Unfortunately things like this happen all the time. whether it be drugging a horse, poling, or having tacks on your noseband. you can not truly stop this all togther, it has always happened and most probably always will happen to some degree. This is why many people are so acceptant of what happened. we are disappointed in the athletes of course, but it is really nothing out of the ordinary.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3466853]
I don’t get the impression that “we all know” from reading this thread–on the contrary, it appears that a number of people are surprised about such things.
And, if you are right, and “we all know”, then why single out 2 posters and excoriate them for inaction?[/QUOTE]
Because most of us involved in the circuit do know it goes on. There’s a gap on this board between those that spend their lives at the showgrounds and those that do not. Those that do not rely on information they receive, often posted here. My point was that while these two confirm for the uninvolved that yes, there is shadiness- a fair bit of it, there are also others that are competing at the top of this sport cleanly.
I isolated these two posters because I am aware they speak rather knowledgebly about the circuit, as are many others.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3466853]
I don’t get the impression that “we all know” from reading this thread–on the contrary, it appears that a number of people are surprised about such things.
And, if you are right, and “we all know”, then why single out 2 posters and excoriate them for inaction?[/QUOTE]
I agree, and I certainly did not mean to single out anybody (plus, for all I know, the posts were made based on rumors they have heard, and generally, I don’t believe people should act without having a sufficient basis for an allegation, mere rumor not being one). But, I do stand by my statements that inaction when confronted with an instance of cheating is as bad as cheating, and to the extent this problem is systemic, it is going to take a lot more than one or two so-called “narcs” to fix.
[QUOTE=twofatponies;3466835]
As a mere pleasure rider and spectator - not involved in trying to make any money winning competitions - I find this whole banned substances thing so complicated and to some extent ridiculous. I need Ben-Gay, Advil and Coffee just to get through a normal day! Sometimes I need cold medicine or sleeping aids. The harder I try to figure out what the line is between therapeutic treatment of a competition horse and “cheating”, the more my brain ties itself in a knot. It seems like every “therapeutic” or “training” technique can be overdone to create a “cheat”, so everything gets banned to punish the cheaters, making the whole system revolve around the bad guys. Sort of like the terrorists “winning” by making us all over-afraid of everything. Sigh What a strange world. Perhaps the only solution is to ban competitions. Then there would be no incentive to cheat.[/QUOTE]
This is why the FEI attempts to have clear prohibitions on certain substances. A substance is either banned or it is not; they don’t want to get into the grey areas of the whys or the how muches.
So what?
How does that make them any more responsible than any of " most of us involved in the circuit"?
You apparently “know”.
Have you turned anyone in?
Or is your activity restricted to wagging your finger at others who “know”?
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3467109]
So what?
How does that make them any more responsible than any of " most of us involved in the circuit"?
You apparently “know”.
Have you turned anyone in?
Or is your activity restricted to wagging your finger at others who “know”?[/QUOTE]
Wow. Okay.
I’m not sure what you think I’m trying to do to these people, who I’m sure will come on here and tell me if I’ve greatly insulted them. Puzzling.
My point is that maybe they could ALSO present that clean competition does exist at the upper levels, so that those who are not so familiar with the circuit don’t walk away with the idea that it’s all dirty. Everywhere. Everyone. There’s no hope. Showjumpers are evvvilllll horse abusers noo better than the TWH crowd.
I’m not at a horse show, I’m on a computer. I’m talking about what is going on HERE, in this little computer world. Not about running to stewards. I’m talking about how to constructively build an arguement that would at least give consideration to basic pain relief for these horses. Did you read anything else I wrote, or just jump on one post?
I’m confused – how can applying capsaicin make a horse hypersensitive? If the horse feels anything all he will feel is burning – will that really make him jump better?
Sorry – haven’t read whole thread – how do most of you think the capsaicin got in the horse’s systems? Linament use or cheating? Do you think the tests are too sensitive?
Well, I wasn’t going to say it, but hey, why not?
I have been back and forth on the zero tolerance policy a couple times. There’s the give the poor hard working horsey an aspirin argument - and then there is the give 'em any wiggle room what-so-ever and they will be stacking 150 tiny bits of everything and the kitchen sink argument. The USEF might be happy to turn a blind eye - but part of me is darn glad the FEI won’t. Yet.
Here’s a thought. You want the BEST for these horses? You really really really want what is the absolute best for them? Then reduce SUBSTANTIALLY the amount of time they can spend in competitions. Period.
They need all this crap because we pound the crap out of them. Limit every horse on the planet to competitions once a month - there’s a thought. Hey, give 'em the winter off!
Yep, some people would still pound the crap out of their horses. But you wouldn’t have to pound the crap out of yours to beat them.
JMHO.
SCFarm
One of the reasons that so many substances are not allowed at all is that they can cover up other more seriously abused substances.
They need all this crap because we pound the crap out of them. Limit every horse on the planet to competitions once a month - there’s a thought. Hey, give 'em the winter off!
Also, find horses that don’t need hours of lungeing to make them quiet enough for amateurs.
A QUESTION:
Perhaps I missed it, but does anyone know if any of the horses who participated in the voluntary drug testing at the beginning of the games tested positive for anything? And if so, how was it handled?
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3467175]
I’m confused – how can applying capsaicin make a horse hypersensitive? If the horse feels anything all he will feel is burning – will that really make him jump better?
Sorry – haven’t read whole thread – how do most of you think the capsaicin got in the horse’s systems? Linament use or cheating? Do you think the tests are too sensitive?[/QUOTE]
If you clip their legs to the skin with a 10 blade and then rub the skin with a stiff brush almost raw and then apply something like capsaicin followed by really cold water you can bet their gonna be seriously irritated when someone goes to put boots on and they’re gonna pick up their feet for sure. Whether it really works with making them jump better? That’s something for sure to doubt.
<< does anyone know if any of the horses who participated in the voluntary drug testing at the beginning of the games tested positive for anything? And if so, how was it handled?>>
All the pre-event drug testing was kept anonymous.
Dennie Lynch’s horse tested negative in this drug screen.
Which was why he was so surprised to be informed that his horse when tested again, tested positive.
The official explanation is that the later drug test was ‘more thorough’ and tested for more substances.
Considering that the FEI seems hysterical about the capsaicin, one might have thought they would have tested for its presence in the earlier, voluntary pre-event drug test offered.
Team vet insists that rider was ‘totally unaware’ of the dangers
Ingredients:
Active Ingredient: Capsaicin (0.025%)
Other Ingredients: Deionized Water, Chamomile Extract, Carbomer 940, Polysorbate 20, Triethanolamine, Propyl Gallate, Methylparaben, Imidazolidinyl Urea, Propylparaben, Fragrance.
IRISH team vet Marcus Swail last night insisted show jumper Denis Lynch was “totally unaware” of the danger of using the lotion that led to his disqualification from the Olympic show jumping final.
The 32-year-old Tipperary-born rider was disqualified from competing in the individual show jumping final on Thursday when it was revealed that his horse, Lantinus, had tested positive for a banned substance called capsaicin.
“When I told Denis about the test result we were close to the horse’s stable and he turned around and walked straight over to Lantinus’ stable door,” Swail said.
"There was a wooden tack-box hanging over the front of the door with grooming things in it and the horse had his head hanging out over the top of it.
“Denis put his hand into the box and pulled out a tub of Equi-Block, saying that he thought it contained capsaicin – now if you knew it was illegal to use it, you would hardly leave it sitting in a box at the front of the stable where anyone could see it would you? Denis was horrified.”
The Irish contingent in Hong Kong are aware of the tidal wave of criticism being directed toward them following the latest humiliating disqualification from the Games.
Yesterday, they were holed up in their hotel while Typhoon Nuri blew through, leading to delayed departures for horses, competitors and officials.
“I’ve heard that people have been saying how can we all have been so stupid,” Mr Swail said.
“But I would say to that – if you were Denis Lynch and you used that preparation all the time and the horse was tested seven or eight times over the nine months since you had him and each time the test was negative and you never heard of a positive result for this product – would it not be reasonable to believe it was fine to use it?”
The banned substance capsaicin creates a burning sensation and, if applied to a horse’s legs, “could hyper-sensitise them and make them jump better in competition”, a press conference heard earlier this week.
However, Mr Swail insisted Equi-Block has little or no burning effect when applied to the skin.
At the hastily convened Irish team press conference last Thursday night, the Irish veterinary surgeon said, “I invite you to come up here and try it” as he laid the tub of Equi-Block on the table.
Written on the label was “contains capsaicin”, with the additional claim that horses will not test positive when the substance is applied. “If you were hoping to create a burning sensation with it, then you would be looking for your money back,” he pointed out.
“Denis uses it to loosen muscles on his horse’s lower back as part of his normal routine,” Mr Swail explained.
Abusive
The FEI has only recently broadened its screening programme to search for capsaicin in the belief that it is being used in an abusive manner to make horses jump more carefully.
“The rules are changing all the time and people are getting caught up by mistake. Denis doesn’t deserve this,” Mr Swail insisted.
- Lucy O’Brien in Hong Kong
Quelle : www.independant.ie
If they truly changed the screeing from the voluntary test to the subsequent Olympic testings it seems very strange to me. What is a voluntary test suposed to do for them if they change it later on??? I can see the false security knowing the horse has been tested negative regularly even in Hong Kong and not having to worry about changing what apears to be a decent and humane routine for the horse, one BTW completely legaly used for Human athletes in the games. I understand the abuse issues and I understand that no matter what they are wrong for using it in any matter because that is what is in the rules, however it apears that with the more sensitive screening it may be time to put levels allowed for certain substances so that when properly used, like for humans it is not an issue. I just assume when applied on raw skin in an abusive manner levels of absorbtion go up too. That method of use seems to me will leave a physically noticable mark on a leg that would be seen upon inspection.
[QUOTE=jse;3467381]
If you clip their legs to the skin with a 10 blade and then rub the skin with a stiff brush almost raw and then apply something like capsaicin followed by really cold water you can bet their gonna be seriously irritated when someone goes to put boots on and they’re gonna pick up their feet for sure. Whether it really works with making them jump better? That’s something for sure to doubt.[/QUOTE]
It’s something to doubt all right. They would also move oddly. The only thing I’ve personally seen that’s similiar is a horse that was wearing new splint boots that didn’t fit properly. The horse did pick up her knees but didn’t jump nearly as well as usual.
These last 2 Olympics I can’t help but think that 2 teams lost medals because of the use of everyday products, not abusive practices.
Is DMSO illegal too?
Yes.
I’m not insulted. I completely get where you are coming from, which is why I made sure to disclaim in my post that there were other completely innocuous uses for capsaicin, and that it was very possible that the positive tests were accidental. And even if they weren’t, it’s not exactly a new problem, nor is it a particularly harmful problem to a horse whose legs are subjected to checks at every competition. No one out there wants to cause sores or burns; that would keep them OUT of competition. “Horse abuse” is major hyperbole in this instance.
Yes, rules are rules and I’m all for a level playing field, but barring a perfect world of perfect rule abiding citizens, I can live with rule-breakers who aren’t putting their horse in physical danger or causing it serious pain. We’re talking about tingle-y legs here, there are worse problems to be had. And no, since I brought it up, I don’t care about the bamboo either; I’ve never seen a horse injured by a bamboo. Pick your battles. When you take away the easiest option people resort to more difficult and more dangerous ones, whether we’re talking drugs or tuning methods. I think our rules would be better off taking that into consideration, but instead they just try to keep up with what to outlaw, and the process continues.
I actually do believe that the vast majority of any positive tests are accidental, but unfortunately the FEI and the USEF tend not to take any evidence thereof into consideration (and legally, I really doubt they could if they wanted to), so at this point people faced with a positive test tend to just throw up their hands and plead guilty. Fighting a charge usually gets you nowhere, and often leads to worse punishment. There are a lot of people that are trying to follow the rules, but make mistakes, either due to ignorance, accident, or just lack of vigilence. I think they outnumber the people who are trying to get away with something, but you can’t tell the difference on a case-by-case basis unless you’re the person involved.
I also personally think the FEI rules are not beneficial to horse welfare. Who wants to be unable to treat their horse for illness or minor injury because of an important competition? Especially when a team is involved and the choice is NOT personal alone, that’s a terrible decision for someone to have to make. And meanwhile the horse suffers. Horses can be made more comfortable without greatly enhancing their performance, and they can and should be treated properly when they are ill or hurt. And again, when people have easy options they don’t look for ways around the rules. Make it easier on people, and easier on the horses. Or at least establish thresholds that might make it easier to prove the difference between who set out to cheat, who who put their horse in danger, and who either succumbed to human error or stumbled into a grey area trying to take good care of their horse.
I spoke up originally because I don’t think the rose-colored glasses approach does anyone any favors here. Yes, there is clean competition at the upper levels. Yes, there are problems too. But the black-and-white, there are “good” people and then there are “bad” people approach, that leads to a lot of errors, and it’s a more prevalent attitude on this board than almost anywhere. Basically, there are people trying to get by. Period. There are people doing their best to play fair and making stupid mistakes; there are people pushing the limits in innocuous ways; there are people seriously putting horses in danger. Limiting the view by refusing to see the grey areas, and painting everyone who doesn’t fit in that rose-colored world as an exception, one of the “bad” people, that hampers finding a solution to our more serious issues. There might be few real sinners, but there are few real saints too. If you’re going to solve problems you have to find real solutions for real people.
Wow!
“Darn it if you don’t let us cheat the easy way, we will find a way to cheat, and you will like it even less, so you better just let us cheat anyway.”
Scary attitude. :no: 
I think you had better re-read Darlyn, your summary doesn’t pertain to my post.
CBoylen, I get where you are coming from. The real world is not always black and white, if ever. It is almost always gray. It seems most of the rules written pertain to a black and white world.
