What is killing recognized dressage shows?

[Velvet]

I know there are some areas where dressage shows are packed, but this is not about those shows.

Based on some cursory views of some of the show secretarial service sites, it seems that a lot of shows in less dressage-y areas are seeing fewer competitors. Where the shows used to be packed, or worthy of being three days long, now it seems they can’t run a full two days. Most are cut a bit short each day.

I know that for me, the $$$ being asked these days is something I find ridiculous. The fees for the national organizations are getting too high for me, and then the fact that most shows are now charging “jump out” fees if you keep your horse in your trailer is driving me batty. The stall fees are high, but now there’s not a good way around that. And just the basic class fees seem to be growing each year.

Is it the professional secretarial service fees that are also driving up the overall expense? Have judges fees gone up that much? Is it the airfare and hotel for the judges? Honestly, it just seems the fees are growing more quickly than our economy and some are being left out nowadays.

Or is it something else that is making fewer people get out and participate in recognized dressage shows these days?

Thoughts?

[tarheelmd07]

I am lucky to be in an area with a lot of show options and show in both recognized dressage and eventing - but I do think the cost of recognized shows (especially all the fees) is perhaps keeping some folks away. For a show near me last weekend - which had a $30/day grounds fee for trailering in or $110 for a stall for the 2-day show - between the office fees, drug fees, etc. I was at $126 in fees if I trailered in or $176 in fees if I had a stall before I even entered a test. With the price of tests at this show ranging from $35-$55, you were looking at the cost of almost an additional test per day just to trailer in. Perhaps decreasing the grounds fee would encourage people to come and show one day…and better to have them show up one day than not at all! I know showing is expensive and there are lots of costs to cover…but with the costs of recognized events in my area (which mostly run over 1 day so you don’t have to stable), it’s cheaper for me to go to a recognized event than to go to a dressage show and do two tests…

Also in our area, there have been concerns about scheduling, footing, show logistics addressed to show management over and over…and when none of these issues are acknowledged or addressed, people vote with their feet and choose other show options.

In our area there is a robust schooling show schedule and some very strong GMOs, so people have the option to get their horses out and about showing at nice facilities and in front of good judges…so we have lots of riders who stick to the schooling show circuit unless they want to pursue scores for medals, USDF awards, etc.

[mvp]

I think DressageWorld is probably following the trajectory that HunterWorld took when it “industrialized” and made shows into big, professional affairs. Back in the day, one-off charity shows had lots and lots of volunteers making things go. More recently, that was true in dressage world. Not every one’s hand was open and waiting for money. In the PNW, I have been to recognized shows that require some volunteer time or a “buy your way out” fee to be paid instead.

In short, it’s probably the cost of labor (in addition to the cost of land, such that venues want their money) and the layers of regulating organizations above that drive up prices and drive out some patrons.

[Willy_Von_Whompers]

Fees to join all the various associations are a killer. And in Canada, I resent enormously paying money to EC. They are a textbook example of a cluster****. They do nothing at all for their grassroots base.

[SendenHorse]

For me it’s bad footing at show grounds and choice of judges- makes it less economical and worthwhile to spend the money.

Oppritunity classes brings the cost down for a lot of people- that is a great thing!

[Draftmare]

I was thinking about doing a rated show later this year, but then started to add up all the fees. And it just kept adding up…and up…and up…to the point where I could do two unrated shows for the price of one rated show. I decided to go with the two unrated shows. I am only showing training level anyway.

It does really bug me when I see “haul in fees,” somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is just a way to gouge competitors as it costs the show grounds close to nothing to let me park there. When all was said and done, for that particular show I would have had $125 in just fees for showing up, and then had to add the actual cost of tests on to that.

[Sturmunddrang]

Too many fees and way too expensive to show. Every year I show recognized less and less.

[Libby2563]

I was curious about whether entry fees have really gone up that much so I pulled the oldest entry I have in Equestrian Entries (the online entry system). It’s from six years ago (April 2011). Two classes (4th level freestyle on Sat and PSG on Sun) plus haul-in fees for both days totaled $255 ($75 per class, $30 haul-in fee per day, $15 D&M fee, $30 office fee).

Compare to last weekend. PSG on both days and two days of haul-in fees cost $266. $70 per class. D&M fee is now $16 instead of $15. Office fee was $50 instead of $30 but this is a benefit show and $25 is donated. Around here office fees are typically still $30-35. Haul-in fees were the same.

So not much difference over the last six years, in this area anyway. Over what timeframe have you noticed this difference, OP?

Haul-in fees are not a new thing at all here and are fully justified, IMO. Trailers take up space and people often don’t clean the manure and trash out of their area. They also often use wash racks and other show facilities.

[alibi_18]

@Willy Von Whompers

Fees to join all the various associations are a killer. And in Canada, I resent enormously paying money to EC. They are a textbook example of a cluster****. They do nothing at all for their grassroots base.

Oh, but we’re gonna get wine discount with our EC membership!

… Facepalm…

[trubandloki]

@Draftmare

It does really bug me when I see “haul in fees,” somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is just a way to gouge competitors as it costs the show grounds close to nothing to let me park there.

I agree with what Libby posted (quoted below). Your haul in fee pays to clean up the mess left and make repairs when people park their trailer in a spot it should not be parked and all that.

@Libby2563

Haul-in fees are not a new thing at all here and are fully justified, IMO. Trailers take up space and people often don’t clean the manure and trash out of their area. They also often use wash racks and other show facilities.

[kris0227]

I’ve thought about this a lot lately actually… I’m trying to qualify for regionals and if the stars align, the dressage finals. I have a non-dressage bred pony (read: draft pony), so the lower levels are my only shot at getting scores high enough to do this. But then I look at the costs of the shows around me, only one offers a trailer-in fee, the others charge $150-200 for a stall for the weekend, a 1 day stall will cost you $100. I’m sorry, I don’t have that kind of money to just be throwing around. Not to mention the high class fee cost of regionals and finals are insane, I would actually prefer to not have the prize money, but have reasonable class fees at these events. One of our local venues even requires you to either buy their shavings (minimum of 2 bags at $10 each) or pay a $20 disposal fee… I like paying double for things, don’t you?!?

All that being said, the show we do have that has trailer-in fees, also has the lowest class fees per show and uses the professional secretarial classes. I can go there, show 2 classes with a qualifier on one, pay the trailer-in fee, have a lovely time for only $151 (less than the cost of a stall at other facilities). If we had more shows in THIS category, there might be more interest in recognized shows. They might have a little more interest too if All Breeds Awards and other such programs, didn’t require 4 shows and 8 scores at a level, this can get very expensive very fast depending on where you live. I get that there will be people that abuse the trailer-in option and don’t clean up after themselves, but that’s where accountability comes in… Don’t punish everyone because of a couple bad apples.

[Nestor]

The cost, for sure.

Around here, tests at a schooling show are $30-$40. Maybe you have a $10 office fee. So you’re spending $60-$90 for a show, plus trailering and coaching.

A recognized show is more like $400 per day, once you’ve joined USEF/USDF, paid all of the office/drug fees, paid for a stall, etc., plus trailering and coaching. (Doing this math from memory, as I just have NOT bothered to even consider it after learning that a local 2-day recognized show would cost me over $1000. I don’t want my bronze that bad.) No one I know wants to try to qualify for regionals or get their medal, they just want to ride, learn, and have fun. So they can’t justify the exorbitant cost of recognized shows.

Yea, give me a schooling show any day. The judges at our schooling shows are generally pretty good, though we are selective generally about which judges we ride in front of. The perks of being in New England!

Personally, I’d rather ride in a clinic with a good clinician than show. We have access to quite a few big name trainers and judges, so why not get their feedback for a 45-60 minute ride than on a test?

[netg]

The fees to USEF/USDF really grate on me, as they make it clear they have little interest in taking into account the geography of the country and those of us who aren’t their “key demographic” aka those who aren’t the chosen few.

Financial reports from the GMO showing tens of thousands of dollars in the show committee account, yet despite the many times I have volunteered and at most I get a free meal if I work all day is also de-motivating when it comes to writing them a check. I also love scribing, which is yet more reason not to show so I can do that.

We have a summer series put on by a private individual who gets the shows on the omnibus so they count for qualification, etc. They also cost me $200 less than the GMO shows. She’s still making money on them, is friendly and helpful about it, and gives discounts for various reasons ranging from volunteering to perfect entries. She also charges less for stalls and provides a free tack stall if you have 4 people from your barn showing. I show in this series and haven’t shown many other shows because I am just not that into showing.

And that brings me to the other point - why many of us are not that into showing. I believe that right now dressage show judging is fairly schizophrenic. I think we have an excellent training program in this country, however the schizophrenia is starting at the international level and affects everyone else. The previous disregard for any amounts of tension in international competition, to the current trend to prefer relaxation, and the still obvious split in opinions for some horses at the international level means the goal of what we are aiming for in competition changes dramatically from one judge to another. Some judges still penalize me for not making my horse carry her head at a height even with her withers, or think I need to ride her at a fast tempo. Others will penalize me if I don’t successfully convince my horse to go at the tempo which allows the most swing through her topline given she naturally tends toward over tempo. Some couldn’t care less if I have my reins too short and make my horse stay behind the vertical, whereas others say my horse is above the bit if her nose comes even with the vertical. It makes it so I have no idea how I’ll be judged or why, and comparing scores from one ride to the next isn’t necessarily meaningful. Since I get training at home, I only use shows to check in on our status at the time and have started dismissing scores to some extent - I can have a 62% which fits my training standards and I am thrilled with and a 68% in which I’m disappointed in myself and my riding. Not knowing what the judge will be looking for that day has caused that - there just no longer seems to be a consistent idea of what is ideal, much less judging according to working toward it.

[vali]

Excessive fees, having to join too many organizations, lack of fun or group activities, and no prizes to speak of. I’m primarily an eventer (Prelim level) but do quite a few dressage schooling shows. I went to a USDF three day rated show in our area at a venue that I regularly event at in an attempt to get the little grey mare to finally relax about dressage, and the contrast was amazing. For a 3 day show it was significantly more expensive than an event, and leaving aside that we didn’t get to jump things, it just wasn’t as much fun. At an event they have a competitor party with free dinner, sometimes a welcome goody bag. There’s generally a festive atmosphere with drinks flowing freely after riding and lots of friendly people. At the dressage show the only activity besides the classes was shopping at the two mobile tack stores, which were exorbitantly pricy (is everything more expensive in dressage?) It was a successful show in that my hot little mare looked around and realized there were no jumps and put in three respectable tests, and by some miracle we won our first level division. No awards ceremony (unlike the exciting victory gallop at events), and our prize was three tiny ribbons for the three classes, and a small ribbon for the division award. At an event there are often prizes to fifth or even eighth place, and if you win your division you would usually get something like an engraved halter, cooler, or sometimes cash, as well as a very large ribbon. Something seemed out of whack, and I haven’t been eager to repeat the experience, even though it was excellent training for my mare, who usually tries to levitate out of the dressage ring and over to the jumps.

[RTF]

I have just moved up from schooling shows to rated in the past three years. For me, it’s the overall costs of going, hotels, stall fees, hauling, throw in coaching, and all of the other fees and it adds up quick. The costs are high compared to one day schooling shows, but the hardest part is actually getting away from my farm. Being a mom, and running a small boarding farm, it’s not like I can just pick up my horse and go. I hate not to support our local venues, and hope they stay going as our options are fairly limited without driving three plus hours.

[Velvet]

So, large fees for the associations are some part of the problem. (Seriously, think about someone going for a medal and having to spread out their showing over years–and paying that full fee to them, plus show fees, every single year—that adds up!)

Haul-in fees are crazy high in some areas. I see that as a way for management to make some serious money in those areas. Using the facilities or leaving a small mess does not justify crazy high fees. Ah for the days when there were no jump out/haul-in fees! Those shows still made money, but maybe people were just more polite back then and didn’t leave giant messes or use the facilities as much. I know I didn’t. I even brought water from home.

Does that open up another line of thinking? Are competitors sometimes to blame for the additional fees?

[tm1]

@Velvet

Is it the professional secretarial service fees that are also driving up the overall expense? Have judges fees gone up that much? Is it the airfare and hotel for the judges? Honestly, it just seems the fees are growing more quickly than our economy and some are being left out nowadays.

Thoughts?

Here are some things I’ve gleaned when talking to show managers:

Everything has gotten more expense: Airfare and hotel rooms are nuts this year. Judging fees have gone up not as much, but they have had to keep up with the increasing investment of time and money it takes to achieve each judging rank.

Facility rental is eye-wateringly expensive. Temporary stabling rental has gone up. A silly little thing like golf cart rentals - everywhere I’ve gone this year they have cost as much per day as a full size car rental.

The fees the managers pay to the various organizations have gone up, and the requirements imposed upon them in terms of the number of, and rank of, officials, especially from the FEI, have gotten ridiculous, so there are some managers who have opted for dropping the CDI portion of their shows, rather than follow the Euro-centric rules laid out by the FEI. These rules make sense when you have 60+ horses in a CDI, but not when you have 15.

Competitors are far more selective about footing now than a generation ago (thank heavens!!). When I grew up, riding flat moving horses that came from who-knows-where, we were happy with a grass arena that didn’t have too much of a slope! Now there are excellent footing options, that allow today’s bigger moving horses to put in better performance. But this footing isn’t cheap. So that’s another expense.

[kris0227]

@vali

Excessive fees, having to join too many organizations, lack of fun or group activities, and no prizes to speak of. I’m primarily an eventer (Prelim level) but do quite a few dressage schooling shows. I went to a USDF three day rated show in our area at a venue that I regularly event at in an attempt to get the little grey mare to finally relax about dressage, and the contrast was amazing. For a 3 day show it was significantly more expensive than an event, and leaving aside that we didn’t get to jump things, it just wasn’t as much fun. At an event they have a competitor party with free dinner, sometimes a welcome goody bag. There’s generally a festive atmosphere with drinks flowing freely after riding and lots of friendly people. At the dressage show the only activity besides the classes was shopping at the two mobile tack stores, which were exorbitantly pricy (is everything more expensive in dressage?) It was a successful show in that my hot little mare looked around and realized there were no jumps and put in three respectable tests, and by some miracle we won our first level division. No awards ceremony (unlike the exciting victory gallop at events), and our prize was three tiny ribbons for the three classes, and a small ribbon for the division award. At an event there are often prizes to fifth or even eighth place, and if you win your division you would usually get something like an engraved halter, cooler, or sometimes cash, as well as a very large ribbon. Something seemed out of whack, and I haven’t been eager to repeat the experience, even though it was excellent training for my mare, who usually tries to levitate out of the dressage ring and over to the jumps.

This is definitely show to show. Our smaller inexpensive shows don’t have any of that festive atmosphere and the one food truck closes it’s doors at 4pm (weird). But… it’s cheap to show there, so I don’t mind and I’m usually only going for the day.

In contrast, I’m signed up for National Dressage Pony Cup in a week and it sounds like a heck of a party being planned. There’s a party Friday night, a big dinner and competitor’s party Saturday night, all kinds of awards (and yes coolers for the breed award winners) and a vendor area as well. KDA (Kentucky Dressage Assoc) puts on some pretty fantastic shows, but being at KHP, they aren’t cheap and I can only afford to go to maybe one per year.

[ToN_Farm]

I don’t pay attention to areas outside my own, but I do look at my area’s show results, although not as much as I did when I was actively showing.

My opinion is that in my location there are too many shows, all within one hour or so distance. A lot of people van in and don’t have the stabling and hotel fees. Also, I don’t think money is the reason for low entries here. As dressage has gotten more popular and the quality of horses and riders increased, people are more selective about which shows they attend and only go to the bigger venues. There, they are likely to get different judges whereas at the smaller one day shows it’s the same judges over and over.

Again, I really do not think riders with the kind of quality horse it takes to be competitive at the higher levels is strapped for cash; at least not the ones I know that are showing around here. People that can afford six figure horses are not worrying about the cost of a stall or membership.

[CHT]

I am not sure that show fees have increased since I started showing dressage a decade ago. it was expensive then, and it is expensive now. I think the costs of running a show have gone up: the footing required to hold an FEI class is a six figure ring.

I think it is more that the amount of people that can actually afford to show is shrinking and/or that people’s priorities when it comes to spending is changing.

I also feel that the cost of a decent dressage lesson has gone up quite a bit from the early days, so people may be making the decision to lesson rather than show…or just ride for pleasure rather than both.