped their whole lives, at various degrees of innocence, but I will not buy into what is being supposed about these particular charges. And do not assume I don’t know what I’m talking about.
DMK, I have agreed with everything you’ve said. Reexamine the no foreign substance rule, our horses deserve the same protection from the normal wear and tear of a world class athlete that the humans are allowed. Positive tests such as this one (not all) are bad apples that are directly affecting the comfort and well-being of every single horse on the International circuit. This is not acceptable, and anyone on board with the sensationalist view of this issue- (and now that I’m aware of it I am pissed with MTS’s coverage)- is a direct contributor to this biased, inhumane extreme that withholds the same basic pain relief that every single other athlete at the Olympic games is relying on.
Ugh. Off soapbox and switching to decaf now . . .[/QUOTE]
I agree with every word you have written, but the fact that the FEI needs a change of policy is a separate issue. Rule was broken. Everyone in that game should know how to play it by now - meaning if you stretch the limits, you may get caught. Even the use of a topical may get you in trouble.
I have the ultimate sympathy if samples are/were contaminated. I have no sympathy for the excuse that a topical was used and has been used in the past and everyone uses it and no positive test results have occurred in the past. If you decide to walk a fine line you must be prepared for the stiff breeze to come along.
I find it interesting that many people are automatically believing that this product was being used in a nefarious way. Even MST on the broadcast said that the product is used to make horse’s leg sting so they jump higher. No mention of the way it is used so commonly and with the intent to help horses, not hurt them. Sort of like Ben Gay for us. Maybe, just maybe, these guys used the product in a common (albeit stupid, since it’s banned under FEI rules) way.
The product is still illegal under the rules and they should still be eliminated from the competition. But the assumption that the product is definitely being used in an evil way is saddening.
[QUOTE=BLBGP;3464640]
I find it interesting that many people are automatically believing that this product was being used in a nefarious way. Even MST on the broadcast said that the product is used to make horse’s leg sting so they jump higher. No mention of the way it is used so commonly and with the intent to help horses, not hurt them. Sort of like Ben Gay for us. Maybe, just maybe, these guys used the product in a common (albeit stupid, since it’s banned under FEI rules) way.
The product is still illegal under the rules and they should still be eliminated from the competition. But the assumption that the product is definitely being used in an evil way is saddening.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone is assuming that. I know I’m not, for sure I bet you the athletes that tested positive used this product the way it is intended to be used.
I had no earthly idea that some people even did this until it was confirmed to me yesterday by someone I know…
But apparently there are lots of “tricks” out there. (i.e. velcro boots without padding, carpet tacking jumps etc…)
Horse Sport Ireland - Statement on Denis Lynch
August 20, 2008 — HORSE Sport Ireland (HSI) was informed by the world equestrian governing body, the FEI, at 2:15 p.m. Hong Kong time today (Thursday), that Irish Olympic rider Denis Lynch’s horse ‘Lantinus’ had tested positive for a banned substance and that as a result he would be suspended from taking part in tonight’s show jumping final.
Denis Lynch and Horse Sport Ireland officials attended a preliminary hearing with the FEI a short time ago and were informed that the substance found in the horse was called capsaicin.
At the tribunal the FEI indicated that this substance was an ingredient in some products in regular use. Subsequently it was identified by Denis Lynch as an ingredient in a product called “Equi-block” used by him on his horse. Equi-block is a product used in similar circumstances to ‘Deep Heat’ used on humans and Denis Lynch explained to the tribunal that he commonly applies Equiblock to the horse’s lower back prior to exercise.
Denis Lynch holds up the tub of a Equi-Block, which contains capsaicin, during yesterday’s press conference in Hong Kong. The label claims that it will NOT TEST POSITIVE and vet Marcus Swain invited journalists to rub the lotion into their own skin.
Following this preliminary hearing today the FEI informed Denis Lynch that he remained suspended for tonight’s competition.
The FEI have subsequently confirmed that three other riders due to jump in tonight’s final at Hong Kong have also been suspended as a result of the same substance being found in their horses.
Horse Sport Ireland has confirmed that they submitted a urine sample from the horse to a voluntary screening testing process made available by the FEI on the horse’s arrival in Hong Kong and the results of this test were negative.
The horse has also been tested on numerous occasions, including following many of its recent victories, and has tested negative on all these occasions.
