What is the purpose of "Big Lick" Walking Horses?

[Stacie]

Back in the mid 80’s we went to look at some TWH’s. They had a famous stallion on the property who was known for his ability to throw walkers. The stallion was sickle hocked and had such an unstable behind that his hocks wrung while standing still. I’m not kidding. It was the most unnatural thing I had ever seen. For at least this line of walkers, they couldn’t have trotted if they wanted to. The legs were too deformed to do it.

I thought I should add that I like gaited horses. I’m especially fond of foxtrotters and Kentucky Mountain horses. Although, I’m sad that they bred so much walker blood into the foxtrotters. Hard to find one with a genuine foxtrot.

[RPM]

[QUOTE=Chachie;8909992]
I’m not asking about how they produce the gait. I’m not trying to start a thread about soring. I know how they produce it and the torture that goes along with it.
I’m trying to understand why they want that Big Lick stride…is there a historical purpose for it or is it something that is done because it’s the trend?
Not trying to argue…just trying to understand it.
It looks overly exaggerated and not useful, but that my opinion.
So please teach me about the REASON for the Big Lick gaits and why is it called Big Lick?[/QUOTE]

The purpose of Big Lick horses is competition among a thankfully very small group of TWH owners, breeders, and exhibitors mostly in in the middle Tennessee area. They want that Big Lick stride because it has become, for them, a tradition in itself. Back in the '40s Midnight Sun had a gait that other trainers wanted their own horses to emulate. If the horses could not do it naturally, or by training, they were forced into a grotesque mockery of it with pads, chains, and other “devices.” It is like people wanting to do dressage but not having a horse with natural ability or good training (and not having it themselves), so they invest in flash straps, Rollkur, saddles with deep seats and thigh and knee blocks to force their legs into a “correct” position. Except that they are doing that of their own free will and it isn’t [usually] painful. The Big Lick trainers are doing it to their horses and it is very painful and crippling.

And, like another poster has said here, it is like the GSD slant-back, bent leg stance and gait.

There is no legitimate purpose for the Big Lick gait. It did not exist with I was a child (and I was born after Midnight Sun).

I wish Merry Go Boy had been as popular. He was an equally good horse but for some reason Midnight Sun was the one people focused on and tried to mimic.

ETA: I just saw an online article that says Talk of the Town, a son of Midnight Sun, was the horse with the exaggerated gait that came to be copied as “Big Lick.” Since Talk of the Town was a gelding, people could not breed from him for the gait, so I guess they had to try it artificially.

[ladyj79]

Um ^^^ I don’t think deep seated dressage saddles or knee rolls are comparable to chains on legs.

Good lord RPM do you really believe that? Are you one who thinks riding horses at all is inherently cruel?

Some of you really just can’t help yourselves, can you?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;8911326]
Um ^^^ I don’t think deep seated dressage saddles or knee rolls are comparable to chains on legs.

Good lord RPM do you really believe that? Are you one who thinks riding horses at all is inherently cruel?

Some of you really just can’t help yourselves, can you?[/QUOTE]

Well, those of us that grew up with dressage horses think dressage is perfectly fine and natural.
Mind you, those gaited horses, Big Lick or little lick type other similar ones, to me, coming from the English riding world, were also very off-putting, when I first saw some three and five gaited classes, at the National in Madison Square Garden, the best of such horses there.
Then, those gaited riders thought we were abusing our horses by jumping them so high and wildly, so dangerous, surely some horse or rider would crash and was going to get killed any minute.

Sit with a handful of western riders, that have never seen a dressage horse performance, while we were watching the olympics and they will be very critical of “those uptight, so nervous and jumpy horses, dancing around half crippled looking, the riders holding them together with a death grip”.

It truly is in what we are used to seeing and that is ok, as long as it is not abusive, that of course is not acceptable in any discipline.

[RPM]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;8911326]
Um ^^^ I don’t think deep seated dressage saddles or knee rolls are comparable to chains on legs.

Good lord RPM do you really believe that? Are you one who thinks riding horses at all is inherently cruel?

Some of you really just can’t help yourselves, can you?[/QUOTE]

Um, did you even bother to READ my post? I compared SOME dressage saddles only because they force the rider into a certain position when the rider either cannot get it on their own or doesn’t have time to work on it. These dressage saddles are a fairly recent phenomenon; older dressage saddles were not made like these. I also said they do NOT cause pain. Do you not know how to read for content and comprehension?

Or are you just one of those COTHers who read, totally miss the meaning and point, draw your own wild conclusions, and then jump to attack without even considering whether or not you understood or what the poster meant?

It is people like you who make me not want to bother. I don’t know whether you honestly can’t help yourself, or if you just like to carp.

Good grief.

[Onetrickpuppy]

[QUOTE=x;8910726]
This video really shows the evolution from the early years to the seventies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZH3IbosI8[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the video. It really is discouraging to see how the gait the breed is famous for has morphed into a painful experience for the horse.
I just hope pressure to stop soring and other painful practices, forces owners and trainers to back off putting the animal through all that.

[Rackonteur]

[QUOTE=Onetrickpuppy;8911444]
Thanks for the video. It really is discouraging to see how the gait the breed is famous for has morphed into a painful experience for the horse.
I just hope pressure to stop soring and other painful practices, forces owners and trainers to back off putting the animal through all that.[/QUOTE]

After more than 20 years the pressure hasn’t forced them to back off yet.

The gait itself hasn’t morphed; it’s only the Big Lick people who have changed it for their horses. Other Tennessee Walking Horse people breed for and train and support the good old classic running walk.

Then there are other TWH people who don’t know the difference between a running walk, a rack, an amble, a stepping pace, and even a pace, but they’re still supporting a natural gait, barefoot or flat shod, and the health and well-being of their horses.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8911349]
Well, those of us that grew up with dressage horses think dressage is perfectly fine and natural.
Mind you, those gaited horses, Big Lick or little lick type other similar ones, to me, coming from the English riding world, were also very off-putting, when I first saw some three and five gaited classes, at the National in Madison Square Garden, the best of such horses there.
Then, those gaited riders thought we were abusing our horses by jumping them so high and wildly, so dangerous, surely some horse or rider would crash and was going to get killed any minute.

Sit with a handful of western riders, that have never seen a dressage horse performance, while we were watching the olympics and they will be very critical of “those uptight, so nervous and jumpy horses, dancing around half crippled looking, the riders holding them together with a death grip”.

It truly is in what we are used to seeing and that is ok, as long as it is not abusive, that of course is not acceptable in any discipline.[/QUOTE]

Bluey, you are quoting my post but I’m not sure why given your response

My point is it is ridiculous to declare a fluffy saddle as cruel and abusive.

Seriously RPM I read your post. If that’s not what you meant, please explain. As I tell my students in comp classes, it isn’t always the fault of the reader: sometimes writing is not clear or conveys ideas you didn’t intend. What did you intend to say when you brought dressage saddles with deep seats and knee rolls into the discussion?

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=x;8910726]
This video really shows the evolution from the early years to the seventies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZH3IbosI8[/QUOTE]
Interesting. You can see a big shift in gait in the 1955-56 World Grand Champion, Go Boy’s Shadow. The 51-53 horse, Talk of the Town definitely had a different looking gait, but it still looked natural. Go Boy’s Shadow looks padded. He’s got the exaggerated movement and his canter is the beginning realm of what we see today. The previous horses canters looked fine. Merry Maid even looked like a dressage horse that was going to be doing tempis. Collected, elevated, but no flinging legs…

It’s just so sad to see these poor horses move so painfully…and to hear their owners/trainers/fans defend it. :mad:

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=ladyj79;8911541]
Bluey, you are quoting my post but I’m not sure why given your response

My point is it is ridiculous to declare a fluffy saddle as cruel and abusive.

Seriously RPM I read your post. If that’s not what you meant, please explain. As I tell my students in comp classes, it isn’t always the fault of the reader: sometimes writing is not clear or conveys ideas you didn’t intend. What did you intend to say when you brought dressage saddles with deep seats and knee rolls into the discussion?[/QUOTE]

My point was that an educated eye to the discipline being considered for any kind of criticism of how purposeful it may be is necessary.

We are reflecting the limits of our knowledge when we try to apply our standards to others that do other than we do and try to measure them by our standards, thus my examples.

[ladyj79]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8911647]
My point was that an educated eye to the discipline being considered for any kind of criticism of how purposeful it may be is necessary.

We are reflecting the limits of our knowledge when we try to apply our standards to others that do other than we do and try to measure them by our standards, thus my examples.[/QUOTE]

But why are you quoting my post when I’m not judging any disciplines? Again, i am merely noting that comparing deep seated saddles to leg chains makes no sense. This is not a commentary on any discipline, but a comment on a seemingly irrational argument on the part of RPM.

So, again, I’m not sure where quoting my post came into your argument at all. Can you try to clarify again? Because I don’t really understand your post…Again.

[PushersBlue]

Had a great grandson of Midnight Sun by way of Sun’s Delight. That gelding had Midnight Sun on his papers 3 times. Even when 20+ and arthritic, he could naturally drop it low and pull a lovely flat show walk just for his own sense of pride and looked like, to put it as one man said to me once, “Like he could knock you down and take your milk money”, aka big-bodied.

I’ve heard there are foundation folks looking to breed back and there are some studs out there that have the old blood. I hope they do. Midnight Sun was everything a Walker should be…

[jdobbs64]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8911349]
Well, those of us that grew up with dressage horses think dressage is perfectly fine and natural.
Mind you, those gaited horses, Big Lick or little lick type other similar ones, to me, coming from the English riding world, were also very off-putting, when I first saw some three and five gaited classes, at the National in Madison Square Garden, the best of such horses there.
Then, those gaited riders thought we were abusing our horses by jumping them so high and wildly, so dangerous, surely some horse or rider would crash and was going to get killed any minute.

It truly is in what we are used to seeing and that is ok, as long as it is not abusive, that of course is not acceptable in any discipline.[/QUOTE]
How much mustard and turpentine before it’s abusive? Just a touch in the pocket is ok, maybe?

[ellebeaux]

[QUOTE=x;8910726]
This video really shows the evolution from the early years to the seventies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZH3IbosI8[/QUOTE]

Wow, except for that set tail, Strolling Jim is gorgeous.

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=jdobbs64;8912531]
How much mustard and turpentine before it’s abusive? Just a touch in the pocket is ok, maybe?[/QUOTE]

How much Perfect Prep or magnesium before it becomes abusive? Or is not abusive because they just keel over and die?

[SusanO]

I hate to tell you - it was that bad 50 years ago. The only difference is that I think ( and I hope) that the group of people that are involved with this cruelty is shrinking. Looking back the children and grandchildren of the people that were prominent in my town switched to other disciplines or got out of horses. And these were delightful people - the wife-swapping, child molesting, alcoholic “trainers” that participated have mostly died off. Good riddance. And this is first hand knowledge - not something I read on the internet.

And no - the extremes you see in the other disciplines comes no where near the cruelty that these horses endure. When you see the weeping sores from mustard oil, horses foundered so badly that somebody has to stand behind them with a whip to get them to move being ridden because …if you founder them a little then they put their weight on their hind legs. I saw all this as a child and spoke up. Nobody much listened.

Hopefully public opinion has changed and there is a big movement by a lot of TWH owners to get away from this cruelty and enjoy their horses naturally. I am hoping eventually it will be so socially unacceptable to go to or participate in these shows that public opinion will drive these people out of business.

[jdobbs64]

[QUOTE=red mares;8912898]
How much Perfect Prep or magnesium before it becomes abusive? Or is not abusive because they just keel over and die?[/QUOTE]

Exactly my point. Any is too much.

[jdobbs64]

Susan it is shrinking. Thankfully.

[Malda]

[QUOTE=jdobbs64;8913096]
Susan it is shrinking. Thankfully.[/QUOTE]

That’s good to hear. Unfortunately, it’s going to be a long time before the breed recovers because running walk has been bred out in favor of the pace. So many owners don’t even know what a running walk is anymore.

[Alterrain]

Wow! that Midnight Sun is GORGEOUS. This was a great thread for me to read, I’ve never seen a TWH other than the horrific torture videos going around, I had no idea they were originally so graceful. I’d love to ride one some day.