What is Capsaicin?

[QUOTE=BLBGP;3464640]
I find it interesting that many people are automatically believing that this product was being used in a nefarious way. Even MST on the broadcast said that the product is used to make horse’s leg sting so they jump higher. No mention of the way it is used so commonly and with the intent to help horses, not hurt them. Sort of like Ben Gay for us. Maybe, just maybe, these guys used the product in a common (albeit stupid, since it’s banned under FEI rules) way.

The product is still illegal under the rules and they should still be eliminated from the competition. But the assumption that the product is definitely being used in an evil way is saddening.[/QUOTE]

I am also not making the assumption that the use was nefarious. Regardless of purpose it was against the rules as they stand and when you chose to participate, you accept the rules.

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;3464600]
I agree with every word you have written, but the fact that the FEI needs a change of policy is a separate issue. Rule was broken. Everyone in that game should know how to play it by now - meaning if you stretch the limits, you may get caught. Even the use of a topical may get you in trouble.

I have the ultimate sympathy if samples are/were contaminated. I have no sympathy for the excuse that a topical was used and has been used in the past and everyone uses it and no positive test results have occurred in the past. If you decide to walk a fine line you must be prepared for the stiff breeze to come along.[/QUOTE]

I like the stiff breeze analogy :slight_smile:

But I’m not sure how I feel about a horse that has undergone numerous drug tests all year long and, continuing to use the same theraputic treatment it always has, suddenly gets pulled from the Olympics hours before the event. I’ve always used paprika, and stopped about 10 days out from a show. Back when I was a constant user of Equi-block, I believe I used it right at the show, though I stopped the paprika, because of the capsacin (I’m sick of trying to remember how to spell that word, sry :/)

So to me the impression was that injested=bad, topical=okay. I’m certainly no FEI competitor, and I admit this would certainly make me consider the equi-block use more carefully, but if he’s been using it all year long, getting tested all the time, horse is going GREAT . . . you see? I don’t think it’s fair. I certainly don’t think it’s fair to get DQ’d before the whole thing is even settled, he may never get that Olympic chance again.

It’s one thing to walk the line when you know you’re trying to cheat, it’s another to be strutting along innocently, trying to help your horse, doing the same thing under the same rules that you have always done, and be sidelined by the gale force winds drummed up by another :frowning:

jse - you may not be assuming that all of those riders implicated were using it for evil reasons but a lot of posters are.

I used to be on the zero tolerance policy side. However, as I’ve gotten older (and maybe a little wiser;) ), I’m inclined to say set a fair limit and work with it. Horses campaigning at any level have a lot of wear and tear and they deserve some relief. We probably would be a lot better off if we didn’t put our horses through a never-ending show circuit but that is another thread entirely. Like DMK said, I think there is a happy medium btwn NOTHING allowed and perhaps the ah more…creative med stacking that goes on that is technically legal. Why shouldn’t our horses get some liniment or pain relief?

And again, yes, I get that this stuff can be used to hypersensitive the horse. But there are a lot of other ways you can remind the horse to pick up his legs that are legal & won’t test.

There will always be some that cheat. Just a fact. We hope we catch them. But it seems to me that this zero tolerance policy winds up hurting the horses and probably those that are most guilty aren’t even being caught b/c they’re constantly ahead of the game when it comes to new & creative methods to beat the system.

[QUOTE=nycjumper;3464726]

There will always be some that cheat. Just a fact. We hope we catch them. But it seems to me that this zero tolerance policy winds up hurting the horses and probably those that are most guilty aren’t even being caught b/c they’re constantly ahead of the game when it comes to new & creative methods to beat the system.[/QUOTE]

By the way, that is exactly correct. If someone really wants to game the system, there are more effective and less detectible ways of doing it.

A quick history lesson for those who may not know:

IIRC, Melanie Smith Taylor won a gold medal at the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984, almost a quarter of a century ago. She had been a very successful competitor at the very highest levels of the sport for at least a decade before that.

So you may or may not agree with her views on this matter, but she certainly is entitled to her opinion, since she has ample experience to back it up.

She has an Olympic Show Jumping gold medal on her resume. I don’t. Do you?

[QUOTE=MHM;3464816]
A quick history lesson for those who may not know:

Melanie Smith Taylor won a gold medal at the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984, almost a quarter of a century ago. She had been a very successful competitor at the very highest levels of the sport for at least a decade before that.

So you may or may not agree with her views on this matter, but she certainly is entitled to her opinion, since she has ample experience to back it up.

She has an Olympic Show Jumping gold medal on her resume. I don’t. Do you?[/QUOTE]

I know who she is. But even though she is highly knowledgable, she does tend to dumb things down for her audience. For example, she often said “the horse just didn’t pick his legs up high enough” when a rail came down when she knows, and we know, that a lot more factors went into it than that. I can only assume that she also knows that capsaican is in many common linaments around the barn. But it was a fairly short segment, perhaps there wasn’t time to go into that. Just watching the NBD broadcast, though, it sounded like the only intent in using the drug was evil as a way to cause pain to the horse.

I would imagine part of her job is to “dumb things down” enough to communicate to the average TV viewer, who may know nothing about horses.

As you say, perhaps if she had more time, she might have gone into more detail on the various possibilities behind the suspensions.

My point is that she has plenty of experience to have an informed opinion on all those possibilities. If her broadcast partner (whatever his name was) had made the same comment, that would have been much more offensive to me, since he obviously doesn’t know anything about the sport. She most certainly does.

BTW, I was not directing this exclusively at the poster I quoted, but at all those who criticized Olympic gold medalist Melanie Smith Taylor for stating her opinion.

[QUOTE=MHM;3464816]
A quick history lesson for those who may not know:

IIRC, Melanie Smith Taylor won a gold medal at the Los Angeles Olympics in 1984, almost a quarter of a century ago. She had been a very successful competitor at the very highest levels of the sport for at least a decade before that.

So you may or may not agree with her views on this matter, but she certainly is entitled to her opinion, since she has ample experience to back it up.

She has an Olympic Show Jumping gold medal on her resume. I don’t. Do you?[/QUOTE]

I think it makes it that much more outrageous that she would declare, before the completion of any investigation, that the substance had to be used for the most nefarious purpose, and failed to mention that it is a substance that is commonly used for other innocuous purposes as well (which is a separate issue from whether any use is permitted under the rules; a violation is a violation). I think her comments were reprehensible and unprofessional. Why bother having a process for testing A and B samples, and a hearing and appeals process, since we have people like her who somehow know definitively what must have occurred in these cases without even investigating. But as I already pointed out, we also had an FEI vet insisting the substance is NEVER given orally, which is total BS. Oh, but wait…he is a vet, and an FEI vet at that. Since I don’t have a veterinary license, he must know better.

p.s. Clearly an Olympic Gold Medal is no certification as to the winner’s knowledge of the drug rules. Cases in point: 2004 individual and team gold medal disqualifications for drug violations.

[QUOTE=MHM;3464859]
I would imagine part of her job is to “dumb things down” enough to communicate to the average TV viewer, who may know nothing about horses.

As you say, perhaps if she had more time, she might have gone into more detail on the various possibilities behind the suspensions.

.[/QUOTE]

Then she could simply have said there is an investigation pending (btw, I do handle crisis management PR frequently as part of my work; in my opinion this incident was handled very, very poorly and it is not as though it is the first time the FEI has had to deal with such a thing – even at the Olympics).

[QUOTE=dags;3464719]
I like the stiff breeze analogy :slight_smile:

But I’m not sure how I feel about a horse that has undergone numerous drug tests all year long and, continuing to use the same theraputic treatment it always has, suddenly gets pulled from the Olympics hours before the event. I’ve always used paprika, and stopped about 10 days out from a show. Back when I was a constant user of Equi-block, I believe I used it right at the show, though I stopped the paprika, because of the capsacin (I’m sick of trying to remember how to spell that word, sry :/)

So to me the impression was that injested=bad, topical=okay. I’m certainly no FEI competitor, and I admit this would certainly make me consider the equi-block use more carefully, but if he’s been using it all year long, getting tested all the time, horse is going GREAT . . . you see? I don’t think it’s fair. I certainly don’t think it’s fair to get DQ’d before the whole thing is even settled, he may never get that Olympic chance again.

It’s one thing to walk the line when you know you’re trying to cheat, it’s another to be strutting along innocently, trying to help your horse, doing the same thing under the same rules that you have always done, and be sidelined by the gale force winds drummed up by another :([/QUOTE]

Let me know if you think the following situation is analogous(other than a bit having no therapeutic value) , it occurred at a horse trial this past weekend.

During the dressage test, judge notices that the competitor appears to be using a slow twist snaffle (good eyes on that judge). Competitor is stopped and bit is “re-checked”. Bit is in fact a slow twist which is an illegal bit in the dressage phase of a horse trial.

Competitor is eliminated. Competitor argues that the volunteer performing the bit check did not notice the illegal bit. The competitor has been using the slow twist all summer and no one noticed. Thus, she should not be eliminated. TD asks if the competitor knew the bit was illegal. Competitor says she did know. In fact her coach told her not to use the bit, but she did anyway.

In my mind, these situations are exactly the same, with the exception of the fact that the Irishman MAY have been trying to “help” his horse, which ultimately he was doing in order to improve his performance. Same as the young lady above. The fact that people have been getting by the drug tests only means that they were successfully breaking the rules, not that it was okay.

Again, I am not siding with the FEI on the no tolerance policy, but “I have been doing it for months and no one said a word” is not a valid defense. The use of ANYTHING other than food and water at an FEI event is against the rules. Topical, injected or given orally. The rider in question may have had a noble purpose, but he should have known he was breaking the rules. Our federation will tell you in no uncertain terms that topicals are just as illegal as oral or im or iv meds or supplements. They will also tell you that you probably won’t get nailed for putting vetrolin in your horses wash bucket, but they won’t tell you it is okay.

FWIW, I have ridden at the FEI level in eventing since 2001 and have Chef’d for three different Young Riders Teams and also groomed at many FEI events. None of this is a big secret. The kids at young riders know these things. It is sad that the Irish rider thought he had found a way around the rules and it caught up with him at the Olympics of all places, but the blame rests squarely on his shoulders.

It is not legal to administer adaquan and legend at an FEI event. It is done, but you can bet if you get caught doing it there will be a fine to pay. If the FEI one day found a way to test for it and told no one about it until the Olympics, my guess is they would DQ 95% of the entries. It would be sad, because we are only trying to help the horses be more comfortable, but ultimately we are doing it to enhance performance. Comfortable horse = improved performance.

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3464926]
Then she could simply have said there is an investigation pending (btw, I do handle crisis management PR frequently as part of my work; in my opinion this incident was handled very, very poorly and it is not as though it is the first time the FEI has had to deal with such a thing – even at the Olympics).[/QUOTE]

She even said that she had spent some time on the phone talking to the FEI and others about it: in other words, she had some time to investigate. It wasn’t that she was surprised by the scandal when on air.

I am a huge fan of Melanie Smith Taylor and I totally respect her and what she has accomplished. She and Calypso were my favorite pair when I was a star-struck teen. She was still wrong to say what she said.

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;3464979]
Let me know if you think the following situation is analogous(other than a bit having no therapeutic value) , it occurred at a horse trial this past weekend.

During the dressage test, judge notices that the competitor appears to be using a slow twist snaffle (good eyes on that judge). Competitor is stopped and bit is “re-checked”. Bit is in fact a slow twist which is an illegal bit in the dressage phase of a horse trial.

Competitor is eliminated. Competitor argues that the volunteer performing the bit check did not notice the illegal bit. The competitor has been using the slow twist all summer and no one noticed. Thus, she should not be eliminated. TD asks if the competitor knew the bit was illegal. Competitor says she did know. In fact her coach told her not to use the bit, but she did anyway.

In my mind, these situations are exactly the same, with the exception of the fact that the Irishman MAY have been trying to “help” his horse, which ultimately he was doing in order to improve his performance. Same as the young lady above. The fact that people have been getting by the drug tests only means that they were successfully breaking the rules, not that it was okay.

Again, I am not siding with the FEI on the no tolerance policy, but “I have been doing it for months and no one said a word” is not a valid defense. The use of ANYTHING other than food and water at an FEI event is against the rules. Topical, injected or given orally. The rider in question may have had a noble purpose, but he should have known he was breaking the rules. Our federation will tell you in no uncertain terms that topicals are just as illegal as oral or im or iv meds or supplements. They will also tell you that you probably won’t get nailed for putting vetrolin in your horses wash bucket, but they won’t tell you it is okay.

FWIW, I have ridden at the FEI level in eventing since 2001 and have Chef’d for three different Young Riders Teams and also groomed at many FEI events. None of this is a big secret. The kids at young riders know these things. It is sad that the Irish rider thought he had found a way around the rules and it caught up with him at the Olympics of all places, but the blame rests squarely on his shoulders.

It is not legal to administer adaquan and legend at an FEI event. It is done, but you can bet if you get caught doing it there will be a fine to pay. If the FEI one day found a way to test for it and told no one about it until the Olympics, my guess is they would DQ 95% of the entries. It would be sad, because we are only trying to help the horses be more comfortable, but ultimately we are doing it to enhance performance. Comfortable horse = improved performance.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think your analogy does work. The drug rules are not as clear cut as the bit rules. There are topical products that are legal. Fly spray. Show sheen. Vaseline. Clay poultice.

I don’t agree that the Irish rider thought he found a way around the rules - I think he thought he was within them. Even though he is in violation and it is necessary that he be eliminated, intent to violate the rules matters. Intent to gain a competitive advantage matters. Intent to gain a competitive advantage at the expense of your horse matters.

Why do we allow massage and magnetic blankets and ice? Would it be right for the FEI to ban massage or magnetic blankets because not all the competitors can afford them? After all, it is possible for a massage therapist to injure a horse.

I would be very upset if the FEI eliminated adequan and legend, not because they improve performance, but because they improve the health and longevity of the horse. The drug rules are meant to protect the horse from harmful substances used to gain competitive advantage. Theraputic substances that improve the horse’s health and well being should never be banned.

What is the FEI penalty for administering adequan/legend etc? Elimination or fine? I can’t access the rule book here at work.

There are various ways we are approaching this situation- the very element you pointed out, the lack of the bit having a therapeutic purpose, is exactly why I don’t see it as analogous to MY particular argument.

I’m trying, through scattered posts here and there, to speak to the comfort of the horse. Other general thoughts have popped in, such as I’m not sure it’s fair to get DQd before sample B is tested, but the only argument I will really fight for is that above all the good of the horse was the intention and thus the rule needs to be revisited. The horses need to be on the same playing field as the human athletes, that they are not is what I’m arguing is unfair. The rest of it I’ll go back and forth on, he rolled the dice and got caught . . . and if he was taking a conscious risk- aware it could test and eliminate him, but recognizing the benefit to the horse was so great as to be worth it, then you know what? I applaud him. Maybe now denying these horses the basic luxury of relief from the pain and muscle fatigue commonly experienced by any athlete in training and competition will be revisited.

[QUOTE=dags;3465103]
There are various ways we are approaching this situation- the very element you pointed out, the lack of the bit having a therapeutic purpose, is exactly why I don’t see it as analogous to MY particular argument.

I’m trying, through scattered posts here and there, to speak to the comfort of the horse. Other general thoughts have popped in, such as I’m not sure it’s fair to get DQd before sample B is tested, but the only argument I will really fight for is that above all the good of the horse was the intention and thus the rule needs to be revisited. The horses need to be on the same playing field as the human athletes, that they are not is what I’m arguing is unfair. The rest of it I’ll go back and forth on, he rolled the dice and got caught . . . and if he was taking a conscious risk- aware it could test and eliminate him, but recognizing the benefit to the horse was so great as to be worth it, then you know what? I applaud him. Maybe now denying these horses the basic luxury of relief from the pain and muscle fatigue commonly experienced by any athlete in training and competition will be revisited.[/QUOTE]

Your argument is one I also made somewhere. I agree there is a problem with the zero tolerance policy, and looking forward, the FEI should reconsider their rules. As I said, somewhere among the intended effect of these rules is the protection of the welfare of the horse, and that seems to be something lost with the current policies.

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3465177]
Your argument is one I also made somewhere. I agree there is a problem with the zero tolerance policy, and looking forward, the FEI should reconsider their rules. As I said, somewhere among the intended effect of these rules is the protection of the welfare of the horse, and that seems to be something lost with the current policies.[/QUOTE]

It really seems to be the only worthwhile thing to take from this whole mess, doesn’t it?

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3464599]
JSE, I know, I know…apologies, I was not responding to your post, but that of others. And in response to McKee, I should have pointed out that no one was alleging that many people did this (and that you had revised your post).

Regarding Bluemoon’s earlier question re the likelihood of lab or sample contamination given that we have 4 positives… please note that to date we have the results from only 15 of the showjumpers (and all the dressage horses and eventers), and that of the SJ horses tested, only 1 from each medal team. So they got 4 positives from 15 horses for the exact same substance, allegedly used by riders from 4 different countries? I suppose if everyone is using that same liniment, it’s possible.

But of course the FEI is its own PR nightmare - -as the Secretary General immediately declares:

“This is certainly a serious blow to our sport,” . . . It is serious because in all four cases the positive result was for the same substance. I’m not sure if we can call it a trend, but it adds to the seriousness of the case."

He might consider that it is a bit odd that such a high percentage tested positive for the same substance, and at the very least might have waited for the results of he B sample and the conclusion of the investigation. And I don’t think, in this circumstance, one can conclude that multiple positives means the problem is more “serious;” it may very well reflect the fact that more than one person was using a rather innocuous liniment that was generally viewed as not being a problem, and which had never resulted in a positive test in previous competitions.[/QUOTE]

Yankee Lawyer - There is definitely no conspiracy theory that will work for Lynch. Did you read Edgar’s post? Here is an excerpt:

"At the tribunal the FEI indicated that this substance was an ingredient in some products in regular use. Subsequently it was identified by Denis Lynch as an ingredient in a product called “Equi-block” used by him on his horse. Equi-block is a product used in similar circumstances to ‘Deep Heat’ used on humans and Denis Lynch explained to the tribunal that he commonly applies Equiblock to the horse’s lower back prior to exercise.

Denis Lynch holds up the tub of a Equi-Block, which contains capsaicin, during yesterday’s press conference in Hong Kong. The label claims that it will NOT TEST POSITIVE and vet Marcus Swain invited journalists to rub the lotion into their own skin."

I don’t understand all of the hooplah. A banned substance was used and he was disqualified. It is as simple as that. The fact that he was using the banned substance while competing prior to the Olympics makes it even worse. He got to the Olympic’s while using a banned substance.

He was responsible for following the rules. The rules stand as they are for now and need to be followed. Changing the rules is a whole nother can of worms. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=poltroon;3465086]
I don’t think your analogy does work. The drug rules are not as clear cut as the bit rules. There are topical products that are legal. Fly spray. Show sheen. Vaseline. Clay poultice.

I don’t agree that the Irish rider thought he found a way around the rules - I think he thought he was within them. Even though he is in violation and it is necessary that he be eliminated, intent to violate the rules matters. Intent to gain a competitive advantage matters. Intent to gain a competitive advantage at the expense of your horse matters.

Why do we allow massage and magnetic blankets and ice? Would it be right for the FEI to ban massage or magnetic blankets because not all the competitors can afford them? After all, it is possible for a massage therapist to injure a horse.

I would be very upset if the FEI eliminated adequan and legend, not because they improve performance, but because they improve the health and longevity of the horse. The drug rules are meant to protect the horse from harmful substances used to gain competitive advantage. Theraputic substances that improve the horse’s health and well being should never be banned.[/QUOTE]

The clarity of the rules is where we differ I guess. :slight_smile: You can call the USEF, read them the label on your product - fly spray, clay poultice, etc - and they will tell you if you can use it. There is no ambiguity. A topical CANNOT contain a banned ingredient any more than a slow twist can be used in dressage.

Adaquan and Legend cannot be administered during and FEI competition. That was the rule in 2001 and was still the rule as of 2006. The only incident I know of, in which someone was caught giving an injection resulted in a fine, not elimination. I do not know what the rule book states.

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;3465507]
The clarity of the rules is where we differ I guess. :slight_smile: You can call the USEF, read them the label on your product - fly spray, clay poultice, etc - and they will tell you if you can use it. [/QUOTE]

The only thing is, I’m not sure the Irish, Norwegians, Germans, and Brazillians know they can call the USEF and get such good service. :slight_smile:

I’m glad the USEF is providing this service - it’s good for the sport.

I’m also glad they did pre-event testing at Hong Kong and kind of disheartened that it did not seem to do the intended job.

I assume the B samples have yet to be tested. If they come back negative, then what?
I also don’t like the idea of being DQ’d before the B samples are tested. Would be nice if they could be tested at the same time - different labs - or at least in a very timely manner.