Are the results from the B Samples known yet?
While these horses are showing can they use Acupuncture, Chiropractic’s, Massage Therapy
and or warm compresses? These therapies can reduce pain and swelling drug free.
I believe all of the above are permitted under FEI rules, although there is at least one European country which restricts acupuncture in racehorses…
:eek: Yeah this was just a joke, for sure. However, as for the lazy remark, some of us were just born with bad knees…and nothing but Advil works after a (and the key is AFTER, I think that’s Diamondblue’s point) long hard day on my feet or in the saddle.
Correct me if I’m wrong but those poor fox hunters who run their butts off for 3-4 hours straight don’t deserve a good dose of Bute when they come off the trailer? Horses carry a lot of their own weight, let alone at the least 100 lbs when someone is riding them…I can’t help but to think that giving them something for their sore muscles after a long hard work out is doing nothing but allowing them to rest easy. Am I wrong? I really don’t think that Diamondblue is trying to say that we should use these pain relievers DURING work…but afterwards, it surely is beneficial to keep a horse comfortable.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3468785]
There’s a difference between the scenario of giving medication after the horse has competed and giving medication during the competition period.[/QUOTE]
I agree. A sound horse jumps. Then gets bute afterwards.
An unsound horse gets bute, and like race horses do, breaks down. Is this horse going to get a retirement home or get put down?
I understand that some people think that drugging a horse to make it sound for jumping is ok. As long as they are upfront about that, it is what they choose to do with their horses.
But when they get disqualified, they should not complain.
[QUOTE=Dune;3468591]
How nice to have a spokesman for the FEI right here on our own humble BB. Who knew?;)[/QUOTE]
Dune, get a grip.
Thanks Ghazzu. I have personally received all of these therapies on myself and on some of my horses. Now if you throw in a little STEM and Ultrasound if you had a sore back you are walking around like a million bucks (from personal experience). I am going to believe Lynch, that he used the Equi-Blok on the horse’s back. I really think the other therapies would have made the horse feel better than rubbing Equi-Blok on his back. I am no FEI Vet but I think this is just common sense?
[QUOTE=bluemoonfarms;3468980]
Thanks Ghazzu. I have personally received all of these therapies on myself and on some of my horses. Now if you throw in a little STEM and Ultrasound if you had a sore back you are walking around like a million bucks (from personal experience). I am going to believe Lynch, that he used the Equi-Blok on the horse’s back. I really think the other therapies would have made the horse feel better than rubbing Equi-Blok on his back. I am no FEI Vet but I think this is just common sense?[/QUOTE]
Ohhh man you had to mention Ultrasound! Wish I had a machine here in my house…it’s the best feeling ever!
25 years ago we had bute and ace and not a lot in the way of sophisticated testing for anyone even moderately ahead of the curve, but not to worry because but and ace got a pretty good workout. Sure horses had a lot more time off, but then again we didn’t have 1/10th the career/life prolonging therapies like adequan or legend or any of the alternative therapies either. 25 years ago I would have loved to know how my quarter horse mare felt when she wasn’t hocky, because she and damn near every other horse her age was pretty damn hock sore compared to they counterparts today. 29 years ago my first horse was pretty much declared useless after the age of 7 thanks to “navicular disease”. It would be nice to know what his specific problem was, but mostly he was known as “finished” back then.
There were less drugs to treat problems and prolong careers. This should not be confused with the idea that people didn’t know how to use bute to get a hocky or footsore horse to the ring 25 years ago. There just wasn’t a test to enforce it.
[QUOTE=bluemoonfarms;3468898]
While these horses are showing can they use Acupuncture, Chiropractic’s, Massage Therapy
and or warm compresses? These therapies can reduce pain and swelling drug free.[/QUOTE]
I think most of these therapies are also used. Not all of them are that practical, though, unless you travel with an entourage of specialists for your horses.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;3468556]
Just curious.
If you were buying a horse, how many of you wouldn’t care if the horse had NSAIDs on board for the PPE?[/QUOTE]
I would care - a lot! I have no problem with giving bute in temporary situations but if I went to see a horse and it was already on some form of NSAIDs I would immediately be suspicious of the trainer/owner trying to mask something. Is the horse sour? Is he overworked? Is there some underlying medical condition?
I don’t object to the use of bute in general, I just don’t trust how other people use it.
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3468996]
I think most of these therapies are also used. Not all of them are that practical, though, unless you travel with an entourage of specialists for your horses.[/QUOTE]
I am pretty sure most people at larger show venues or cities can easily find massage therapists and chiropractors lurking at the major shows. I know a few who travel to the shows specifically looking for work and one person actually competes at the same shows and does a few horses to help cover her show costs. Acupuncturists are difficult to find, I only know of one in a 300 mile radius of where I live, but using warm compresses and magnets - any horse-person worth his or her salt can do. Heck - a good OLD SCHOOL grooming using a cactus cloth, a switch of straw, or any old rag to rub shine into a coat - instead of using show sheen and slicker brush - will do wonders to increase blood flow and relieve tension. Let’s be honest, a lot of people just want to do everything in the shortest amount of time using the path of least resistance.
[QUOTE=DMK;3468993]
25 years ago we had bute and ace and not a lot in the way of sophisticated testing for anyone even moderately ahead of the curve, but not to worry because but and ace got a pretty good workout. Sure horses had a lot more time off, but then again we didn’t have 1/10th the career/life prolonging therapies like adequan or legend or any of the alternative therapies either. 25 years ago I would have loved to know how my quarter horse mare felt when she wasn’t hocky, because she and damn near every other horse her age was pretty damn hock sore compared to they counterparts today. 29 years ago my first horse was pretty much declared useless after the age of 7 thanks to “navicular disease”. It would be nice to know what his specific problem was, but mostly he was known as “finished” back then. [/QUOTE]
Regarding the idea that 25 years ago things were so much better for horses, I generally disagree. 25 years ago, people generally used the same saddle (or 2 or 3 identical saddles) on all their horses and just piled on pads to make them fit various body types. Now, each horse has to have a custom fitted saddle, adjusted frequently to account for any changes in muscle development, etc. 25 years ago, horses in the A show barn I was in generally ate the same diet, adjusted in amounts depending on their workload, but nothing fancy (and as I recall, pretty heavy on the sweet feed). Now, we have equine nutritionists, and feeds to address every equine need under the sun, and each horse has a custom-tailored feed program. 25 years ago it was not uncommon to give bute and banamine to horses that were competing. My trainer’s horses typically competed sound into their 20s (she was in fact fairly renowned for that), and in the 15 years I was at her barn, we had very, very few incidents of unsoundness requiring layup, colics, or other problems (not to say that horses never got injured; of course they did, but we had relatively very few problems). We had electromagnetic therapy machines, and various forms of massage boots that were pretty cool (the kind you fill with water), but now there are many more options available to help make the equine athlete comfortable.
[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;3469019]
I am pretty sure most people at larger show venues or cities can easily find massage therapists and chiropractors lurking at the major shows. I know a few who travel to the shows specifically looking for work and one person actually competes at the same shows and does a few horses to help cover her show costs. Acupuncturists are difficult to find, I only know of one in a 300 mile radius of where I live, but using warm compresses and magnets - any horse-person worth his or her salt can do. Heck - a good OLD SCHOOL grooming using a cactus cloth, a switch of straw, or any old rag to rub shine into a coat - instead of using show sheen and slicker brush - will do wonders to increase blood flow and relieve tension. Let’s be honest, a lot of people just want to do everything in the shortest amount of time using the path of least resistance.[/QUOTE]
I knew someone was going to say that, and nearly did not post. Yes, you can find a number of these specialists on the circuit. I happen to be picky about chiropractors and certain other specialists, and have a very good team for my horses at home. I don’t let just any chiropractor near my horses. It was just an example.
As for taking shortcuts; I am sure we can all find examples of lazy people, greedy people, uncaring people, and even some cheaters, apparently. But on the whole, at the upper levels, I do think these horses tend to be pampered and fortunes spent on their care. My broodmares are treated like queens here, and lord knows their bills for their various specialists (nutritionists, saddle fitters, vets, top farriers, etc) far exceed anything I would ever spend on myself.
Jeez - you and DB aren’t the only ones who get a little comic/sarcastic/artistic license to make your points. How did I know there would be a hemorrhage over the lazy comment? :lol:
And where I came from, a whole lot fewer people doing so to a whole lot fewer horses.
I am sorry about your “navicular” pony. But I did know of more than one that were “miraculously” cured by Dr. Green.
Maybe you and YL wouldn’t trade the drugs of today for the schedule of 25 - 30 years ago. But I honestly don’t think I would at this stage of the game. I don’t know of anyone who had an ounce of respect back then that pounded their horses like is common today. I don’t care how many custom saddles, supplements, drugs and specialists in ancient Chinese healing arts you have, if you over use them, over travel them and never turn them out or let them down your gonna have more problems. They are still horses after all.
Honestly, do you think this trend is sustainable? Do you think the horses are happier? Healthier? And yes, I am asking in all seriousness!
SCFarm
I’ve never heard that Banamine can cover up a chronic, serious lameness any more than Bute will. Is that true?
No. In equal doses they do almost exactly the same thing. Although, anecdotically, lots of people feel that banamine treats muscle pain better than bute but is otherwise the inferior drug. Lots of people prefer one OTC NSAID to others for themselves too, but I don’t think you can really say there’s one that works better than the others on a universal basis.
Thermography was NOT used at the games. I’ve seen that mentioned in several articles, although this is the only one I can re-find right now of the ones I have read: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4598345.ece :
“For years skin swabs used to be taken and that gave way to thermal photography which, for some reason, was absent from these Olympics.”
*edited to add this one also: http://www.horse-canada.com/?p=1555
"Thermography was not conducted at the Games as the protocol has not yet been finalized, however, boot checks were performed on all horses when they exited the ring and there was no suspicion of hypersensitization at that time."
Ok, I know this is a post from page one. I’m sure that somebody has pointed this out already. but I just gotta say…
It may kill pain in some animals/people. It doesn’t in others. In others it absolutely does cause pain all on it’s own.
My SO brought some home once and we tried it on my acheing back. I could NOT RUN FAST ENOUGH to the shower to get that crap off of me. I know that there wasn’t a thing wrong with it, and that it had “the right amount” of the ‘stuff’ in the tube, and that the ‘stuff’ was pure and such. How do I know?? SO was the dude that TESTED the ingredients, the finished products and even did the spot checks on the weight/volumes of the finished products. The tube he brought home failed the quality check only because it was under filled by the machines. He was just happy there playing with the spectro-chromagraphy equipment…
I’m pretty sure it would sting somebody if you got a wack on a spot where it was applied.
[QUOTE=Pat;3469150]
Ok, I know this is a post from page one. I’m sure that somebody has pointed this out already. but I just gotta say…
It may kill pain in some animals/people. It doesn’t in others. In others it absolutely does cause pain all on it’s own.
My SO brought some home once and we tried it on my acheing back. I could NOT RUN FAST ENOUGH to the shower to get that crap off of me. I know that there wasn’t a thing wrong with it, and that it had “the right amount” of the ‘stuff’ in the tube, and that the ‘stuff’ was pure and such. How do I know?? SO was the dude that TESTED the ingredients, the finished products and even did the spot checks on the weight/volumes of the finished products. The tube he brought home failed the quality check only because it was under filled by the machines. He was just happy there playing with the spectro-chromagraphy equipment…
I’m pretty sure it would sting somebody if you got a wack on a spot where it was applied.[/QUOTE]
Yeah and think about putting that stuff on irritated skin! This is essentially what is being done, hot burny stuff put on rubbed-almost-raw skin would send anyone flyin!
[QUOTE=LLDM;3469093]
Maybe you and YL wouldn’t trade the drugs of today for the schedule of 25 - 30 years ago. But I honestly don’t think I would at this stage of the game. I don’t know of anyone who had an ounce of respect back then that pounded their horses like is common today. I don’t care how many custom saddles, supplements, drugs and specialists in ancient Chinese healing arts you have, if you over use them, over travel them and never turn them out or let them down your gonna have more problems. They are still horses after all.
SCFarm[/QUOTE]
Whoa, tiger. I was pointing out that there are some better options available for horses than there were 25 years ago. There are, I am sure, also more options available for people who want to take shortcuts, mask unsoundness, and cheat, none of which I personally condone. I think it IS productive to consider what has worked in the past (how is it that my trainer, for example, so frequently had horses campaigning sound into their mid-twenties, whereas that is less common today). In terms of managing horse’s show schedules and balancing these with adequate rest times, a major reason I own my own farm is so that I can make sure mine get the kind of turnout I think is important (and as for my youngsters, I do not think a boarding environment is ideal).
In terms of pounding, are people really pounding their horses more now than they did in the past? I recall 25 years ago showing throughout the year at every major show up and down the East Coast and some points west and horses showing in multiple divisions. But we had multiple horses and rotated their schedules; each had down time as well. We also jumped very little at home, and schooling at the shows consisted of popping over a trot jump, a vertical, and an oxer and going on that (my trainer ascribed to the theory that each horse has only a set number of jumps in him/her, and you were not to waste these). Otherwise, we primarily worked on the flat.
The only reason I am questioning whether a zero tolerance policy is the best, on balance, for the horses is because I would like to see regulations in place that are truly in the best interest of the horse, and not just ones that are more convenient or easy for regulators. It may very well be that zero tolerance is the only viable way to go. But in general, I think regulations and policies that are geared primarily to the lowest common denominator are not the best ones. People who are dishonest and want to game the system are always going to be out there and are going to try to do what they do regardless of what rules you make. Are the rules as currently drafted catching these people, or are they only catching the odd mistake with respect to therapeutic uses of meds? And are we doing the best by our horses by denying all horses any kind of med because there are some creepy cheaters out there? Given that some knowledgeable people have said that there is a real cheating problem out there, it appears the rules are doing a piss poor job of preventing these abuses. So what exactly are they accomplishing?
[QUOTE=YankeeLawyer;3468996]
I think most of these therapies are also used. Not all of them are that practical, though, unless you travel with an entourage of specialists for your horses.[/QUOTE]
If I owned a horse that was in the Olympics I am pretty sure I would have an entourage of specialists for the horse. 
I am very fortunate to have a vet close that does both Acupuncture and Chiropractics. Whenever any of my horses have had a physical problem at a show we just scratch them and take them home. There is always another show. The Olympics would be another story and careful consideration would have to take place if the horse should continue to perform or not. However, there isn’t anything worth breaking a horse for and I would never do anything that was considered illiegal or that could potentially put the horse in danger of being injured further.
[QUOTE=bluemoonfarms;3469191]
If I owned a horse that was in the Olympics I am pretty sure I would have an entourage of specialists for the horse.
I am very fortunate to have a vet close that does both Acupuncture and Chiropractics. Whenever any of my horses have had a physical problem at a show we just scratch them and take them home. There is always another show. The Olympics would be another story and careful consideration would have to take place if the horse should continue to perform or not. However, there isn’t anything worth breaking a horse for and I would never do anything that was considered illiegal or that could potentially put the horse in danger of being injured further.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but I thought we were discussing whether acupuncture, chiropractors and the like are a viable alternative to, for example, allowing some amount of NSAIDs or other chemical therapies (for lack of a better way to describe them) to be used while campaigning. And I agree re the Olympic horses, but the rules are not written to only apply to those horses (nor should they be written with only the lowest common denominator in mind).
Personally, I am with you re scratching. I just don’t care about winning that much, and I care a whole lot more about my horses’ welfare. But again, with respect to therapies, I am not talking about ones that render an otherwise unsound horse fit to show, but which make the horse that is going to show regardless more comfortable. Why should he have to suck it up if he could be more comfortable? And then there are stories like that one poster recounted regarding Authentic – colicing at the Games in 04 and being permitted NOTHING to alleviate discomfort? WTF? If the rules required that, I would scratch and would be administering whatever my vet advised in a NY minute. But I think it is unfortunate that that is the best our rules can do for us.
