“Early” may be interpreted differently by different people, and I’d definitely like to hear what people consider “early” in their responses.
Given that it’s optional at 3rd and 4th, for the sake of argument, say “early” = introduced when schooling 2nd with the intent of probably showing in the double at 3rd.
For what kind of horse-rider pair is it best to start showing in the double at 3rd? At 4th? Wait until FEI?
Depending on the horse, I generally like to hack them out the month or two before I’m ready to start the changes. I find that walking on the buckle the horse really learns to “hold” the bits and get comfortable with them without any pressure.
That said I’ve had horses do the following examples and many more in between:
One horse has not been 100% comfortable in the double and he’s showing 4th right now in a snaffle and schooling ones and p/p. Perhaps he will one day or perhaps he won’t go in a double. He will let us know, he’s only 8 and had a lot of teeth issues when we got him, but he’s great in the snaffle so no issue.
Ive also had one struggle being to light in the contact in a snaffle and he was much improved in the contact in the double and I wondered why I waited so long!
One we had since I used to event and struggled with how heavy he was in the contact (heavy draft cross) and I just struggled getting him quick enough behind. Two years to get the changes on and after they were finished I put the double on… OMG did I want to kick myself! He’s schooling all the GP and he goes in the double every single ride. I try every once in a while to try a light school in a snaffle; neither of us appreciate the effort.
Ive even had one who is completely by the book. I mean I swear he read them and follows them to the letter. He can go in either set up and be the perfect gentlemen he is. His Mom is very lucky!
I think the best plan is where you listen to your horse, try your plan but be willing to change it if needed. They are all individuals. The double is just another tool like any other we use around horses; use it well and it’s a fabulous asset… use it badly and it’s best to back off ASAP! Best of the luck.
Agree w/ poster above to let them get used to it in “non-work” situations first. Then see what you get when doing training rides. And you may need to tinker with the type of curb - port size, etc. I ride mine in a revolving cheek curb;http://buckscountysaddlery.com/product_info.php?cPath=227&products_id=99000831.
With the traditional curb he was wanting to curl/drop behind bit. This makes him much happier. Some people ride in double all the time once they are introduced. Others not… SO horse dependent! I will go back to the snaffle periodically - as my trainer says - it will expose things were I’m not correct. Though he can do all the movements (Inter. 1) in the snaffle, he will get a bit strong at shows.
Why do you want to use a double at 2nd Level?
If the horse is “heavy” at 2nd Level, then more training (of the rider) is required…not a new bit for the horse.
The only reason to use a double bridle is because it is required by the rules at FEI competitions.
I don’t think OP was saying they wanted to use a double at 2nd level. Just asking as an educational type thing.
I only respond to the question the OP asks
Given that it’s optional at 3rd and 4th, for the sake of argument, say “early” = introduced when schooling 2nd with the intent of probably showing in the double at 3rd.
If OP has the intent of using a double in 3rd, then that means the material being schooled in 2nd level is difficult and why I suggested more training for the rider rather than a new bit for the horse.
The purpose of 3-3 is
To confirm that the horse demonstrates correct basics, and having begun to develop an uphill balance at Second Level, now demonstrates increased engagement, especially in the extended gaits. Transitions between collected, medium and extended gaits should be well defined and performed with engagement. The horse should be reliably on the bit and show a greater degree of straightness, bending, suppleness, throughness, balance and self-carriage than at Second Level
The movements in 3rd Level Test 3 are:
I am not intending to show at any level at any time in the near future. This is entirely an educational question based on comments I have seen in this forum about some horses doing better in the long run when introduced to the double “early”.
I also don’t see how someone intending to use a double at third automatically implies they find 2nd difficult. Surely there must be pairs out there where the additional refinement in contact provided by the double is both appropriate and beneficial at 3rd?
I started mine in the double as soon as he was doing changes. Call me a cheater or ineffective rider or whatever but I find that sometimes the double helps in clarifying what you want in the collected movements, which has been the case with this horse. He doesn’t much care what is in his mouth, so he wears the snaffle 80% of the time and we use the double occasionally. Other horses are the opposite.
It wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t required for refinement of the aids so I don’t see a reason to delay using it forever. If you don’t want to show then it’s a matter of preference and I don’t see the harm in it at all…
In no way did I interpret that 2nd was hard from OP’s questions. I read that they were merely asking when do you introduce the double if you plan on showing in one. Remember, not that long ago double was required at certain levels. When I did Juniors, I had to show in a double, which is equivalent to 3rd.
Waiting till you are at the level required for the double does not seem right either, as it may not give the horse ample time to get accustomed to the bits. For me, it took a while to find the right bit combination so it took time before I rode in a double. I actually did my first shows at 3rd in the snaffle. Once we found a good bit combination I use it more often, but not because we have a “weakness”. I find the double very refined and precise, but can still get the same quality of work without it. I do ride in the snaffle more than the double.
You can’t judge when a horse is ready to introduce the double solely by the level you show. There are many reasons to introduce it, or not even use one at all.
I’ve been introducing a horse to the double bridle the last four weeks. I do not ride dressage, I am a Forward Seat rider. This horse, Bingo, is the worst conformed riding horse I’ve ever ridden, he will never be a dressage horse–thick bull neck, low set neck, super high croup. He is a dun QH, 22 years old,previously ridden Western–my riding teacher thinks his mouth was severely abused by the bit long before he got dumped at her stable. I’d been riding him in a double jointed Wellep snaffle, probably my gentlest bit, before he had a seven month vacation (my riding teacher wanted me to work some on two other horses.)
When his long vacation ended (I asked to start riding him again, much to my riding teacher’s surprise since I prefer Arabians,) I was super glad his previous evasions to riding had not come back (balking, fast long-distance backing up) so at least I knew my previous riding had born some fruit. However we went back to the beginning as far as responsiveness to the bit was concerned (at least he took and kept contact readily), it was back to “I do not know what this means,” “why, oh why do you want me to do this?”, “oh, I guess I will obey you since you really insist” and “why are you persisting since I don’t want to obey you at all?”
I had planned to introduce one of the other horses to the double bridle, but one, the OTTB, was obviously not quite ready before he got me off, and the other one was miffed because he was learning how to cope with beginning and intermediate riders and did not want to change for me. I took a closer look at Bingo’s mouth and noticed that the corners of his lips were high enough that there was definitely room for two bits. So I asked my riding teacher if I could introduce him to the double bridle, promising her I would never try to make him do anything that his conformation does not allow (remember, SUPER thick neck side-to-side at the top, he will NEVER “get in frame.”)
Determined to make Bingo as comfortable as possible I followed the bitting instructions in “On Seats and Saddles, Bits and Bitting” by Francis Dwyer. I measured his mouth vertically above the chin groove (4 1/2"), got a fixed cheek Weymouth curb of that size to go with the 4 3/4" French-link bradoon, and fussed with his bridle until the bits were situated correctly, with the curb mouthpiece just above the chin groove.
I was expecting Bingo to freak out, but Bingo just shrugged and acted like it was a non-event. I’ve been riding with the curb rein sagging slightly, just tweaking my fingers a little bit when I ask for something from the curb bit. The first time he was still resistant to stopping and really reluctant to back up, for both I had to end up setting my hands with the bradoon rein. By the third ride he was stopping readily when I asked first with the bradoon and then with the curb, but his backing up was still reluctant.
Last week though, his stopping got much better, and when I asked him to back up he readily obeyed softly, cheerfully giving me two full strides with light hand aids instead of us having a full minute of “discussion” before he would give me micro-steps backward.
His attitude has changed from “WTF are you asking me for? I can’t do this”, to cheerfully “saying” “I’ve got this. I understand you now.”
Bingo is the fifth horse I’ve introduced the double bridle to. Thinking back on these horses at least one other one (7/8 Arab/ASB mare with a screw loose in her head, she had been broke Western in a Western Tom Thumb bit 3/4" too wide) also learned how to understand the action of my light hand aids with the double bridle, though that mare took me six months before she was sure about it all.
I am beginning to believe that when there are two bits in the horse’s mouth, that between the actions of the curb bit and the bradoon the horse can compare the two and figure out what each bit means. It is like all of a sudden I have access to the “rational intellectual” part of Bingo’s brain instead of the fear and panic part of his brain. He is interested, he is responsive, he responds cheerfully instead of reluctantly, and what I pick up from him is “I FINALLY understand what you are saying.”
I tested this out by riding in an even gentler snaffle, a “blue alloy” ported Mullen mouth bit (Shires) and while he was not quite as responsive as he had been in the double bridle I had a much, much better ride from him than in the Wellep snaffle (which turns into a Mullen mouth when both reins are used.)
Even though Bingo is the most unsuitable horse for the double bridle I’ve ever seen, both me and my riding teacher think that Bingo is actually starting to enjoy his bits. Since Bingo is so darn prompt to give us the finger when he is displeased (whenever we expect him to do anything) I am greatly encouraged and considering using the double bridle more in the future with other horses that do not really “need” it.
The double bridle helped Bingo FIGURE STUFF OUT FINALLY about bits and hand aids (and yes, I also use leg and seat aids along with the bits.) I personally see no harm in using a double bridle on a lower level horse as long as the curb rein is sagging a little bit, and you may be pleasantly surprised with the results, I sure was!
Unfortunately, I too have seen many people who can’t wait to get to 3rd level so they can use a double bridle. Typically, their horses aren’t through and they think/hope that heavy artillery in the horse’s mouth is going to help.
I agree that more training of both horse and rider is typically what’s needed.
That said, one of my horses is somewhat insecure and seems to really like the double bridle and extra metal in his mouth. I’ve had 2 others that I never put in a double because they were so great in snaffles and while they had both shown FEI, I wasn’t doing that so no reason.
YMMV
@atlatl, what do you mean by insecure? How did that manifest? Like, sucked back in a plain snaffle, but more willing to go forward into the contact in a double?
I wish I could quote the OP within your quote. That would make this clearer.
I think the OP named that threshold-- introducing the double bridle when the horse is at 2nd level with the intention of showing in it at 3rd level–just to establish an actual definition or threshold of “early.” I think that’s all it was.
That said, great thread! So many questions for y’all. I’ll post those the quoted stuff my questions come from below.
Thanks!
He simply isn’t brave and is easily distracted. I suspect the double is more obvious to him so he concentrates more on the rider. No contact problems with this one.
I started my horse in the double when we were at Second Level (I think we had shown 2nd a few times) at the advice of my trainer. He had gotten so much stronger in his body, he was actually overpowering his balance and I needed the extra help of just having the curb there to help him figure out his balance better. We also were about to start the changes and we wanted him to be comfortable in the double before we started the changes. We started him by basically hacking around the arena (he’s not safe to hack out) with it, with zero pressure.
I ride in the double about once a week to every 10 days. I actually need to be using it more so we can both continue our education with it.
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