[QUOTE=diamondblue;3468504]
If you don’t like it don’t show. You can put an end to it very quickly. I do for one think horses are entitled to have a normal dose of something comparative to tylenol or advil when they jump 6 rounds at the olympics in the course of a week. And yes, they are standing around in stalls, not moving around all that much. Wake up and smell the coffee? what are you talking about? Things are not as they were 20 years ago. People do sometimes go overboard with “the care” of their horses, but there are just as many people showing their horses 15 times a year as there are 52. You can’t condemn the whole crowd. I think you missed the point in its entirety.[/QUOTE]
I saw where you were coming from…it’s true. Humans take Advil at the end of the day for all their aching joints. I know I do! Well…right now I’m grounded to Tylenol cause I’m pregnant but…
I would feel terrible not being able to give my horse some bute after a hard days work. I’m happy we have it! Hell people even give their dogs bute, I know I will give my Great Dane bute when he starts to show signs that his hips are bothering him when he gets older. I want him to be comfortable. I want my horses to be comfortable. I don’t see anything wrong with that…
Thanks jse. I just don’t think it is limited to “old” horses or that horses need it because they are unqualified for the job. I think horses that are working this hard deserve a little mild anti-inflammatory. It seems it could be moderated through the vets or something.
[QUOTE=diamondblue;3468526]
Thanks jse. I just don’t think it is limited to “old” horses or that horses need it because they are unqualified for the job. I think horses that are working this hard deserve a little mild anti-inflammatory. It seems it could be moderated through the vets or something.[/QUOTE]
Lol I forgot to mention I’m only 27…and have been taking pain meds for my knees since I was like 15!!! Thanks to horseback riding all my life! I have no knees left, I see a replacement before I’m 50!
It would really depend on the job at hand, when the horse received said medication in relation to the ppe, and if it was a normal dose. Bute or Banamine 2 hours before ppe not okay. The USEF seems to have a good grasp of how long meds work and what amounts stay in the system and for how long. I would use those guidelines for this type of decision.
[QUOTE=jse;3468561]
LOL! I COULD consider…however I think I’d be unhappy for the rest of my life! I think I’d rather have plastic knees! :D[/QUOTE]
I think many of the horses feel the same way. I have seen horses get distraught when the trailer leaves for the show without them! Take your advil or tylenol and have fun! ;)
Humans may very well be able to abuse their bodies from a young age, pumping advil to get them thru the day, but horses don’t have the option of wheelchairs and joint replacements.
Any horse that is needing drugs to maintain their soundness from a young age needs a new career. If they are injured, they need a rest. If developing arthritis, they need something less damaging.
I am not one that thinks of horses as something to use as long as you can keep them sound, put them down and get another. My goal is to have every horse comfortable thru out a normal lifespan of 25 to 30 years.
Horses can and do compete thru a long career, so it can be done, and many horses have gotten thru the olympics without a positive test result.
I do feel it is very unfair to have used a different testing procedure for arrival compared to competiton day. IF this is found to be the case, that is absolutely wrong.
As far as Banamine goes, I have seen it used on a horse that had severe ringbone, basically no cartlidge left in the joint, very head bobbing lame even when loose in the field for years. After a single shot of Banamine, the horse was 100% sound while ridden until it wore off.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3468593]
Any horse that is needing drugs to maintain their soundness from a young age needs a new career. If they are injured, they need a rest. If developing arthritis, they need something less damaging.
I am not one that thinks of horses as something to use as long as you can keep them sound, put them down and get another. My goal is to have every horse comfortable thru out a normal lifespan of 25 to 30 years.
Horses can and do compete thru a long career, so it can be done, and many horses have gotten thru the olympics without a positive test result. [/QUOTE]
You should probably stop riding then. Horses can develop arthritis living in a field. Giving a normal dose of bute or banamine does NOT constitute maintaining soundness. God forbid, we make sure they are rewarded for a job well done by feeling good!
Our goals are the same. Comfortable happy horses. Again, you have missed the point. Capsaicin testing positive at the olympics was not what you said that sent me on this tyraid. It was that horses that are 9 years old that are given bute or banamine need a new job.
Capsaicin is quite strong. It is in a lot of the icy hot products you can buy on the shelf at your local drug store. I don’t know how someone competing at the Olympic level would have thought it a good idea to use a product like this. My point was the flip side of this, it seems unfair to the horses that they can’t have something like advil or tylenol to help keep from getting stiff after pouring their heart out for us! I think the reason they can’t use anything is because of those that abuse the privilege. It then becomes all or nothing for everyone- JMHO. It seems the only way to monitor.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3468608]
As far as Banamine goes, I have seen it used on a horse that had severe ringbone, basically no cartlidge left in the joint, very head bobbing lame even when loose in the field for years. After a single shot of Banamine, the horse was 100% sound while ridden until it wore off.[/QUOTE]
And how did the horse look 12 hours later? There are reasons organizations such as the USEF use these guidelines. No one on here suggested it to be okay to give 10cc of banamine 2 hours prior to riding and jumping.
I think it’s your turn to have missed the point. When someone else decides how long and how much you work - without asking you - and then decides what, if any pain relief you get - again, without asking you if it is effective or has any side effects for you - then you can compare your aches and pains to your horse’s.
You get to decide if you need a day off, a less stressful job, a new knee, etc. When you decide these things for another (any other) living creature, the bar is much higher. Why do you think it is so wrong to err on the side of caution?
BTW - there are other ways to limit your pain than Advil. For the slightly less (duck’s head) lazy, working out with weights, cardio and a good flexibility routine often alleviates the need for NSAIDs. Just because you want to take a shortcut to abusing your body doesn’t mean it’s in your horse’s best interest to follow suit.
Look - I know I am being a bit extreme here. But honestly this “just give 'em a little of this and that” routine is the top of a very slippery slope. Some people may handle that slope very well - but many do not. And a little of this-n-that becomes freekin’ snake venom and designer steroids. And the higher the stakes the faster that seems to happen these days.
So it just doesn’t break my heart when someone doesn’t get a medal that maybe might have. Yes, it sucks. But the horses likely don’t care. And I believe we owe them our first and top concerns.
[QUOTE=LLDM;3468644]
I think it’s your turn to have missed the point. When someone else decides how long and how much you work - without asking you - and then decides what, if any pain relief you get - again, without asking you if it is effective or has any side effects for you - then you can compare your aches and pains to your horse’s.
You get to decide if you need a day off, a less stressful job, a new knee, etc. When you decide these things for another (any other) living creature, the bar is much higher. Why do you think it is so wrong to err on the side of caution?[/QUOTE]
Jse knows that was a joke. Everyone on this board is so rigid. It was sarcasm. I think giving a very mild anti-inflammatory is using caution.
Sometimes those fitness routines are the very cause of the aches and pains. I run in several marathons a year and am very familiar with being fit and not as you assume, lazy. I am not abusing my body. I didn’t say I take advil or tylenol around the clock every day, but when I have exerted myself extra, yes I do take something. I feel the same for the horses. Getting 2 grams of bute or 10cc of banamine after jumping 1.60m course(s) is not abusing the body.
Did you read my post? I speculated the reason the rule is not forgiving for anything is because of those that abused the privilege of using what was acceptable. Not allowing the horses to be comfortable with something routine and mild has not stopped the behavior you speak of. It has enhanced their creativity which for me, seems much more dangerous.
[QUOTE=LLDM;3468644]So it just doesn’t break my heart when someone doesn’t get a medal that maybe might have. Yes, it sucks. But the horses likely don’t care. And I believe we owe them our first and top concerns.
SCFarm[/QUOTE]
Again, this entire tyraid did not go on because I thought the horses testing positive for capsaicin was okay. (Reading comprehension) I already stated in a previous post that I couldn’t believe someone competing at the olympic level would think using a product like that would be okay. I went on to say I can’t believe they would fly with it in their suitcase much less take it to the barn and use it. I am not defending those that didn’t get to compete. I disagree strongly with the poster that said any 9 year old that needed bute or banamine was unfit for their job. I think that is a very ignorant stance to take with horses. They can’t tell you how they feel. Why in the world would you not give them the equivalent of tylenol or advil after jumping their hearts our for you? That seems the more cautious approach. I would hate to think my horse gave her 120% effort to then go and get sore because I didn’t see the need to give her some bute or banamine. We are not talking about a morphine drip here. We are also not talking about an everyday occurrence.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3468785]
There’s a difference between the scenario of giving medication after the horse has competed and giving medication during the competition period.[/QUOTE]
Oh I am sorry, did they not compete over the course of a week? And isn’t that generally the case? Two or three classes in a week. In this instance 6 rounds in a week? The rules don’t allow for anything all week long.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;3468092]
I have no problem with giving a horse a bit of bute to keep an older guy comfortable. If a 9 year old needs it, I would seriously change what their job is. Banamine is another story, as it will definitely cover up a chronically lame horse. [/QUOTE]
ghazzu this is what started this part of the conversation. I think it is a shame that we ask these horses to give it there all and then don’t give them the basics we would give ourselves when we exert more on a given day. I feel sure the reason is it becomes too hard to monitor. It is easier to have a no tolerance policy. The many suffer because of the few bad seeds that took advantage of the system. I think it is unrealistic to think a horse might not benefit from some bute or banamine (within the legal dosage and timeframe) because it is a 9 year old horse and not a 19 year old.
I am aware of that…
Point is, giving medication to provide relief after an athletic endeavor is not the same thing as giving medication before an endeavor, which would be the case were it permitted during competition.
Something which you appear to have glossed over in your plaint about giving medication after an effort.
:D:eek:
