Since the last thread went off track, I took the liberty of
starting this one.
What I am looking for at intro level is a horse that is moving
actively forward in a relaxed manner with calm acceptance of
the aids. The gaits should be pure - they don’t need to be
extravagant.
I don’t want to see a horse going around with his head in the air-
clearly unhappy with any kind of connection. Nor do I want to see
them trucking along with their chin on their chests. Ideally, there
should be some flexion at the poll - the closer they are to a training
level connection the better.
I want to see the horse actively participating - trotting when asked.
I would like to see the rider planning ahead - not counter bending in
the corners or turning at the last minute.
Straight lines should be straight - on diagonals, the horse should be
starting the diagonal by the letter and ending the diagonal (straight on
the long side) by the ending letter. The free walk should not meander
along the diagonal.
On the turn up the center line, the rider should be looking up for the
judge at the long side and planning to ‘hit’ the center line around ‘d’
It is much easier to turn early and leg yield to the center line than
overshoot and steer back.
Before the entry - while not judged - the rider should pass back and
forth by the judges booth in both directions so the horse sees it out
of both eyes. Tell the scribe your number - ie -"good morning, I am
number so and so’. Please don’t ‘hide out’ by A and make us wonder
what you number is.
For your entry - turn inside of A not outside - see above re leg yielding
rather than steering.
Please don’t have conversations with your reader. Know your test in
case you can’t hear them or they make a mistake.
Smile
I want you to do well and enjoy the showing experience.
Dot
I have a question regarding flexion in general. (not necessarily intro)
A judge commented in my test there should be flexion even on the long side (let say H to K)… horse should look slightly to the inside. So I started to ride like that.
Then I went to a clinic, the clinician said why are you always flexing the horse to the inside? He wants me to flex the horse only when I am asking for something. When the horse is on the straight, he should be completely straight from head to tail. Otherwise, I am to do nothing. I told him how I was judged, he said the judges don’t know what they are doing.
I have asked many people about this and nobody has the straight answer.
Straight is straight from my understand. What your describing sounds like shoulder fore to me. This is what my first trainer wanted, yet this trainer wants more straight and my scores are MUCH MUCH better now. I could be wrong because I am a newbie, but this is my understanding. If you are going down the long side he should be straight, you start the inside flex somewhat to prepare for the corners or to change bend on the diaganols.
It is my understanding that when the horse is flexed in on the long side, it is flexed to the degree that the rider can barely see the eyelashes on the inside. The idea is that the horse is ever so subtly moving from the inside leg to the outside rein - in other words traveling straight or in the tiniest shoulder-fore. This serves to straighten the horse.
Watch horses go down the long side, esp. lower level horses. If you stand exactly at the end of the line you can see that many (most?) horses if given their choice will put their shoulders slightly to the rail and their haunches slightly inside, moreso in one direction. If you look at the legs, you will often see that the front legs are ever-so-slightly more on the rail than the hind legs. Horses do this because it is easier than stepping straight under their body with the hind legs and carrying…even at intro level.
If you flex the horse ever so slightly at the poll - NOT the base of the neck, to the inside while keeping the base of the neck straight, the only way you can see the inside eyelid is if the shoulders of the horse are either dead straight in front of the hind legs or, and this is especially true of horses who have a wider pelvis than shoulders, the inside front leg is tracking exactly in front of the inside hind leg. This means that the inside hind leg is truly carrying and the horse is truly straight, and it can stop horses from developing a habit of going wide-behind. And being slightly flexed in the poll tends to keep the jaw loose. If you watch the topline of a horse who is crooked and then straightens out how I describe above, you’ll see an obvious improvement - at least for a few steps - in the way the horse goes because he’s balanced. if you are riding, you feel an obvious difference in how the horse goes.
Where it so frequently goes awry is when the neck bends and the rider thinks they are actually flexing at the poll. Then the shoulder pops to the rail and the horse is really crooked. Also, some horses are really hard to flex in just the poll while keeping the shoulders straight (even well trained horses), which is why counterflexion can be as important as flexion in certain circumstances to keep a horse truly straight.
If you watch people go in an arena, you can see what I’m talking about.
My two cents…
J.
I guess my question to you would be ‘define straight from head to
tail’. A horse is generally more narrow in the front than in the back.
As dressage riders, our definition of straight on the longside means
that the inside fore and inside hind are in alignment. I do like to see
a slight flexion inside at the poll-not ‘neck bend’. More a softening
of the jaw than anything else, just so that you can easily ask for
either bend in the corners, increased bend for a circle, or si.
Your scores may have improved because in your straightening, you
have closed the outside shoulder and actually improved the connection
to the outside rein and balance.
Dot
j-lu
You must have posted at the same time as me. Your explanation
is better than mine.
Dot
I’m unfortunately long-winded so I tend to cover alot of bases… :winkgrin::lol:
It is impossible for a horse to be completely straight, and the nuchal ligament is alway flipped r or l (inside or outside). So the rider should have a slight flexion inside (ie see the outline of the inside eyelashes), this is basic technique. For the green(er) horse the horse is straight when inside hind and inside fore are aligned, for the trained horse the outside fore/hand are aligned (because there is more lateral flexability). (For great pix of those things look at (srs) Maringers Horses are Made to be HOrses).
At intro I am glad if the horse the sustains a steady tempo, pure gaits, and does basically formed circles (correct bending originating in the leg). Since the (training level) horse only has ‘accept the bit’ (rather than be on the bit) the flexion can/should be minimal.
I AM talking flexion, not neck bend, not bend, not even shoulder fore. I am not talking lateral. I am also not debating the concept of flexion. I want to know why judges always want to see flexion to the INSIDE on the long side. I can dig up the test, but the judge said exactly, if not to the effect of, horse should always look to the inside slightly on the long side. She did not make any reference to the position of the shoulder or the rest of the horse.
What the clinician wanted me to understand, flexion no matter how slight you ask for it, you are asking for something… and there is nothing you ever ask a horse to do ALL the time as the ultimate goal is straightness and self carriage. When the horse is not correct, you correct him (e.g.momentary flexion to the inside OR outside depending on what the horse needs)… if he is correct, then you do everything in your power to maintain a state of relaxation, balance and no disturbance… until next time I need to ask something again. Therefor the judge should be seeing small flexion as an adjustment throughout the test in either direction OR in a specific direction in preparation for a movement.
To make his point, he put me on this super sensitive but well trained horse who gets explosive if I am not purposeful in my aid… forget inside leg to outside rein, I threw that away in 10 seconds… I chose to live.
I still do not buy slight flexion to the inside is sort of a natural position. Perhaps I am not understanding correctly. Because on the same token, flexing to the outside should produce the same result… since there is no ‘inside’/‘outside’ when going straight… let say there is no fences or markers, you are just riding an unmarked a 100 X 200 ring… why favour inside but sure mark me down for flexing to the outside.
However, I buy that, at my kind of level of riding, flexion to the inside produces a more polished picture of connection, and prolong state of preparation, helps compensate for the lack of precision in my aids.
Sorry! OK, so you are talking flexion…everything I posted about still applies. The judge gave you a concise, quick statement. Flexion enhances the connection from the inside leg to the outside rein and can serve to straighten/balance a horse and maintain/develop suppleness. THAT’s what the judge is looking for in a dressage test as you go movement to movement, and likely as a way of going to build strength, not maintain.
In a dressage arena, if you are on the rail, you are ONLY turning/circling to the inside, never the outside and through the rail, so inside flexion sets the horse up by keeping the inside leg active and stepping under. Very few tests have lots of room for maintaining a state of not doing much- there’s always SOMETHING coming up. Centerline is perhaps the only line that doesn’t have overt “handedness” unless you are in canter. You are not in a natural situation in the dressage arena - you are keeping your horse on his most balanced but relaxed toes and always prepared for the next movement. At home, I usually do inside to outside to inside flexion on straight lines to improve balance because you’re right, on a straight line it doesn’t matter.
But anyway, that is this judge’s philosophy. Do you ever get your rides videotapes? That might shed light on what the judge is getting at.
I hear what the clinician is saying, and that is the clinician’s philosophy. Some will agree, some won’t. The more you understand horse movement, the more you’ll understand where the different philosophies are coming from and why you ride the way that you choose to ride. (you in the general sense…not YOU).
Different horses are trained in different ways and so are comfortable with different approaches. If this hot horse was trained without an inside-leg-to-ouside-rein approach, well, he isn’t going to undertand that kind of riding. Do what you must to avoid physical harm. 
[QUOTE=ideayoda;3162965]
At intro I am glad if the horse the sustains a steady tempo, pure gaits, and does basically formed circles (correct bending originating in the leg). Since the (training level) horse only has ‘accept the bit’ (rather than be on the bit) the flexion can/should be minimal.[/QUOTE]
I wish more judges judged the rides like this. I have a student, a kid, only 16 and she is only doing Intro. She is getting the concepts down, and is a ready student, but having the horse at a training level contact is not in her abilities so far. I had her showing last summer twice, and her contact was unsteady but forgiving to the horse. She had poor scores the judges wanted contact and the horse in a training level demeanor/frame. Three judges noted her inability to have the horse’s face on the vertical, and wanted more engagement.
Engagement>??? WTF? At Intro, you have got to be kidding me I said to her. Well, suffice to say we have been working on this but her contact and the horse are still at odds with being on the bit all the time. Riding a mere year and a half once a week with me is hard to get a rider in training level. So do you let the student show again? Hard one for me to let her go and have the horse’s head out in front of him on a moderate long rein going in a happy regular gait then get bad scores for the ride. It is a perfectly fine Intro level ride IMHO.
This also has me wondering why First level riders all seem to be getting axed for not riding in Second level collection too. But, we won’t go there. :):):):):):):)
" inability to have the horse’s face on the vertical," The only place at which the horse (on the bit) is allowed to be at the vertical (new rule about ten years ago, and not a particularly good change imho) is at piaffe. Training level horses are only required to accept the bit, vs be on the bit per se. The directives say that ’ the horse should stay, in general, slightly ifv. Why? Because it reveals that the hh have produced proper folding of the hindlegs, freer shoulders, higher moving forelegs, horse which lifts arcs horse out to the bit.
[QUOTE=ideayoda;3163503]
" inability to have the horse’s face on the vertical," The only place at which the horse (on the bit) is allowed to be at the vertical (new rule about ten years ago, and not a particularly good change imho) is at piaffe. Training level horses are only required to accept the bit, vs be on the bit per se. The directives say that ’ the horse should stay, in general, slightly ifv. Why? Because it reveals that the hh have produced proper folding of the hindlegs, freer shoulders, higher moving forelegs, horse which lifts arcs horse out to the bit.[/QUOTE]
So what does one do in a situation like petitefilly is describing?
Eileen
[QUOTE=dotneko;3162710]
What I am looking for at intro level is a horse that is moving actively forward in a relaxed manner with calm acceptance of
the aids…
I want to see the horse actively participating - trotting when asked.[/QUOTE]
I’m not even looking for as much as you do - yours sounds more like a training level “purpose”. For me just steady and inside of arena will do 
Steady tempo,
Steady rhythm
Steady contact
Steady rider’s hands
Steady rider’s legs
Steady frame
Steady gait
All of that will get a 7.
Counter flexing in the corners is one the mistakes that really bothers me. Most people come down the C-line counter flexed and overshooting it by 3 feet. Easy fix for that is when you are at F or K - look at the judge and that will help you to turn right on the C=line and not overshoot it.
Straight lines and right on the letters are bonus that will score an 8 at Intro for me.
Walk is the most important gait of the Intro level for me and I do expect to see a clear, marching, straight walk. Intro Level horse has to have a solid walk!
Engagement comes only at 2nd level as well as bending - if we really want to be correct per USDF “L” training (as well as we were not allowed to use “on the bit” “above the bit” “on the forehand” wording below 1st level).So judges shouldn’t comment on bending or engagement on Intro. That was clearly communicated to us by our instructors. However, remembering that USDF “L” program was started only 15 years ago, there are many judges who didn’t go thru it and who didn’t audit it, so there are still some vocabulary discrepancies between some judges.
As for inside flexion even at the straight lines - it’s also Lisa Wilcox who says that one should ride with slight shoulder-for all the time - that helps to keep horse straight - majority of horses are naturally travel hunches in. So may be your judge suggested to ride with some minor flexion to compensate for your particular current issue? May be when you do that, you actually look “straight”? Yet, if you over-flex - you are crooked and clinitian caught you doing that?
Steady rhythm goes without saying, but just steady tempo is not
necessarily a 7 - I have seen quite a few western pleasure jogs
in my ring, steady yes, but not 7 worthy. I look for activity.
Remember this is not just ‘welcome to showing’, it is on the way
to being able to canter at training level.
You can also have a completely inverted horse going around - steady
contact but no acceptance of the aids. I think that the trot work
has to be close to training level ability. Remember the old saying
that you should be working a level above at home. I want to see
work in my ring that gives me confidence that these riders could
safely canter at home - not just bare control in ring at trot. NOt
even test worthy canter, just if the horse pops into canter I don;t
want to fear for their safety.
Typically, my 70% rides are more training level trot work
60%- some lack of preparation for turns, maybe missing a cl, occassional
excursions of connection
50% - inverted much of the time
40% inverted and not even close to working trot
I really really hate being able to count teeth on the center line.
Now these are huge generalizations. Just at training 4, we ask is the
horse ready for first, at intro we can ask is the horse ready for training.
Of course you can comment on bending at intro - as in correct bending
onto the center line would improve your turning ability.
Petitefilly - what was the score for rider? I am thinking mid 50’s.
Dot
Engagement>??? WTF? At Intro, you have got to be kidding me I said to her. Well, suffice to say we have been working on this but her contact and the horse are still at odds with being on the bit all the time. Riding a mere year and a half once a week with me is hard to get a rider in training level. So do you let the student show again? Hard one for me to let her go and have the horse’s head out in front of him on a moderate long rein going in a happy regular gait then get bad scores for the ride. It is a perfectly fine Intro level ride IMHO.
I have a similar situation…well sort of…My daughter who is almost 15 has been showing her pony at intro for close to 6 months now. The whole connection, steady contact, on the vertical [as in training/first level frame] is inconceivable right now. Our main goal and why she is still at intro is steady tempo, soft & reaching towards the bit without racing, bracing or running around inverted. We often receive recommendations of working towards a steady contact/accepting the bit which are well deserved. The most common comment (also agree totally) is to work towards relaxation in conjunction with acceptance of the bit and a quiet steady tempo albeit still maintaining forward. The exception I take has been the comments on her tests criticizing lack of bend, counterbending etc though I will admit much of the reason for that has been, I assume, to encourage my child to try to develop a steady connection to the outside rein. It’s tough to separate the two especially with this particular pony. The “problem” as I see it and what I have to keep reminding her is it’s too easy and incorrect to make the translation of such comments into suggestions “to work on the face” and hold the horse/pony in a frame when in essence and particularly with this pony it’s the opposite that should be the focus. Without control of the body, slowing and regulating tempo and developing a steady rhythm the acceptance of the bit and hint of true connection will continue to be elusive. That in and of itself is tough to teach a rider especially when comments written repeatedly point to the lack of connection over and over. Though correct, I don’t think it always sends the right message but then again that is our job as instructor/trainer to translate and insure that the proper development and focus is maintained in our training is it not?
I always ask my child if she wants to enter the next show and tell her what is still missing and what she needs to make as her goal - independent of any scores. I prepare her for what she will face in terms of what is still lacking. So far she still wants to show and give it a try. She gets discouraged but she sees me go out there time after time with meanie greenies and developing horses and realizes it’s a process and a work in progress.
thank you
I’m glad a really worthwhile thread got resurrected.
[one can hope that the other will not have been hijacked in vain]
My girl plans on reading this in her spare time.
The directives for intro says: ‘to introduce the rider to the concepts of dressage (aka training’. Basic to those is pure gaits (rhythm) and steady (rather appropriate) tempo with correct bending and basic equitational alignment/effect. But the degree(s) are rather flexible. Imho, it should not exist because people who cannot canter safely should not be showing. But that is my opinion, it is rather pc (since so few people now come up through pc).
Why did training level come into being (in the 60s)? Because they were trying to get converts from h/j to dressage. Hence, the requirement that the horse only had to accept the bit, rather than be on the bit. Waetjen stated that america needed a zero level, and now they had it. For them it wasnt even a materiale class. Ahhh, well history.
Engagement (to some degree) comes whenever the horse moves with a free stride. But if needs effective half halts to be improved. So, it really would start at first, because effective hh produce greater degrees of flexion (of all the hindleg joints) creating impulsion and articulation. Engagement certainly must come before collectability.
Certainly ‘on the bit’/above the bit/behind the bit MUST be used when it is a REQUIREMENT for a level (ie 1st+), but a horse can be hollow/or too low/shortened preciptiously when they not accepting the bit (training).
Correct positioning (vs counterbent) is a very critical concept from the beginning of training, merely riding a figure in any manner is not enough. It is not enough in pc, nor in into.
The usdf did not always have the judges program, but the ahsa certainly did (for about 20 years before the usdf).
Certainly one should NOT ride a baby in shoulder fore or shoulder in. A thought of it perhaps, but the ability to capture the horse in the outside rein comes over time/progressively/through the use of progressively smaller figures/etc). But certainly keeping the nuchal ligament flexed inside IS necessary, as is control of the outside shoulder.
The wierdest thing I have seen in a lesson (repeatedly said) is an international rider saying keep the horse straight (upper level horse’s mind you), and explaining that as board straight LY counterflexion all the time). LY head to the wall has a place, but it is not traditional straightness (which is first position).
To me Intro Level IS “welcome to showing” level or “level 0” as Gallop says and I look at it with a very general outlines and try not to focus on the details. Activity and suppleness is a huge (main) parts of Training Level, but what about those who didn’t develop the activity yet but are on the correct training path towards it? I think they should be able to show Into and be rewarded at least a “7”. So even if the horse doesn’t have a needed activity (but not to the point of laboring; and doesn’t have needed suppleness, but not to the point of being stiff) – it’s OK for me at Intro, they are still working on it.
I do look the same on the “inverted horses” – b. c. they are not on the correct training path – even if they do have a steady contact, they do brace against rider’s hands and this is a fault of “resistance”. But if the horse has the light contact with his head carriage still kind off too high, but horse is not throwing his head up or dunking down or leaning on the reins – just a steady contact – that is OK for me – I don’t really care where his head is as long as the contact is light and steady at Intro Level. That is much better than a rider 30% BTV, 30% head in the air and 30% right on perfect position. The rider who is see-sawing or holding horse’s head in the place by force is not on the correct path eather.
I like to see a distinct difference between the levels – so if the horse is just trotting affront of me – I can guess what level that hose is. That goes for me for the difference between Intro and Training Level. If I see a Training Level work at Intro level, I will be happy to give out 8, 9 and 10 scores. But just an Intro level quality horse should be able to score 7 and 8 at Intro Level as well. I’ll get tougher at Training Level when time will come for them. For now, at Intro level I’m just looking to see IF THEY ARE ON THE CORRECT TRAINING PATH. That’s really all that I need to see. If they are it’s already a 7 for me. If the details are good, the score goes up.
But if they are not on the correct path of progressive training – for example “counter flexed”: it’s totally incorrect way of riding and will derail the horse’s progress – I’ll go as low as 4 and 3 for such mistakes of “not correct direction of training” If they do have the correct flexion, then the correct bend will follow. Nothing productive will come out of the incorrect counter flexed horse.
But if they are not on the correct path of progressive training – for example “counter flexed”: it’s totally incorrect way of riding and will derail the horse’s progress – I’ll go as low as 4 and 3 for such mistakes of “not correct direction of training” If they do have the correct flexion, then the correct bend will follow. Nothing productive will come out of the incorrect counter flexed horse.
If they are truly counterflexed then I agree; however, what I have been seeing is definitely a lack of suppleness and a lack of true bend but not to the point of really being counterflexed. IMO that should receive somewhere in the neighborhood of a 5 though I fully admit that I am not a judge nor have I gone through the L program.
For example, my daughter was given decent (6’s mostly, an occasional 5 and occasional 7) scores for her intro tests but the judge went on and on about how the horse was lacking lateral and longitidinal suppleness (again I don’t disagree) but then went on to comment that the horse was counterbent on the centerline. Come again? I taped the ride and know she is/was stiff to the right but did not appreciate true counterbending. I then rode the same horse (pony really) in a training level class in front of same judge, knowing that we had issues but am working through her canter whenever we have the chance - this was a schooling show and I do not have a full size dressage arena. I know I have to really use my inside leg and demand that the pony give through the rib cage. I received similar scores but was told that I was riding the horse in too high a level of a frame (ie, third level and not training level) and that I shouldn’t go so deep into the corners at training level. I can promise you that if I do not truly have the pony accepting and “into” the outside rein the canter depart doesn’t happen; but, for this particular judge it was as if there was no middle ground. The pony was never counterbent. She will/does however travel straight as a board if you do not concentrate on inside leg to outside hand which is a concept and coordination that my daughter is still working on.
My daughter had another judge that discussed how at intro the pony had lovely engagement, nicely forward but lacked longitudinal suppleness. I had no problem with this but she wrote counterbent on the diagonal movement. Honestly I was not standing where I could really assess, though watching the videotape it does not appear that the horse was really “bent” one way or the other. Her corners were definitely not counterbent but she wasn’t as supple as anyone would have liked. Though the point is, again, we’re talking intro level. She was however above the bit for 50% of the test and did display too much tension and not enough relaxation; so, perhaps the judge just had a different way of pointing “that” out.
I find though that the comments regardless of how correct they might be if not translated in the presence of someone who watched the test might be misinterpreted and result in the rider hauling on the face as opposed to developing the seat and correct balance of the horse. Hey but what do I know? - just a lowly amateur, not a judge, not a professional trainer though I think I have a reasonable understanding of balance when I’m watching it (and riding it).
