What is killing recognized dressage shows?

[Manni01]

Yup agree with you .

I would say that I don’t necessarily agree with the people who think you need a big moving Warmblood to win…. Dressage is really about improving the quality of the gaits because the horse will be enabled to use his body better. True not every horse can win the Olympics but as far as I remember CatherineDufours first horse was kind of a wash out. She got him because it was in general assumed that he would not make it to the top because the quality of his gaits was not good enough…. And look how far they came because of exceptional riding….
Somebody who can not ride will destroy a big mover fast and somebody who is riding well can present an OTTB well enough to be competitive…didn’t we have a thread a while ago where everybody was complaining that a young pro was pushing an OTTB through 4 th level although the horse was pretty inexperienced?? I thought she was a very nice rider and seemed to ride all her horses extremely well…

But although I have no problems with the gaits I don’t believe everything is going perfect during shows… judges are humans and not machines…
And i think it’s ridiculous that some people here paint a very rosy picture of the judges…
This is my opinion based on my experience and I believe others have their experiences as well and have the right to have an opinion about it!!!

[VodkaRedbullx2]

Plus the politics. There is a lot of politics with the judging.

[millerra]

@Manni01

And i think it’s ridiculous that some people here paint a very rosy picture of the judges…
This is my opinion based on my experience and I believe others have their experiences as well and have the right to have an opinion about it!!!

But it’s ridiculous that some of us have had a positive experience with some judges…

alrighty then… be careful about whiplash.

[no anger here, just thought it was funny]

[DownYonder]

@Lunabear1988

In my area, it seems that the schooling shows are becoming non-existent and all there is now is rated shows. Maybe there’s less rated too but I’m not sure.

@barnesthenoble

The grassroots of the sport will continue to whittle away until such time it is nonexistent. It is a shame.

We are lucky in this area to have a pretty robust schooling show calendar that offers a plethora of opportunities year 'round at various farms and facilities (most of which are located within a few hours drive of each other). I think I counted somewhere around 70 or so on this year’s calendar, with the first show taking place the first weekend of February and the last one occurring the first weekend of December. All of these are recognized by a large and active GMO with a very good awards program that tracks points earned at these shows and holds a dressy, very well attended gala event in January where the top eight (?) finishers in each division are called up on stage by name and awarded huge rosettes, with the top 1-2 finishers also winning other prizes such as saddle pads, etc. It’s a big to-do, and young and old seem to really enjoy the event and are proud to show off their prizes to family and friends.

That said, we also now have over a dozen USEF/USDF competitions in the state (and Tryon is also within striking distance of most competitors in the northern part of GA). Some of the in-state shows are organized by the two local GMOs, some are organized by the farms that host them, and some are organized by a private show organizer who specializes in holding smaller recognized shows, mostly at “off-the-beaten-path” venues around the South. All the different showing options are a plus for competitors as they can pick and choose which ones to support based on location, judges, dates, etc., but it is a negative for the organizers because it generally means smaller entries at each show due to competitors electing to attend a different show on the preceding or following weekend.

As for the “grassroots” whittling away - as mentioned, it is alive and well at the schooling show level in this area. And that is due in large part to the willingness of farm owners to offer the schooling show opportunities, as well as the strong awards sponsorship of the GMO. Areas that don’t have suitable farms or facilities or dedicated organizers, or that level of GMO awards support, aren’t going to be nearly as successful in supporting or growing “grassroots dressage.”

[barnesthenoble]

I am in Northern California, and there is not a dearth of recognized shows. They rarely, if ever, fill anymore–but they run. But shows are frequently begging for volunteers, ending in the early afternoon, etc. There are some schooling shows, but as far as I know only one schooling show “series” remains of the many that used to be available and there is no unrated/schooling series gala-type event at all. All the other dressage schooling show series I know of have largely disappeared due to lack of support. There’s a handful of one-offs. I can think of maybe 15 within a 4 hour drive for the entirety of the year? Four within an hour, but several end up canceled and none are related to each other. Many of the ones that do come out to support the schooling shows are eventers and western dressage riders. Several end up canceled due to lack of entries.

Looking back through the CDS show calendar and there are quite a few smaller shows that canceled during what used to be a very busy spring and summer. CDS is a large GMO, but it is not thriving like it used to, which is sad because even 10 years ago it was struggling but not on this level.

I don’t think dressage will disappear–there are plenty enough well-funded individuals at a high level that it will certainly remain somewhat robust in the coasts if nowhere else–but in my area at least, which is considered very dressage-y by many standards, the shows and participation are shrinking. I don’t see much interest in youth participation except from the very wealthiest. Chapter members are aging out. And many of us in between have stepped away for the reasons elucidated in my many posts above. YMMV, of course.

I really, truly used to try to defend the sport and its people. I’ve made some wonderful friends, but have also been reminded that the DQ stereotype is not without merit. If nothing else, this discussion has removed some of the sting that has lingered from deciding I don’t want to pursue my medals. It’s been a year since I quit volunteering and I haven’t had the unique experience of leaving a show feeling defeated and belittled since. Some folks here do a great job of bringing it back.

[pluvinel]

@Silverbridge

-snip

Look, for example, at Training Level Test 3. There are 13 boxes for scoring and ALL 13 of them mention quality of gaits. EVERY BOX! What choice does the judge have at this level, other than to factor in the quality of the gaits?

But then, move up the levels to take a look at Fourth Level Test 3. Now we have 22 boxes in which to earn scores. And only THREE out of the 22 mention quality of gaits. Instead of “quality” the words regularity, engagement and straightness are repeated in the directives much more often. Any horse of any breed can demonstrate regularly and engagement & straightness to the extent that its conformation allows.

In both tests the score for Gaits is included in the Collective Marks but as in all tests, it’s a coefficient of 1, and Impulsion & Submission are the coefficients of 2. Therefore the quality of natural gaits is absolutely considered but it’s possible and available to any horse to outscore the fanciest mover in the Impulsion & Submission categories. Particularly in Submission.

What I take from that analysis (and from my experiences scribing) is to acknowledge that the bias toward fancy movers is indeed inherent in the lower level competition– but to stick with it because the directives and expectations themselves serve to level the playing field as we work our way up.

Why should someone showing at the lower levels continue to get poor scores just to lose to the horses with the “bling gaits” and hope that they can come out the other side with a 3rd-4th level horse? No one I know is that much of a masochist.

If dressage is truly about “training” of the horse (rather than an evaluation of the natural talents of the horse), then why not judge the qualities inherent in training?

The Training Pyramid starts with Rhythm - Suppleness - Contact.
https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition/The_New_Pyramid_of_Training_Marilyn_Heath.pdf

Why not emphasize those qualities in the lower level tests? Why not have internal consistency between what is being used as the stated stepping stones for training…and the evaluation criteria for how that training is being judged?

The Dressage Decisionmakers should not be puzzled when people drop out dressage competitions when they can’t see any value in showing.

[Silverbridge]

I didn’t say anything about poor scores. I perceived people complaining about not winning.

There’s a difference. But, maybe I misunderstood.

[pluvinel]

@Silverbridge

I didn’t say anything about poor scores. I perceived people complaining about not winning.

There’s a difference. But, maybe I misunderstood.

“Poor scores” = not winning.

You don’t win with “poor scores” and you win when you get “good scores”

[skydy]

For California riders; Is it possible that the Vesicular Stomatitis outbreak may have contributed to the decline in entries this year?

[Silverbridge]

I just scored a 70.800 even with an off course error at Training 3 with my new young PRE last weekend. We came in second, Adult Am. The horse that came in first place ahead of me (73%) is a WB by Furstenball, and a perfect example of the big, floating, leg-flinging gaits that are so often discussed online.

I didn’t get a poor score. I got a good score. And I still didn’t win. The floating, uphill Furstenball a friend of mine bred and owns did. And I’m not crying about it, not even a little bit.

Like a lot of competitors I love my horse, have so much fun showing him off, and see the bigger picture. Which is that maybe we will come out on top at 3rd/4th Level, when the tests ask for more of what mine ought to be able to do better. Like by the time we get to levels asking for more movements and more tests of the balance, straightness, submission, etc.

I don’t think that kind of long-range hope makes me a masochist. I thought it was just being realistic. But I doubt many masochists self-identify as such. So it’s possible.

[sparkygrace]

What do you consider a “poor score?”

[Snow_Mass]

VS outbreak cause the decline in shows for CDS for 2023?
Minimal show cancellation and most competitors accepted the additional biosecurity measures to compete. EHV-1 caused some shows to be canceled in 2022 too.

[barnesthenoble]

I don’t know how many ways we can say that it’s not about winning until we’re heard. Maybe there’s no way to express this frustration without inevitably being chalked up as jealous folks with sour grapes. I don’t know. These are just a selection of quotes from the first 70 posts and the last 70, I don’t have time to scroll endlessly.

These same issues were discussed six years ago, and I Know they were being discussed before that, and the issue is only worse now IME.

To a not insignificant portion of people, it no longer feels like we’re being judged against an ideal. It feels like we’re being judged against the extremely fancy horses in our classes. The goalposts keep moving and the expectations changing.

For me and many of us, it was never about winning. I was thrilled when I came home with a 67% and dead last at 1-3 on my TB. Thrilled!!! Now I see horses that I would argue are nicer, although still off breed, struggling to get low 60s ridden equally as well in the same tests.

@netg

. I believe that right now dressage show judging is fairly schizophrenic. I think we have an excellent training program in this country, however the schizophrenia is starting at the international level and affects everyone else. The previous disregard for any amounts of tension in international competition, to the current trend to prefer relaxation, and the still obvious split in opinions for some horses at the international level means the goal of what we are aiming for in competition changes dramatically from one judge to another. Some judges still penalize me for not making my horse carry her head at a height even with her withers, or think I need to ride her at a fast tempo. Others will penalize me if I don’t successfully convince my horse to go at the tempo which allows the most swing through her topline given she naturally tends toward over tempo. Some couldn’t care less if I have my reins too short and make my horse stay behind the vertical, whereas others say my horse is above the bit if her nose comes even with the vertical. It makes it so I have no idea how I’ll be judged or why, and comparing scores from one ride to the next isn’t necessarily meaningful. Since I get training at home, I only use shows to check in on our status at the time and have started dismissing scores to some extent - I can have a 62% which fits my training standards and I am thrilled with and a 68% in which I’m disappointed in myself and my riding. Not knowing what the judge will be looking for that day has caused that - there just no longer seems to be a consistent idea of what is ideal, much less judging according to working toward it.

@tm1

When I grew up, riding flat moving horses that came from who-knows-where, we were happy with a grass arena that didn’t have too much of a slope! Now there are excellent footing options, that allow today’s bigger moving horses to put in better performance.

@MysticOakRanch

Having said all that - I seriously think the BIGGEST increase in cost is in the quality of horse needed to really be competitive, AND the cost of training. 20 years ago, I could be competitive on my backyard horse, taking a lesson every week or two. I didn’t need a fancy imported Warmblood, and a full time trainer to keep my horse tuned up. Now - if I want to be competitive, especially in some of the big dressage areas (I am in California), I need fancy, which means expensive. I need a trainer - and that is more then a house payment! So many of the grass roots, working class, non-1% riders are re-evaluating their priorities. Some are finding ways to buy the fancy horse and keep it in training, but many are moving to schooling shows, or Western Dressage, or just writing off the show ring entirely. The increased importance of big gaits has meant fewer grass roots people feel they can be competitive.

This gal above is in my area and speaks of people who I know. This was 6 years ago.

@hoopoe

On a different note, I feel the effort the USDF / Federation made to make riders qualify to advance ( due to all the HORRILE RIDING they say the judges were seeing) left a bad taste in many peoples mouths. Even the Nerd Herd could not sooth the ruffled feathers

It left people riding Average Joe horses feeling like they were not welcome to come and strive to put forth their best effort to get a 62 on their 6 moving horse

@TwoTrickPony

what used to be more that the average person could work hard and take an average horse is becoming less a reality. There are people with a lot of money who can pay for everything. I have and always have done everything by myself–training, riding, all the work. I get a lesson an average of every six months and do the best I can. I have a very old truck and trailer and keep my horses at a pretty reasonable rate because I work hard. Most of the people I compete against even with less experience are paying expensive board, bought an expensive horse, have a nice trainer to watch and help them every week and at shows. And I think the big gaits, as she mentioned is an issue.

@MysticOakRanch

I don’t have the answer - but I am seeing the trends, and thinking TPTB aren’t really in touch with the grassroots membership - many of whom are disenfranchised. I have a lot of friends who haven’t shown for at least 10 years now - they still ride, they still have a horse, but have dropped showing and memberships out of their budget. And they don’t seem to be missing it.

@soloudinhere

Also I have noticed that the judging at the lower levels seems really harsh which makes it tough to convince people to go on and try higher levels or keep training. It seems to me that the days of “any horse can eventually get passable scores at second level” are diminishing with the emphasis on huge gaits and extravagant necks.

@soloudinhere

Well, that depends on what is considered respectable. In this region even if you qualified for Regionals with less than 70%, you won’t get a ribbon there without it, so it makes the qualification kind of moot for the money spent.

I know many people in this region who have judges they just won’t bother to show under because history has proven that there’s no way to work a good score out of that judge for their particular horse. That’s fine, but for $400+ a day, it would be nice to not get a 55 on a horse who a week before got a 68 from someone else. More uniformity in the judging would go a long way towards bringing the grassroots base back.

@myhorsefaith

So Then you have these folks who are already a bit stretched financially watching these shows, seeing who goes, and they see big fancy moving horses that cost a bundle, and riders and trainers on really nice horses and in fancy clothes- that is the impression they get. They make judgements on how much it costs and what they would need financially to play in the same sandbox. They perceive that they need to have that big fancy horse to be competitive, connected to a one of the trainers, they can’t go it alone. They add it up.

…

Then they look back at their average horse and their leftover cash after paying the bills and decide that they just don’t have the funds/schedule/time to do what it takes to fit into that picture of what they see at the shows. It is all, collectively, too much. There are other equine activities that are far more accessible to them, and they would feel more comfortable participating in- because it is so much easier and takes so much less in so many areas in their lives.

@MysticOakRanch

No one wants to go to a show and be in 8th place every single time because their horse will never be more then a 6 mover.

@MysticOakRanch

I am in California - there is a LOT of dressage. There are a lot of us who are not “re-riders on their first dressage horse” BUT - we can’t afford to buy a fancy horse and keep it in training. So there are more and more less experienced riders on fancy horses in full training who are winning in the AA and Jr/YR divisions. I showed at Championships two years ago - there were about 30 horses in my class, and MOST of them were Warmbloods (2 were not). There were two of us in the entire class (First Level AA) doing it on our own. Every. Single. Horse was in training. In the Warm Up ring, the ring was surrounded by trainers and Comteks. Every rider in the ring had a trainer in their ear. I’m NOT saying that is a bad thing, but I am saying it puts competition out of reach for the grassroots of this sport. And that is a big reason WHY shows are smaller.

@pheasantknoll

I think part of the problem is the judging, and not just inconsistency. As an amateur without a big budget and who has to trailer to every lesson, I am trying hard. If my body doesn’t look that supple in the trot, you can bet I already know that. I don’t need snarky comments from the judge. In my opinion, there is no excuse for some of the judges comments I have seen on my tests and those I have read online. I welcome constructive criticism but not nasty and mean. I can keep progressing in my lessons without your snarkiness, thanks. I don’t need to spend money to have someone say mean spirited things.

@barnesthenoble

I had multiple eye-opening conversations with judges where they raved about the improved quality of horses vs 20 years ago and would make less-than-pleasant comments about off-breed horses. Never outright mean, but it was simply clear that they were not enjoying judging the plainer horses, and the scores reflected it. The fancy moving WBs got forgiven for mistakes that nailed other horses.

@barnesthenoble

I had no delusions about winning, and had long-since accepted that I’d be riding against myself, not for a ribbon. But it no longer feels like I would even stand a chance of getting a respectable score for the test I put in, let alone that some of my medal scores would even be attainable on the horses I ride.

@yaya

I can’t ride those horses, nor do I want to. So I ride what I can, but even riding for my own scores, being perpetually judged as only “marginal” with the occasional “satisfactory“ starts to get discouraging.

@netg

It annoys me that with my good mover, I can score 15-20% better in a test I feel is somewhat insufficient than I would have in the equivalent with my older mare.

@barnesthenoble

As I mentioned before, I don’t need to win. It’s nice to feel like I have a chance, but that’s not my why. But after enough experiences in the scribe seat to feel like I would be seen as foolish for even showing up on my cute but by no means fancy TBs, presenting the best we can on that day…why? Why bother?

@barnesthenoble

the minimum bar has still been set to above average. A 6 (or even, gasp, a 5 on a bad day) mover was never likely to win, but if the test was accurate and the training good for the horse, it was possible to be rewarded with something in the mid-60s. In my region, at least, that is no longer the case.

@Edre

Why should I pay a good deal of money to ride in front of a judge/seek scores from a judge who can’t look past gaits as a determinant of scores? Judging bias/judges’ education I think is a fair thing to bring into this conversation. As I mentioned above: I never had sour grapes losing to a test as well ridden as mine to a better moving horse, but when I rode a more correct test and the difference in scores (my horse was more submissive, we were more correct, we didn’t have any errors in the movements) but we still lost to a horse that had major snafus (pilot error/forgot movement; major submissveness issues, not a well ridden test, what-have-you) but with better gaits because they were flashier, more eyecatching, or otherwise just had more dynamic gaits.

@enjoytheride

I have 2 horses I show right now in dressage. An arabian and a horse who looks like a small WB. I am the same rider who has trained them. It is eye opening that my arabian on his best day was beaten by my mini WB who got to X and waived her front legs around in the air and had to be muscled around the ring for the rest of the test.

@barnesthenoble

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ve said repeatedly in my comments that it was never about winning, or even particularly about being in the ribbons. Of course that’s a fun bonus, but not something I ever expected nor something I’m particularly upset about–I knew when I started my dressage journey that I wasn’t ever going to have the fanciest, best prepared horses. I always just wanted to show myself and my horse to the best of our ability, and get a fair evaluation from a judge of how we’re doing. Hopefully improve my scores s time goes on to reflect increased training and ringcraft. Hopefully get my medals. I never had the money or desire to pursue qualifying for regionals, I really just wanted my medals.

After several years of scribing multiple (usually 6!) times a year, I no longer feel that I will be judged fairly. Not competitively–just fairly.

@BatCoach

yeah, after overhearing a judge say “I just got back from Aachen and Its so hard to watch these TBs and QHs” my first thought was well lady, you are literally being PAID to watch those TBs and QHs. I’m sure judging Training Level tests gets dull, but that is the job you signed up for. Really disheartening.

@Salty

I’ve also gotten what I considered free scores on good movers that consistently scored 8 or 9 on gaits but carried a lot of tension that would not be forgiven in a TB or an Arabian.

@pluvinel

He said people may not like the results of how they are evaluated but they are willing to accept the judgement if they consider the system by which they were evaluated to be fair.

Based on the comments here, it seems there is not a lot of faith in the current dressage judging system.

@mvp

It is fine to generally argue that if you don’t like the rules, don’t enter (or, by the same token, don’t apply to join the racist country club while being black or Jewish). But accepting that kind of bias as a kind of implied consent by folks who stay in the sport works to preserve that bias. And, I promise you, it shrinks the sport.

As an aside it’s kind of a bummer for horses and riders “of mediocrity.” I could be wrong about this, but that’s because, as I understood it, dressage training produced the best gaits possible for a horse because it encourages the correct use of his body. He will be strong and supple at the end, plus a light, responsive horse to ride. His rider, along the way, learns a lot of feel and timing, and how to ride a horse to the most correct use of his body possible.

@Dressurfrau

You have to learn from showing, not be eviscerated because they don’t like your horse. Everyone should be judged fairly.

@barnesthenoble

his thread is frustrating because despite the best attempts by several of us to explain why we’ve stopped showing and no longer feel it is worthwhile or that we and our horses are welcome, multiple folks are telling us how we should feel about our own experiences or that it’s essentially our own fault

@pluvinel

If dressage is truly about “training” of the horse (rather than an evaluation of the natural talents of the horse), then why not judge the qualities inherent in training?

[pluvinel]

@sparkygrace

What do you consider a “poor score?”

Anything below the #1 score.

[sparkygrace]

Well, that’s not what competing is all about for most people, especially amateurs. An experienced competitor knows what a good score is for their particular horse. They know their horse’s strong and weak points. They look forward to feedback from the judge to learn what could addressed in their training (but more likely they already know.)

Most of all, showing can be fun. A good competitor can shake off a disappointing score and work to improve next time. If I meet the standard with my decent moving horse, ride an accurate and smooth test, but get beat by a flamboyant six-figure import, I can still consider my ride to be a success.

[SillyHorse]

@pluvinel

@sparkygrace

What do you consider a “poor score?”

Anything below the #1 score.

I think that’s unrealistic. A score of 70% or better often is not enough to be the #1 score. But it is in no way a poor score.

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

I think that’s unrealistic. A score of 70% or better often is not enough to be the #1 score. But it is in no way a poor score.

@sparkygrace

Well, that’s not what competing is all about for most people, especially amateurs.

Different strokes for different folks. You do you and I do me.

When I was competing my stallion, I went to the competition to COMPETE. It was not a social event.

I took lessons from my regular trainers for training the horse. This is where I got feedback on what were our good points and what were points that needed to be improved and worked on.

For competition preparation, I took test riding sessions from R/I judges for (a) how to best ride the movements and (b) showmanship for what the judges were looking for. I was at the competition to present my horse to the best I could with the intent of WINNING…gasp!

If after all this prep it was decided I was not competitive, I did not compete.

I had a full time day job and was the prototypical adult amateur.

[sparkygrace]

Yes, you do you. Getting feedback from a trainer at home is great, but getting feedback from a judge when riding a test is not the same. I consider a test in competition to be a way to see if my training is correct. I’ve seen plenty of riders, pros and amateurs, perform movements incorrectly in tests. If they do it all the time, obviously their training lacks something and they need to rethink what they are being taught.

[pluvinel]

@sparkygrace

Getting feedback from a trainer at home is great, but getting feedback from a judge when riding a test is not the same.

Did you read what I wrote? I separated training from showing.

@pluvinel

I took lessons from my regular trainers for training the horse. This is where I got feedback on what were our good points and what were points that needed to be improved and worked on.

For competition preparation, I took test riding sessions from R/I judges

Yes, riding in a show brings in additional distractions, but I prepared by taking the horse to shows HC or to hunter paces or to hunts just to get it used to strange happenings.

You do you. Have fun.

[sparkygrace]

I plan to “do me.” There are plenty of people on this board who will agree or disagree with one of us and I’m sure we’ll hear from them.