What is Capsaicin?

[lauriep]

@YankeeLawyer;3464169

You just found out about "what the jumpers call ‘burning’ and yet now you are aware that supposedly “many jumpers do it”? I really have no idea who you people hang out with, but in my many, many years on the A circuit in the jumpers and hunters I never knew anyone who did this (I am sure some nefarious creature probably did, but no one among the trainers and riders I knew did). I also was aware that some trainers poled their hores, or jumped them over a tack rail, but that was not something I would say “many” did, again, it certainly was not done by the people I trained with.

Sorry to disagree, but all of the above methods have been common and widely used for, well, forever. “Burning” legs, tack rails, offsets, “throwing” rails, etc., have been used by many, if not all, of the “heroes” spoken of here so often. Why do you think they had to resort to thermography? I can almost guarantee you that all of these Olympic horses experienced some form of tuning before they arrived in HK. With the riders fervently hoping it would last through the final rounds.

And most are done when the customers are nowhere around, as in off hours or even at night (does anyone remember the “scandal” of Ian being caught schooling in the woods at Ocala a few years ago)? So I am fairly sure you wouldn’t have been aware of it in your barn. Usually grooms are the only witnesses.

[lauriep]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3464474]
I guess I just don’t hang around cheaters. As for sheltered, I have owned and campaigned grand prix horses in international competition. Have you?

Do you really believe that “many” burned their horse’s legs?

I am not going to argue with you guys. I just really hate the lynch mob mentality. But that should not be surprising given that we have people like Melanie Taylor-Smith saying outrageous and ill-informd things, even before the conclusion of the investigation.[/QUOTE]

How do you know she is “ill-informed,” and not just “informed?”

[lauriep]

My take on Melanie’s statement wasn’t that it WAS being used for that, but that it COULD be, and that is why this substance was being tested for. As in, explaining to the general public why such a supposedly benign substance would be interesting to the testers.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=lauriep;3465926]
Sorry to disagree, but all of the above methods have been common and widely used for, well, forever. “Burning” legs, tack rails, offsets, “throwing” rails, etc., have been used by many, if not all, of the “heroes” spoken of here so often. Why do you think they had to resort to thermography? I can almost guarantee you that all of these Olympic horses experienced some form of tuning before they arrived in HK. With the riders fervently hoping it would last through the final rounds.

And most are done when the customers are nowhere around, as in off hours or even at night (does anyone remember the “scandal” of Ian being caught schooling in the woods at Ocala a few years ago)? So I am fairly sure you wouldn’t have been aware of it in your barn. Usually grooms are the only witnesses.[/QUOTE]

I can’t speak for all other barns. I assure you that I know what is going on with my horses, though, and I do seriously doubt these practices are widespread.

[lauriep]

Doubt away. They are.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=lauriep;3466057]
Doubt away. They are.[/QUOTE]

Well, if true, that is pathetic and reprehensible.

Have any of the other riders provided any statements, yet, or just Lynch?

[CBoylen]

Laurie is certainly correct. Chemical hypersensation has been around just about ever since someone decided it would be fun to jump a horse over a jump. The products have just gotten more high-tech to avoid obvious detection. Used to be people would just use whatever worked as a blister. Of course, it used to be that you could legally use a bamboo in plain sight, and fewer people bothered with heating legs unless the horse was just hopelessly uncareful.
I am not saying that hypersensation is what occurred here, because I don’t have valid proof of that and there are definitely other possible ways a positive test could have occurred for other reasons. But Capsaicin is a main ingredient in HEET, which was definitely the leg heating choice of the 90’s, so it is certainly plausible as a tool of hypersensation.
But to say these things are not widespread is ridiculous, everyone might not do it, but everyone definitely knows someone who does.
Particularly in these days where it’s not so easy to sneak off into the woods or the parking lot to school. Not that you don’t hear of that still happening occasionally, too. Years ago I even walked around a corner at Devon to find someone tuning over a shavings bale in our aisleway. That’s probably not all that uncommon in the grand scheme of things ;).

[petitefilly]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3464474]
I guess I just don’t hang around cheaters. As for sheltered, I have owned and campaigned grand prix horses in international competition. Have you?

Do you really believe that “many” burned their horse’s legs?

I am not going to argue with you guys. I just really hate the lynch mob mentality. But that should not be surprising given that we have people like Melanie Taylor-Smith saying outrageous and ill-informd things, even before the conclusion of the investigation.[/QUOTE]

The problem is MOST people who compete are not cheaters; but there are those to test the limits of controlled substances. There are some who do as much as they can to the edge. They get caught. They did get caught. Ignorance is not excuse.

Equi-block is probably gonna see some lawyers of their own very soon, I’m betting it was used by the people who were caught. Putting will not test on a bottle with capsaicin in it is stupid and not the truth as we plainly can see.

Heads will roll.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=CBoylen;3466120]

But to say these things are not widespread is ridiculous, everyone might not do it, but everyone definitely knows someone who does.
Particularly in these days where it’s not so easy to sneak off into the woods or the parking lot to school. Not that you don’t hear of that still happening occasionally, too. ).[/QUOTE]

And yet no one says anything? Great characters, the lot of them.

[Tiramit]

My take is that the zero tolerance policy is a clever precursor to the FEI’s new equine product launch in 2010. Who wouldn’t use the FEI’s own approved shampoo, liniment and packing products? I can even see the brand label: “FEI Clean” with a wild white stallion with long mane and tail running free through a jumping stadium. :lol:

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@CBoylen;3466120

But to say these things are not widespread is ridiculous, everyone might not do it, but everyone definitely knows someone who does.
Particularly in these days where it’s not so easy to sneak off into the woods or the parking lot to school. Not that you don’t hear of that still happening occasionally, too.

That is a shame, and shame on everyone that knows it is happening, and not doing anything they can to report/stop what they see.

Glad I am a nobody, because if I knew someone soring horses, I would definitely report it. Maybe we should be doing more testing of our regular memeber H/J shows, and not just the Tennessee Walking horse classes.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Tiramit;3466280]
My take is that the zero tolerance policy is a clever precursor to the FEI’s new equine product launch in 2010. Who wouldn’t use the FEI’s own approved shampoo, liniment and packing products? I can even see the brand label: “FEI Clean” with a wild white stallion with long mane and tail running free through a jumping stadium. :lol:[/QUOTE]

LOL, too funny. Sounds like the all-natural dishwashing soap we have called, appropriately, “Naked.”

[bluemoonfarms]

[QUOTE=CBoylen;3466120]
Laurie is certainly correct. Chemical hypersensation has been around just about ever since someone decided it would be fun to jump a horse over a jump. The products have just gotten more high-tech to avoid obvious detection. Used to be people would just use whatever worked as a blister. Of course, it used to be that you could legally use a bamboo in plain sight, and fewer people bothered with heating legs unless the horse was just hopelessly uncareful.
I am not saying that hypersensation is what occurred here, because I don’t have valid proof of that and there are definitely other possible ways a positive test could have occurred for other reasons. But Capsaicin is a main ingredient in HEET, which was definitely the leg heating choice of the 90’s, so it is certainly plausible as a tool of hypersensation.
But to say these things are not widespread is ridiculous, everyone might not do it, but everyone definitely knows someone who does.
Particularly in these days where it’s not so easy to sneak off into the woods or the parking lot to school. Not that you don’t hear of that still happening occasionally, too. Years ago I even walked around a corner at Devon to find someone tuning over a shavings bale in our aisleway. That’s probably not all that uncommon in the grand scheme of things ;).[/QUOTE]

Sad but true CBoylen. I wouldn’t think that people start cheating at the Olympic level. There is a reason that all of us have to pay the $7.00 USEF Drug Fee everytime we enter a horse in a show. The really sad part is that the “average Joe” is the one funding the drug testing. I would love to know what the total fund is.

[Spoilsport]

[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3466277]
And yet no one says anything? Great characters, the lot of them.[/QUOTE]

Yankee - You surprise me. You have said you’ve known McLain Ward (and thus presumably other members of his family) for ages and that you have competed internationally, and yet you are blissfully unaware of things that are endemic in showjumping :eek: Reading your posts, I get this ridiculous mental image of you sitting in your hotel room reading the Bible while the other competitors are out having drinks. Unlike you, I’ve never ridden at the international level, but I’ve been at top showjumping barns in 3 countries, and I’ve known since I was a naive teen-ager that these things happen. And, believe me, I am one of those goody-goody types people try to hide things from. Usually my information comes from people saying things like, “I know this is going to be a shock to you, but so-and-do. . .”, or from seeing things inadvertently.

Why does no one say anything? Well, people do - to each other, except apparently not to you. As to why no one complains, maybe some do, but for the most part I think there is an unwritten code of silence in showjumping (as there is, for example, in politics). . .snitches are just as loathed as cheaters. . .whether for right or wrong. What I try to do is be ethical myself and associate with other people who think like me.

[fish]

Just curious:

I’ve seen and heard of jumpers being blistered to encourage them to snap their feet up, but the products I saw used back then (and my sample is admittedly very small and ancient) were blisters-- e.g. reducine, not liniments. I’ve used Equi Block to massage both myself and my horses, and it seems to me that it would be easier to blister or hyper sensitize a horse’s legs with iodine or splintex than Equi Block, which has never seemed to have that effect to me— are all of these banned by FEI rules-- iodine? DMSO? Splintex? Is there any real evidence that Capascin (sp?) does in fact “improve performance” in any way aside from making the horses more comfortable (just as it does human athletes)? After all, if we were to deprive the horses of everything that improves comfort level (not to mention preventing bacterial infections like thrush) on the grounds that that comfort improves performance, the argument could, pushed to its extreme, eliminate things like feed and water, not to mention vitamin and mineral supplements, etc.

Adequan and Legend are not allowed? HA? Sorry, I think that’s ridiculous.

I have used paprika to improve a horse’s coat and remember being told I had to stop 2 weeks before showing. I was surprised, and had NO idea that this was because of the pepper connection. Guess that shows how out of the loop/naive I am. It never ceases to amaze how a few bad apples capable of twisting the most benign substances to illicit ends can afflict others through the endless rules created to attempt restricting them.

Reminds me of the ban on any kind of knives in our schools-- not even plastic ones to cut fresh fruit. Makes me wonder how long they’ll continue to allow sharpened pencils.
Are pointy scissors still allowed in our schools or have art and other classes been forced to drop all activities requiring the use of cutting tools? It’s quite the world we live in

This capascin thing really bugs me: I have a couple horses it would be dangerous to bandage or boot without Rap Last!

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@Spoilsport;3466609

As to why no one complains, maybe some do, but for the most part I think there is an unwritten code of silence in showjumping (as there is, for example, in politics). . .snitches are just as loathed as cheaters. . .whether for right or wrong.

This is not some lowlife underworld, or prison we are talking about here. This is what is happening to animals we all claim to love - obviously not. If you know it is happening, and do nothing, you are just as guilty, if not more then the person doing it.

[YankeeLawyer]

[QUOTE=Spoilsport;3466609]
Yankee - You surprise me. You have said you’ve known McLain Ward (and thus presumably other members of his family) for ages and that you have competed internationally, and yet you are blissfully unaware of things that are endemic in showjumping :eek: Reading your posts, I get this ridiculous mental image of you sitting in your hotel room reading the Bible while the other competitors are out having drinks. Unlike you, I’ve never ridden at the international level, but I’ve been at top showjumping barns in 3 countries, and I’ve known since I was a naive teen-ager that these things happen. And, believe me, I am one of those goody-goody types people try to hide things from. Usually my information comes from people saying things like, “I know this is going to be a shock to you, but so-and-do. . .”, or from seeing things inadvertently.

Why does no one say anything? Well, people do - to each other, except apparently not to you. As to why no one complains, maybe some do, but for the most part I think there is an unwritten code of silence in showjumping (as there is, for example, in politics). . .snitches are just as loathed as cheaters. . .whether for right or wrong. What I try to do is be ethical myself and associate with other people who think like me.[/QUOTE]

I think our disagreement is over the term “widespread.” There is a difference between having a few bad apples, and widespread, which denotes commonly done, practiced by many, prevalent. Saying that “everyone knows someone” who does it also in itself does not mean many people do it – does everyone know of the same notorious 3, or whatever? I NEVER said that no one cheats; I said I didn’t personally know of anyone using capsaicin as a blistering agent to enhance jumping, but even then said that there were probably some nefarious types out there who did. As for the other methods, I am aware that some people cheat; I disagree that many or most people do. I also associate with people who think like me, which may be part of the reason that I do not have the impression that these practices are “widespread.”

And I do have a major problem with the “code of silence” attitude, particularly as it pertains to horses, who rely on PEOPLE to look out for their interests. But, I also attended schools that had honor codes (oh, yeah, my parents actually made me go to school while other juniors were tutored on the circuit), and so I was raised to believe that knowing about cheating and doing nothing about it is as bad as cheating itself. Frankly, I don’t see why I am getting attacked on these boards. Save your energy for the people who are out there apparently engaging in widespread cheating and horse abuse, and do something about THAT.

p.s. It happens that I don’t own a Bible, but bravo for probably offending a good number of people who, like me, think there is nothing wrong with actually being religious. Based on the allegations here, I think it would serve some people well to read a book of any kind once in a while, and they might start with the FEI rule book.

[twofatponies]

As a mere pleasure rider and spectator - not involved in trying to make any money winning competitions - I find this whole banned substances thing so complicated and to some extent ridiculous. I need Ben-Gay, Advil and Coffee just to get through a normal day! Sometimes I need cold medicine or sleeping aids. The harder I try to figure out what the line is between therapeutic treatment of a competition horse and “cheating”, the more my brain ties itself in a knot. It seems like every “therapeutic” or “training” technique can be overdone to create a “cheat”, so everything gets banned to punish the cheaters, making the whole system revolve around the bad guys. Sort of like the terrorists “winning” by making us all over-afraid of everything. Sigh What a strange world. Perhaps the only solution is to ban competitions. Then there would be no incentive to cheat.

[dags]

what a sad, sad thing.

lauriep and cboylen, you guys are a fair representation of the circuit. we all know what can go on there, we all know which players DO rely on this crap, and which ones DON’T. To hear you speak of it so nonchalantly, so matter-of-fact and accepting of it, is very disappointing.

Here I am, arguing for the innocent use of a product because I am personally aware of how beneficial it is. Blaming sensationalist accusations and the ever present bad apples for the inane rules that withhold basic pain relief from these horses, while you casually wander in and verify the already spoonfed opinion that it is just ‘the way things are done’.

I’m sorry. I am sure you will return to tell me you do not condone it, that this is not what you are insinuating . . . I kind of hope you do. But the impression just left here, from two users many look up to because they are aware of your accomplishments, aware that you are actually in the trenches while they are lucky to get ringside, is that it is as commonplace as the sensationalists claim. So be it, but you people on the inside are the ones that need to step up and put an end to it . . . or at the very least, make it clear that there are also people who have no part in this.

[Ghazzu]

@dags;3466842

lauriep and cboylen, you guys are a fair representation of the circuit. we all know what can go on there, we all know which players DO rely on this crap, and which ones DON’T.

I don’t get the impression that “we all know” from reading this thread–on the contrary, it appears that a number of people are surprised about such things.
And, if you are right, and “we all know”, then why single out 2 posters and excoriate them for inaction?