What is the difference between elephants and horses?

[NYCspaz]

I’ve had a brief discussion with another member here about this subject, and the topic came up again with some non-horsey friends the other day so I’m going to throw it out there in COTHland and see what y’all think.

I am what some might consider an ‘elephants’ rights activist’ on a very small scale (meaning I follow news on rescues and reservations, donate small money, sign online petitions, and am NOT a fan of elephants being used in the tourism industries in SE Asia and in circuses, zoos, etc). After seeing elephants in person in extremely sub-par conditions, including the wooden seats they put on their backs, making them dance to techno music, being chained in a pen for most of the day, I am firmly in the camp that we should let elephants be elephants in the wild. Of course, the ivory trade and poaching enrages me as well.

The discussion that has come up is how I can think that elephants should not be ridden or used for human entertainment yet I obviously have no problem putting a saddle on a horse’s back and jumping it over a fence or 12 on any given day.

My arguments are that there are only thousands of elephants left (in Thailand for example, there are only 4,000 and 3,000 are currently domesticated), we have bred horses for thousands of years to do what we want with them (compare a mustang to a warmblood, for example) and therefore they have a more natural inclination to domestic situations, and finally, I would be enraged if I saw horses in similar situations where most elephants live in touristic areas.

But then why would I pay to see a Lippizanner show but boycott a circus that uses elephants? Why have I paid for trail rides in touristic places where the horses were not pampered by any means (IE limited turnout, questionable tack)? Both horses and elephants are intelligent, emotional beings, but seeing one in a stall breaks my heart and seeing the other in a stall brings me joy.

I would love to hear what ye fellow horse people think on the subject.

Sincerely,

Elephant-Enthusiast Equestrian

[Abbie.S]

Well, sorry to say, but your views are pretty hypocritical and uneducated.

Elephants have a long history of working with humans as well. They have been used as pack animals and in war. Horses are not unique in the fact that they’ve coexisted alongside people for thousands of years.

Honestly, I think media hype on the subject of elephants is highly influential: we crate dogs, we stall horses, but elephants in captivity? Oh no! We don’t use elephants here in North America, so naturally we see them as wild animals. Educate yourself as to the history of many Asian cultures, and you will find elephants have played a huge role, as large as the horse.

[HungarianHippo]

I share your distaste for animal acts in circuses and theme parks – and I have the same opinion of horse operations where there is extremely limited turnout (and there are some disciplines that I find repulsive). But it’s tenuous to maintain that using elephants for entertainment is materially different than our use of horses.

I do think it’s ethically wrong to trap animals in the wild for purposes of our entertainment. And there seems to be a greater and more enduring “family bond” and cooperative herd society among elephants* – maybe that differentiates the two situations enough to support your case that elephants suffer more when they’re separated, moved around the country, etc.
*at least that’s what I read–maybe that is just a layman’s media storyline that’s not really supported by science? dunno.

But a few of your points don’t really support your case–
Poor living conditions: Just as there are many sub-par circus acts where animals are not treated well, there are probably tens of thousands of horses in the US alone who are not kept with high standards of care. And lots of horses who are considered well-kept never ever get to gallop around in huge pastures.

Scarcity: I don’t know enough about the industry to know whether trapping wild elephants is the usual method of acquiring them, or are they being bred in captivity? If bred in captivity, then that point pretty much goes out the window too.

[caffeinated]

I think that in many ways it’s easier for humans to meet a horse’s needs than it is to meet an elephant’s. Physically, they both are designed for lots of slow movement and walking over the course of the day. Horses can happily get this from turnout on several acres. Elephants would exhaust that space and feel more confined simply due to their size.

Emotionally, I believe horses are capable of strong emotion and ties to others, but I also think elephants have a much greater capacity for this. They form extremely strong families and bonds, they seem to understand death and grieve, etc. By the same token an elephant that doesn’t get along with another takes much more serious management than a horse in the same situation.

Ultimately I think it’s about resources. I believe that elephants absolutely can work with people and be domesticated animals, but the space and energy and effort needed to adequately meet their needs (physical and emotional/mental) are much greater than with horses.

I feel uncomfortable with elephants in captivity, honestly, in a way I don’t about many other animals. I think it’s largely about their size and intelligence, the way they develop families, etc. But at the same time we have to look at our own practices, too. Many of the things we do with horses are not about their emotional well being and are instead about our convenience. It works better with horses because they are usually generous, forgiving, and adaptable, and if they are stressed or having trouble, not being the size of a house helps us to deal with that. It’s funny, though, I think many would criticize me a little for my horsekeeping, I’m an absentee owner and my horse gets minimal interference/care and lives outside all year with no blanket or grain. But he is in a nice group and happy as a clam and living in a way that actually minimizes his stress because it’s what he evolved/adapted for.

I think it’s very easy to be a hypocrite here, but for me it comes down to what the fundamental needs of each animal are, and whether we can adequately meet them in a way that’s fair to the animal. In many cases that’s much easier with horses than with elephants.

I will admit too that I feel far more uncomfortable with some animals in captivity than others. The great apes in captivity make me uncomfortable. Elephants. Killer and Beluga whales. Others don’t make me uncomfortable as long as they seem to have adequate space. Large wild cats. Small monkeys.
I think the differences have to do with size, intelligence, and emotional capacity.

In general, when it comes to performing tricks - that’s all just training. And for an animal (especially a smart one) in captivity, I’m not necessarily opposed because training requires them to think and learn, which may actually be a good thing for an animal in captivity, a form of enrichment basically.

[SuzieQNutter]

Elephants can have a relationship with a person the same as horses can.

It was said to get an elephant the same age as you as both life spans are about the same.

The major difference between elephants and horses is I have never heard of a gelded elephant.

Could you imagine if every idiot who owned a horse had to have a mare or a stallion?

I am not in the elephant world, but I did see Water for Elephants, which shows that elephants have to put up with cruelty and idiots as well and just like horses there are people who treat them with kindness, care and save them from other humans.

[cnigh]

One of my fondest memories is having Elephant rides inside the mall in Montreal, QC. His name was Rocky and he was very well cared for and loved. He loved kids and his job. I remember being able to run up and hug his leg. I was a regular - lol!

It’s sad to see how much the world has changes. I wonder if we will still have horses in the next 100 yrs.

[roseymare]

I think there are people out there who make the same emotional/family argument for horses. The have organized living groups in the wild as well.

[caffeinated]

That’s true. Once I was helping out when we had to go pick up a mare who had been reunited and turned out with one of her babies as an adult (they hadn’t seen each other in years). That was rough. They had become quite bonded, and taking the mare away actually brought me to tears, they were extremely upset about it. That was a hard moment and definitely made me think.

That said, they both were their normal selves by the next day.

I remember seeing a video of two elephants reunited at a sanctuary that hadn’t seen each other for decades, and the way they immediately knew one another and how frantic they were to see each other was incredible (yes, running the risk of anthropomorphizing but don’t much care!)

I guess this is the kind of thing best answered by people extremely familiar with elephants and working with them, exactly how much those bonds mean to them or effect them.

[kookicat]

I think part of it is down to the media pushing the bad stories so much. You very rarely hear stories where the elephants are happy and well cared for, but quite often hear the abuse stories.

[imaginique]

Years ago when the Equine Affaire was first in Columbus, it sometimes overlapped with the circus. I was walking past the Coliseum one day and saw elephants outside. I thought it would be cool to get close to the elephants and check them out. They were chained but no one was around so I thought I might even be able to touch one. As I got closer, I felt this terrible, horrible sadness radiating from those elephants. It was so bad I started to cry and had to walk on by without stopping. To this day, when I think of that or try to talk about it I cry. I’ve never felt that from a horse. I don’t know what that means, but I was delighted when I heard that Barnum and Bailey was retiring the elephants.

[Guilherme]

What’s the difference between elephants and horses? About 125 pounds.*

Both have a long history of domestication. Both have been used in transport, farm work, war, hunting, etc. Both have herd social structures. Both accept domestication and it’s association with humans readily. In short, where it really matters (i.e., domestication), there is no difference.

G.

*That’s the rough different in daily output of raw fertilizer.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=imaginique;8084797]
Years ago when the Equine Affaire was first in Columbus, it sometimes overlapped with the circus. I was walking past the Coliseum one day and saw elephants outside. I thought it would be cool to get close to the elephants and check them out. They were chained but no one was around so I thought I might even be able to touch one. As I got closer, I felt this terrible, horrible sadness radiating from those elephants. It was so bad I started to cry and had to walk on by without stopping. To this day, when I think of that or try to talk about it I cry. I’ve never felt that from a horse. I don’t know what that means, but I was delighted when I heard that Barnum and Bailey was retiring the elephants.[/QUOTE]

Well, have you ever seen an elephant in the unemployment line?

You think it costs a lot of money to feed a draft horse…

Animals with jobs are fed animals, and no, you can’t compare animals in Thailand with Ringling Brothers animals!

And consider the size of the animal: I have a hard time believing that you can bully elephants on a consistent basis. It does not take them any effort at all to squash a human being. The tragic stories you hear from time to time from zoos.

And guess what, not often.

How are people to appreciate the majesty that IS elephant if they can’t see them in person!

[Sandy_M]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but as far as ivory and poaching is concerned, isn’t that mostly wild African elephants, as opposed to (mostly) domesticated Indian elephants? I supposed it may have changed over the years, but I was under the impression that African elephants in general were considered totally undomesticated and undomesticateable compared with Indian elephants.

Any animal abuse is wrong. The problem is defining abuse. I don’t like circuses at all, and that is a very restricted life for such a large animal, even when well-treated. Then you have the “working” elephant in Asia that, I dunno, gives tourists rides and/or really works moving logs, etc. ? In that scenario, we talk about our horses “liking” their work, might not the same be true for (well-treated) working elephants?

[Bluey]

Look up “Hannibal march over the Alps”.

Our riding school used to keep a small circus animals over the winter.
The circus people were the ones taking care of them and were very, very picky about every little detail.
Those animals were their family, many didn’t have any other family but their animals.
One of those was an old lion that was kept in a box stall, another a small elephant that lived in our cross country field along with some other of their animals.

No one would have objected to any of the care and training those animals were given.

If a person wants to find a cause to go bat for, there are plenty of places animals are not cared for properly, but I doubt that it is because it is any one place that happens, like a circus or zoo and all circus and zoos need to be banned, but because wherever care is not adequate they need to do a better job.

That is the difference between animal rights extremists, that want use of animals banned, eventually, to fight circus and zoos is just one more step to that by them and animal welfare, that recognizes why we care for and use animals and work to insure we do that the best we can, in circus and zoos also.

Lets be careful which bandwagons we may choose to follow, because they may not be after all what we thought we were for.
As the OP found out, yes, why ban circus and zoos and elephants, but not other we do with animals, what we do with horses included?
That ought to tell the OP she may be going down the wrong path following the ban this and that, as animal rights extremist agendas push, if she thinks humans should have animals to care for and use, if she wants to keep her horses.

[Pipkin]

Elephants have been domesticated for thousands of years.

I don’t have a problem with ridden/working/domestic elephants, as long as they are treated with kindness and their basic physical and psychological needs are met. Freedom to move, same-species social interaction, correct nutrition… The same with horses! This is why I am opposed to stable-kept horses.

You see horses in some places treated in the same fashion as the elephants. Education is the key, and and poverty is often the culprit. If you cannot afford to feed your own children, no wonder your animal is emaciated… Sometimes (as with horses stalled 24/7) it is just pure ignorance, but more often than not, these people are doing as best they can.

[DJohn]

Elephants scare me. If you watch videos of them in the wild, they are similar to horses but less flighty (more confrontational).

Where a horse will run, an elephant will fight. And I agree that if they didn’t want to do something, they couldn’t be made to do so. There are hundreds (probably thousands) of accounts of Elephants attacking and killing people. Horses don’t have that same deadly streak unless they are seriously not right.

I have seen so many horses become attached to their owners, and take amazing care of little riders on the ground (and when being ridden). I would never trust an elephant in the same circumstance. There’s just something about them that is just so different from horses. I LOVE horses, and I feel safe around them. Elephants, no, there is no way I’d go near one.

[SuzieQNutter]

In the tsunami that killed a lot of people. The elephants with tourists on them took off. Their handlers could not control them. They took their passengers. With handlers following up the mountain and they all survived.

[Texarkana]

The folks at the Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee make it very clear to applicants that horse/large animal experience is NOT the same as elephant experience. (Ask me how i know :lol:)

I’ve gotten the impression in my limited dealings that elephants are a lot more intelligent than horses, no offense to anyone here or our animals. Between that and their sheer size, they seem to be much more negatively impacted when forced into less than ideal living and working conditions.

And in my eyes, an elephant working all day in the open in Asia transporting people, goods, etc., is quite different than an elephant in a circus doing 1-2 shows a day and spending the rest of the time confined. The former is also quite different than an elephant standing around in a too small pen at a zoo. Quality of life is rarely 100% black or white.

[BEARCAT]

If you went to a zoo and saw the larger herbivores (zebras, antelopes, deer, okapis) kept in a 12x12 space, you would probably be appalled and might complain to the management (or the press) about it. Yet some keep their horses in those conditions day in and day out.
(Just to put things in perspective…)

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=BEARCAT;8085364]
If you went to a zoo and saw the larger herbivores (zebras, antelopes, deer, okapis) kept in a 12x12 space, you would probably be appalled and might complain to the management (or the press) about it. Yet some keep their horses in those conditions day in and day out.
(Just to put things in perspective…)[/QUOTE]

true.
But horses should get exercise aside from being put up all day (but to compare horses and antelope, I suppose the fact that horses do stand around most of their turnout time also illustrates our grand misconception of their needs. I have seen barn layouts with gates and different feeder stations to maximize range of movement during turnout)

In fact, since the inception of zoos in the 19th century as menagerie, basically a museum with animals, we have learned more about their needs and behavior. Zoo exhibitions now reflect that!

It is a difference if you turn out horses or zebras (still quite destructive) or elephants. I would love to see how the Tennessee sanctuary has changed over the 15-20 years of operation! (and they, too have a solid structure to put the animals up!)

BTW, I have read - a long time ago - that the chain for the circus elephant is a measure of comfort. I think it is safe to assume that most chains that aren’t logging chains won’t hold up to the strength of a determined elephant.

Ringling Brothers support a large elephant breeding operation. I wonder what will happen to the animals, now that there will be no more need for them.