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What is killing recognized dressage shows?

Dressage
#21

LOL. I have come over to dressage because it is so cheap to show at a dressage show than at a H/J show. I tell my hunter friends how little it costs to show at a multi day dressage show and their jaws drop.

A fair % of association fees goes to pay for the Elite riders who go to Europe for training/showing. And also to go to the WEG and Olympics.

Any real change in the cost of going to shows needs to start with finding alternate funding for the Elite riders. The ‘old days’ of the mega wealthy donating millions of dollars to the AHSA ----> USEF -----> US?? are long gone.

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#22

I’ll just repeat what everyone else has said. It is all so EXPENSIVE!

ut want to start with - it is HARD to make much running a show. USEF and USDF paperwork requirements keep getting more and more complex, so you don’t see volunteers managing shows anymore - they are all paid show managers who specialize in running shows and can handle all the paperwork. So - start with office fees - which PAY the show manager. 20 years ago, a volunteer from a GMO would happily run a show - it was not a big deal. So now we have paid show managers.

Then - the show has to pay a TD and an EMT for the show. Plus the judge. Plus travel, hotel, meals for those three professionals. Hotel and travel costs have gone up - the actual pay to the Judge, EMT, and TD have remained pretty stable. But the travel costs are often MORE then the other costs anyway.

Then there is facility rental/use costs. This is why most shows now charge a Haul In fee - it has nothing to do with competitors misusing the facility, and everything to do with just PAYING for the facility. Stabling is a big profit center, so for those who don’t stable, a haul-in fee is just a way to get a bit of money from us to pay for the facility use.

So having said all that… Showing is freaking expensive! 10 and 20 years ago, class fees were about $40 to $45 around here. Now they are $55 to $65. Only the BIG shows charged office or haul-in fees. Usually $25 each. Now those same fees are about $30 to $35 each, and more of the smaller shows are starting to charge fees. Stabling is now $150 to $200 for a stall for the weekend - and double that if you want a tack room.

The USEF fees have increased too - we pay an extra $3 in California, and it is a total of $24 for drug and related fees! On top of haul in or stabling, office fee, and entry fees.

I use to be able to do 2 classes at a small one-day show for about $106. Now it is about $159 - IF I can find a small show. More likely, it is going to be a bigger show, and cost me $219 - and that is without a stall. I’m paying more primarily because everyone is paid - the show manager, , show secretary, the head scorer, the arena groomer, etc.

Then membership costs have increased. AND if you have to get a hotel yourself, all of that is more expensive now. I don’t think show fees have really outpaced inflation in general, but I think all the other costs of dressage have gotten out of hand, and there are fewer and fewer small volunteer staffed shows with lower costs for people to participate in, and the bigger shows ARE more expensive…

Having said all that - I seriously think the BIGGEST increase in cost is in the quality of horse needed to really be competitive, AND the cost of training. 20 years ago, I could be competitive on my backyard horse, taking a lesson every week or two. I didn’t need a fancy imported Warmblood, and a full time trainer to keep my horse tuned up. Now - if I want to be competitive, especially in some of the big dressage areas (I am in California), I need fancy, which means expensive. I need a trainer - and that is more then a house payment! So many of the grass roots, working class, non-1% riders are re-evaluating their priorities. Some are finding ways to buy the fancy horse and keep it in training, but many are moving to schooling shows, or Western Dressage, or just writing off the show ring entirely. The increased importance of big gaits has meant fewer grass roots people feel they can be competitive. That is MY take on it, imho.

16 Likes
#23

On a different note, I feel the effort the USDF / Federation made to make riders qualify to advance ( due to all the HORRILE RIDING they say the judges were seeing) left a bad taste in many peoples mouths. Even the Nerd Herd could not sooth the ruffled feathers

It left people riding Average Joe horses feeling like they were not welcome to come and strive to put forth their best effort to get a 62 on their 6 moving horse

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#24

I have been showing dressage 30 years. It’s a LOT more expensive. I used to be able to haul in and ride two classes for under $100. Now it’s $200. Almost all shows are online entries now, which is great, but that’s another 4% fee. They also never used to have haul in and secretary fees, which are now usually $25 each.

I live in the middle of an area with many, many shows. This year at least five shows were cancelled, including three major multi day ones. I cannot afford to show overnight somewhere and pay $200 for a a stall for a few days and $10 a bag of shavings. It seems to be a lot more multi day shows, which I get they make more money with and it’s a lot more efficient, but I can’t afford it.

I think it’s because dressage is a lot more popular and there are people with a lot of money who can afford this. WE are becoming what the hunter shows now.

And I agree with Mystic, what used to be more that the average person could work hard and take an average horse is becoming less a reality. There are people with a lot of money who can pay for everything. I have and always have done everything by myself–training, riding, all the work. I get a lesson an average of every six months and do the best I can. I have a very old truck and trailer and keep my horses at a pretty reasonable rate because I work hard. Most of the people I compete against even with less experience are paying expensive board, bought an expensive horse, have a nice trainer to watch and help them every week and at shows. And I think the big gaits, as she mentioned is an issue. I didn’t say it in that other thread, but that “amazing” foal looks just like the pretty Saddlebred foals in another thread. It’s too much you have the amazing horse and not enough the solid hard work.

Interesting topic because I notice this too, and then the cutback in the number of shows here. So the fewer shows we now have are filling. But since the championships are up here this year, it seems a bad year to cut back on the number of shows.

#25

Everyone seems to focus on “the cost.” Well, that’s part of the equation…

But IMHO, it isn’t the biggest variable. Everyone…all of us… make a “cost vs benefit” decision in how one spends money on our hobby.

And face it…most of us on this board ain’t going to the Olympics. So we spend money where our riding provides us with some fun, personal satisfaction and perhaps a even sense of accomplishment. And that “accomplishment” may not be a score in the dressage competition ring.

The following posters address the points that I feel are the biggest detractors from showing.

The Nerd Herd have data to show the variability in scoring. A paper was written and published in a peer-reviewed statistics journal. Do you think anyone in dressage community was interested?

Let me tell you a story about this kid, an emperor, and his clothes…

Ditto the above…And the Nerd Herd had data to prove netg’s statement…but, hey…“I’ve made up my mind, don’t bother me with data”…as one of our O judges recently stated in COTH (kinda…my paraphrase)

These folks said it better than me…

10 Likes
#26

Many more shows and larger ones in my area so I don’t know that anything is killing shows in Region9

#27

I’m making barely over half of what I made two years ago, so no, I’m not doing ANY showing right now. I don’t have a truck and trailer of my own, plus I live in a stupid expensive part of the country, so everything here costs an arm and a leg. My last show was 3 years ago. I showed recognized and it was a show only about 20 minutes from where I board. It still cost me $400+, which even at my salary back then was a lot of money. I realize that we get by cheap compared to the hunters and jumpers, but we also don’t usually get the opportunity to win any of our money back either.

What I really hate, though, is the HEAT. I probably won’t ever do that show again because it’s always in the middle-end of June and even though it’s super close to home, it’s just too darned hot to push through it. It’s difficult for me to breathe with it being so hot, plus you add show nerves on top of it? No, thank you. If I end up doing recognized shows, I’m going to aim for the ones that are in the spring and late summer/early fall. I’m lucky, though, because my trainer is a judge and I also have the opportunity to ride with 5* judge on a regular basis. It sucks not being able to afford to get my young horse out as often as I’d like, but for now, it is what it is. I’d worry more if he didn’t have such a great brain to begin with.

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#28

I agree with everybody else its crazy expensive. And our haul in fees are about the same as a stall. (like $10 difference) :frowning: so thats incredible expensive especially because there are shows where a stall is required (for the whole weekend) :frowning: I did not show in the last 2 recognized shows in the area, although I would have liked to ride my horse there in order to practice a little for regionals.

But $45 office fee, $18 drugfee, $150 for a stall( which I don’t even want) on top of the $45 for the class… That is $258 for one test (1st level) :frowning: :frowning: I think somebody lost contact to earth if they expect people to pay that…

NO I simply don’t want to do it… I will in the future show only what is absolutely necessary and will do more of our great schooling shows which I love…

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#29

I know! I was looking at those fees listed, and thought “sticker shock… you will know when you really get a bad case!” (the idea of under $200 in fees made me giggle since my Conyers h/j stall would be $250 and THEN add on fees).

That said, I’m now officially casually dabbling on the dark side, albeit in western dressage* but even when that changes, I’ll probably still stay more to the schooling side, and the reason why comes down to joining multiple organizations. If things go to MY plan, I’ll focus on CDE and have to join the ADS, as well as the NFHR as my primary orgs, and after a while you get Organization Fee Overload. It’s not worth it to join another one…

*I have a western saddle, I do not have a dressage saddle and after going over budget on a bathroom remodel, we are just going to play dressage with black jeans instead of white britches for at least the rest of the year. Also, I’m riding a young fjord. At this point he is still making the Fjord Case for Dressage which involves the head on a more horizontal than vertical plane. Once him and I see eye to eye on the more traditional approach to dressage, spending more money may be worth it, but probably not.

#30

Showing is a big investment in time, money and energy!! Until I feel I’m really ready to get the PSG scores I need for my Silver I’d rather focus on working with my trainer and enjoying myself and my horses at home . And – I’ve found its fun and way more relaxing to help friends at shows and “just spectate”.

4 Likes
#31

more indoor arenas/show grounds would help, I know it’s super $$$ but it would guarantee more predictability in footing and weather is a non-issue (mostly). I’ve had to abandon plans because of storms/mud a few times, and that starts to add up and makes me not want to play.

My friends show in western events/all around and they seem to have a better idea of how to make shows run in any condition, though they cost even more than a dressage show- by a lot.

I know people have to get ride times for tests, but some sort of day of sign up would be a dream come true for me. It’s very unrealstic but my friends who show other styles can decide that morning if the conditions are good and then pack and go.

#32

We have a bunch of “B” jumper shows in the area, and they are WAY cheaper then our small dressage shows. And we have a regional hunter/jumper schooling series (VERY competitive) that is also WAY cheaper then any of our area dressage schooling shows? Of course, you might end up paying more if you do more classes, but fee-for-fee, the hunter jumper shows have less expensive stabling and lower overall fees. It may vary by region - I see some people posting prices here that WE paid 20 years ago!

I agree that we all end up supporting the elite riders - in California, we pay an additional $3 just for travel grants for top competitors, on TOP of all the other fees and memberships. And sometimes I resent that, because I see some of those riders are VERY WEALTHY, or have very wealthy sponsors - and think why do they need so much for little ol’ me? And more importantly, as it all gets so expensive, all the “little ol’ me’s” start to drop out, which means there is more cost to be spread over a smaller pool of people.

I don’t have the answer - but I am seeing the trends, and thinking TPTB aren’t really in touch with the grassroots membership - many of whom are disenfranchised. I have a lot of friends who haven’t shown for at least 10 years now - they still ride, they still have a horse, but have dropped showing and memberships out of their budget. And they don’t seem to be missing it. One friend who hadn’t shown for many years just signed up for a show and she was shocked at the cost - and that is a small, less expensive show. I told her wait until she goes to one of the bigger multi-ring shows - be prepared for sticker shock…

5 Likes
#33

Too expensive, bad vibe/no community at the shows. Also, the costs of horsekeeping and training have gone up so much! Trainers charge way too much money for what they have to offer – I find it quite ridiculous when you consider what educated professionals get paid. There’s a coach in my area who has taken clinics with top pros but they have never taught/trained/showed a horse or another rider above 3rd level and yet want $65 to teach you for 45 minutes.

#34

It’s now a sport that caters to professionals and professional amateurs.

Also I have noticed that the judging at the lower levels seems really harsh which makes it tough to convince people to go on and try higher levels or keep training. It seems to me that the days of “any horse can eventually get passable scores at second level” are diminishing with the emphasis on huge gaits and extravagant necks.

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#35

I plan to show rated for the first time ever this year. Why I haven’t previously?

  1. Expense
  2. Crippling perfectionism on my behalf
  3. Perceived lack of community

Why am I showing this year?

  1. I have a little more money to throw away. :smiley:
  2. I’m finding that showing is helping diminish my stifling perfectionist tendencies, and my riding is improving because of it.
    ​​​​​​3. I have a good, supportive community to hang with.

Community means a lot to me, and when I hear consistently negative remarks about competitors from bystanders, it really turns me off. Good lord, would it kill people to be a little more kind with their judgement? Try to see the good as well?

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#36

What do you mean by “passable scores” – I have friends who are regular amateurs (i.e. people with full time jobs that have never owned more than one horse at a time, never ridden FEI, most of them in their first 5 years of showing) who are routinely getting 60+ and qualifying for regionals at 2nd level or above with the following: QH paint, haflinger, fjord, hackney/arab, shire/saddlebred, BLM mustang, several OTTB’s, clydesdale/TB, percheron/TB, welsh cob, arab. No, they are not beating the fancy purpose-bred WB’s that are being ridden by amateurs with FEI experience – you wouldn’t expect them to. But IMO they can still put in respectable tests, qualify to ride freestyles, make goals for achieving medals/bars, etc. I ride at a barn with an experienced FEI trainer who is quite open to all breeds. In fact every person who has come to the barn at training or pre-training level with such horses has been doing respectably at 2nd level (or beyond) within a few years if they stuck with it.

Frankly, I think it has gotten EASIER for all types of horses to get 60+ or qualifying scores over the past 10 years. I’m pretty sure the numbers would support that statement. Yes, there are also more very experienced amateurs, and more flashy-moving warmbloods, so it is getting much harder to win ribbons/placements, but IMO “respectable” scores are quite possible with any horse.

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#37

Well, that depends on what is considered respectable. In this region even if you qualified for Regionals with less than 70%, you won’t get a ribbon there without it, so it makes the qualification kind of moot for the money spent.

I know many people in this region who have judges they just won’t bother to show under because history has proven that there’s no way to work a good score out of that judge for their particular horse. That’s fine, but for $400+ a day, it would be nice to not get a 55 on a horse who a week before got a 68 from someone else. More uniformity in the judging would go a long way towards bringing the grassroots base back.

11 Likes
#38

I think it would help if people would specify what part of the country they are talking about - as the trends and the pressures on the sport are a lot different in various parts of the country.

I am in Western Washington. Here, we are seeing that a lot of individual shows are struggling and not getting the entries they used to. But here it is mostly because of several entities trying to expand faster than the market will allow. There is a new major show venue, and a couple of other venues that have increased the number of shows per year. The total number of people showing seems about the same as 5 years ago (or maybe down 5% or so), but the number of shows has increased dramatically, so the number of horses at any particular show is down, and some shows that used to make money are struggling.

In this area, many of the small, inexpensive, trailer-in shows have closed due to lack of participation. It seems that MOST dressage riders prefer the big shows at the fancy venues that make you pay for expensive stabling. So, that is what will survive. Quite unfortunate for the few who prefer (or need to do) the small trailer-in shows.

#39

I agree with a lot of the observations. In my area (Colorado, Denver metropolitan), the collapse of the economy, then building boom and bust again, took out a huge percentage of boarding barns within a reasonable commute of the city. We have fewer than half the boarding options that we had ten years ago and the dressage ones that remain are largely training board situations. You have to pay full training with their house trainer (average $800 to $900 a month–whether you use the training or not) on top of $900 to $1,100 in monthly board just to keep your horse. That makes the basic monthly expenses super expensive. Some people simply cannot afford $780 in show fees (what I paid for my last show) on top of that and other routine expenses. I will only show at one facility because it is the only one with good footing and that facility, for some reason, likes to hire harsh judges. So, as a friend put it, you pay all your discretionary income to get told you suck–that’s no fun! Scores can wildly vary from judge to judge also, which makes it kind of a joke too. My last show had a very poorly attended CDI (6 or 7 horses total entered the CDI!!!) and we were all stuck with a full panel of crabby international judges. I had scores vary as much as 11% between judges. People who scored 65% the week before, scored 53% at this show. Lots of people didn’t enter the show because of the judges who were selected. People who did show are now vowing not to show at that facility until they hire friendlier judges. But I think largely what has happened is that there is no way for people of more modest income to participate any more economically and showing is the first thing to be cut from a budget. I don’t think its possible to grow a sport where there is no entry level, no school horse barns,no reasonable places within driving distance of your job to board at. When all these things become difficult (keeping a horse, driving to the horse, etc.) and showing is no fun, well Buh Bye.

7 Likes
#40

Yes, the same in my area. Because at championships in the lower levels, you can easily have 40+amateurs in a class where many of them are riders with upper level experience bringing their 3rd or 4th horse up the levels, on a horse that was selected for FEI potential. No, a 40 y.o. re-rider, on their first dressage horse, of a non-traditional breed, that started as a “jack-of-all-trades” is NOT going to be competitive against that. But what do you expect? I mean you can’t just get rid of everyone who is really good so that the “regular people” can get ribbons.

IMO 60+ is a respectable score, means that you are making progress correctly toward the next level, and enables you to work at goals like freestyles, medals, bars, rider scores, qualifications, see your name in year-end rankings, all-breed awards for the non-traditional breeds, etc.

IMO it is a GOOD thing that the sport is progressing and that there are now more amateurs who are doing really well, with really good horses. As the sport grows and improves, the upper-end WILL get higher and higher. Therefore, it is only natural that there will be a bigger gap between the beginner on a budget and the upper end. This is a natural consequence of the sport progressing, not a problem with judging.

3 Likes

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