What is this horse worth?

[AltersAreUs]

@CanteringCarrot

@Justice_for_Horses

Pretty good? Its very good.

I couldn’t say what I would pay for this horse without seeing it, riding it, and checking out its soundness.

While I’ve never owned or considered a Qh to buy I certainly wouldn’t rule one out if it had the quality I was wanting. I dont think many others would either.

The size though would give it a pass for me and many others .

I agree that it’s very good. Sorry that “pretty good” wasn’t good enough just wanted to convey that it’s certainly noteworthy!

Not to be Debby Downer but these aren’t 7.5s and 8s at a recognized show. These are schooling show scores and, in my experience, you rarely see any tests beyond 2nd level at 90% of the schooling shows and when you do, they tend to score well as long as they aren’t dumpster fires. There is the unfortunate habit of schooling shows scoring high.

So maybe these are 7.5/8 changes but at a recognized show, that’s a change with jump, balance, straightness, no lateness anywhere, and looks darn near effortless. On a horse who doesn’t have the strength yet carry through the lateral trot work, that’s pretty darn unlikely.

[J-Lu]

@Turntable

My experience is that cutting/ reining bred QHs can generally rock back, sit down and stay there while moving their weight around quite well naturally.

They sure can! The trainer out of our barn has done cow clinics which include flag work. Watching a talented cow horse work the flag is A-MAZ-ING. They can sit their butts down, turn, gallop 4 strides, sliding stop, turn, etc to follow the flag. Even some naive horses figure out the sitting and turning quickly because they’ve got that cow/ranch/cutting/reining in there. It’s humbling to participate because my horse and I absolutely suck at flag work but it is so much fun.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Not to sidetrack too much but straightness is the name of the game with my lusi. They are wiggle worms and getting honest slow rhythm with true straightness is a challenge but so rewarding for building cadence. I got great advice at a clinic this year (with the insanely talented Miguel Ralao) to stop working on half pass etc. and focus on straightness / SI only. He goes sideways for days but I need full shoulder control. Those walk/canter/walks on inside track are miracles. Doing it this way, when I went to apply the HP at a show, it was a 7.5 (great improvement for his trot work).

Also I don’t think Lusitanos are really off breeds for dressage at this point .

[IPEsq]

I totally believe a well bred QH could be doing clean changes and 1/4 pirouettes at this age. Have y’all never watched a young reiner or cutter go to work?

[chestnutmarebeware]

Sorry but that really did sound snarky.

[J-Lu]

As a 5 year old? Doing correctly 1/4 pirouettes at 5? Frankly, no. Not unless they were started at 2 and lame before 10. IME, they can turn with a flag on adrenaline but aren’t anywhere near pirouettes at that age. They are on adrenaline.

[IPEsq]

@J-Lu

As a 5 year old? Doing correctly 1/4 pirouettes at 5? Frankly, no. Not unless they were started at 2 and lame before 10. IME, they can turn with a flag on adrenaline but aren’t anywhere near pirouettes at that age. They are on adrenaline.

This stallion was 3 winning the futurity championship (2018 colt, video from 2021). There are times where his canter gets a little 4 beat in the slow circles but it was the first video that popped up on my YouTube search. Clean changes. Basically all of them are going at 2. And any horse that can do the spins or really cut a cow and can really go and then really stop has the mechanics in place for a pirouette. These horses can really sit. Should they all be doing it so young? I dunno, not getting into that debate. But they have more aptitude for some of these movements than your immature baby warmblood.

Ten Thirty & Casey Deary WIN NRHA Futurity (2021)

[J-Lu]

Yep, they are started and going at 2 as you say. The horse does not have the mechanics of a pirouette but the mechanics of spinning the weight around on hind leg. Hmmm, which is easier? There is a reason why pirouettes don’t show up until fourth level dressage. Sure, no good warmblood owner does this with their horse at any age if they expect them to be sound after the work of fourth level training. Are you comparing a dressage pirouette to spinning on the hind leg?

Reining doesn’t come close to dressage in terms of use of the body to perform a movement. Seriously?

[hut-ho78]

@sorrelfilly721 maybe this article will help you get a monetary value for your horse. It discusses the trend towards smaller dressage horses by many amateurs. I read it when it was originally published and found it again here. https://yourdressage.org/2019/03/28/the-downsized-dressage-horse/

[Turntable]

Likely the canter is only four-beat due to the training.

I personally think Valegro has the best hind end of any modern dressage star by a long mile. I see very few sporthorses with that kind of supple torque-y low-gearing in the hind end. I see it in reining bred QHs all the time. My friend who has cutting/ reining bred horses, some of them have astonishing hind ends- cat like, powerful, low hocks and just floaty with all joints well articulated. Now obviously I would not buy one for an FEI dressage horse but it’s not because they lack sit or push from behind. Also those horses are extremely biddable, unlike most baby warmbloods!

[CanteringCarrot]

Deleted my post because the post below mine explains it better.

[BigMama1]

The reiner’s 4 beat canter does not bode well to me, nor does the lack of reach under with the hind legs.

Comparing this to dressage is apples to oranges. Yes the horse can do a flying change, but that doesn’t mean it is doing Third Level. We’d have to see if it could demonstrate uphill balance, engagement and collection while performing a flying change and all the other required movements. I don’t see any ability to lift the front end for a 1/4 pirouette shown in this video, so it’s impossible to say whether this 3 year old could do it.

Dressage is progressive for a reason. You don’t just train some of the harder tricks from Fourth Level without installing the basic requirements of First, Second and Third. Not just for getting good scores, but for developing the horse correctly and keeping it sound.

The question of should a 3 year old horse be asked to do the work shown in the reining video should not be ignored; for most horse people the answer is clearly no. Not if you care about the long term health of the horse.

[Bluey]

Just for a bit of fun:

[Feathered_Feet]

@BigMama1

Comparing this to dressage is apples to oranges. Yes the horse can do a flying change, but that doesn’t mean it is doing Third Level. We’d have to see if it could demonstrate uphill balance, engagement and collection while performing a flying change and all the other required movements.

Thank you! A dressage flying change is not just changing leads back to front - it’s also demonstrating and maintaining the engagement, impulsion, suppleness, and relaxation appropriate for third level before, during, and after the change. Just because your horse gets from one lead to the other without a train wreck doesn’t mean it performed a satisfactory (which is a 6) third level change.

Why do you (general) think we wait to long so teach changes in dressage? It’s because all the afore-mentioned engagement, suppleness, etc. has to also be there. Otherwise we would teach them at first level.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Feathered_Feet

@BigMama1

Comparing this to dressage is apples to oranges. Yes the horse can do a flying change, but that doesn’t mean it is doing Third Level. We’d have to see if it could demonstrate uphill balance, engagement and collection while performing a flying change and all the other required movements.

Thank you! A dressage flying change is not just changing leads back to front - it’s also demonstrating and maintaining the engagement, impulsion, suppleness, and relaxation appropriate for third level before, during, and after the change. Just because your horse gets from one lead to the other without a train wreck doesn’t mean it performed a satisfactory (which is a 6) third level change.

Why do you (general) think we wait to long to teach changes in dressage? It’s because all the afore-mentioned engagement, suppleness, etc. has to also be there. Otherwise we would teach them at first level.

Some people/trainers/professionals actually train changes quite early, or let the horse offer a change. There are a few schools of thought on the matter. Not all successful trainers wait so long to teach changes. It’s also entirely possible to over prepare and over think changes…not that I would know anything about that

I mean, I do understand and generally agree with what you’re saying, but I have heard of people training them quite early and it still working out well.

[Feathered_Feet]

Absolutely! I should probably have said “show them at first level” because obviously the training behind the scenes is not always linear up the levels (and you should be schooling 1 or 2 levels above what you are showing, so it’s very likely someone is schooling third while showing first). And certainly if a horse offered a decent change early, I don’t know anyone who would punish or discourage it. But the point being that, in dressage, a change is not simply a change - it is also the balance, suppleness, and rideability before, during, and after.

But yes, you don’t want a horse that believes that counter canter is the only way and thus never sees the need to change

[happilyretired]

@the_sandiest_shoes

straightness is the name of the game with my lusi. They are wiggle worms and getting honest slow rhythm with true straightness is a challenge but so rewarding for building cadence.

Totally agree!! And I also agree that Lusitanos are becoming more popular in dressage for many good reasons. I’m a convert to the breed!!

[Jealoushe]

Not to start a war but most of those reining or pleasure horses are done by 9 years old also. 9 is old for the western world to still be out competing.

[Mardi1]

Reining, and western pleasure, ride/train their horses to go in a down hill position. Throughout equestrian history - whether the horse was used in war, agriculture, transportation, competition - no other disciplines do that. The horse isn’t built that way.

Does any one know what the benefit is of training them to go down hill ? (sincere question)

[CanteringCarrot]

But they are sort of are built downhill?