What looks like Laminitis, but isn't?

Clydesdale - Yes, he’s registered. Not sure your reason for asking, so will throw this information in. He is NOT part of the Budweiser breeding program. While I commend them for throwing a lot of money into the breed and contributing to breed awareness, their breeding program focuses on color above all else. But I didn’t do any other research into his lineage before buying. According to what I can find in the Registry, most of the other horses from that breeder are not being used for breeding which leads me to wonder if maybe there’s good reason for that.

Safe Choice - I’ve read the complaints against it, and am still unconvinced. The University had us switch to a Purina line of feed, saying he didn’t have Insulin Resistance, so were suggesting he be on their Ration Balancer in the summer (Enrich), and “Equine Adult” feed in winter. We did that recommendation last summer last winter, and this past summer. But I’ve gone back to Safe Choice because I was tired of the Purina stuff being moldy in the bag (once) and getting hockey puck sized globs of who knows what (multiple times). So we’re back to Safe Choice since the start of September.

Dex test & Laminitis - The vet did make me aware of the risk for laminitis. I decided to proceed anyway because I’ve had so much trouble with this horse over the years, I was eager to get more answers. He was monitored closely for a week following the dex test, and no problems whatsoever.

I don’t know what’s wrong, but you are doing some things that might be involved if it is laminitis: Safe Choice and Well Solve. If you live in the West, LMF Low Carb Complete is okay, Kings Feed makes the Carborater (sp) line which is very low carb. Triple Crown Sr is very low carb and can be purchased in all regions of the country.

I didn’t get/see what type of hay he gets, but you can soak it before feeding (cold water for one hour, hot water for 1/2 hour) to lower the carb content.

Just to relieve the pain if the cause is in the feet, you might want to invest in some Soft Ride boots (if they make them big enough).

I hope you find the cause. I know how awful it can be when you can’t find a fix.

PS: I’m leery of the University’s suggestion that Safe Choice is okay. Iirc, the only thing that’s “safe” is the starch, and that’s a 17% max. (Way too high in my experience.) It doesn’t help the sugar content at all.

Why did the vet recommend waiting for x-rays? I would think if there was ANY question of laminitis, x-rays would be the first thing done no matter what the showing/trimming situation is. Even more so, if there is concern that the current hoof conformation was causing pain to determine future hoof care.

I agree with WNT. X-rays can be very valuable for directing what is needed for shoeing, not just whether he has rotated or not.

I do periodic ‘well horse’ x-rays of hooves (all 4) just to check what is on the inside and be able to correct small deficiencies before they become a problem. Money well spent.

Susan

[QUOTE=ladymcts;8904563]

Safe Choice - I’ve read the complaints against it, and am still unconvinced. [/QUOTE]
Unconvinced of…the experiences others have had with it?

Question: which SC are you feeding? Safechoice is a line of feeds, of which there are 6 products. If you are feeding the Original, that is 22% NSC, which is not remotely safe for horses with metabolic issues. Perform is even worse at 28%. Maintenance is worse too - 25%. I’m assuming you’re not feeding the Sr or the M&F or the Special Care. But of those, the Special Care, the lowest NSC at 15%, is still only marginally ok for metabolic horses, and still too high for many.

It’s also really important to understand that a horse can test negative for all the available IR tests, and still be sensitive enough to NSC that he has to be fed as if he test IR.

The University had us switch to a Purina line of feed, saying he didn’t have Insulin Resistance, so were suggesting he be on their Ration Balancer in the summer (Enrich), and “Equine Adult” feed in winter. We did that recommendation last summer last winter, and this past summer. But I’ve gone back to Safe Choice because I was tired of the Purina stuff being moldy in the bag (once) and getting hockey puck sized globs of who knows what (multiple times). So we’re back to Safe Choice since the start of September.

Be wary, really, of Universities recommending feeds, and in particular, many of them are funded, in part, by Purina, so of course recommend them. There’s a reason most vets come out of vet school knowing very little about actually feeding horses - the Universities aren’t teaching it because they don’t know much about it either, unless someone has chosen to specialize in it. So sadly, Universities and vets are often a poor source of dietary recommendations :frowning: And this includes the fact that many of them still recommend sudden additions of bran mashes and using Coastal Bermuda hay for impaction surgery patients :eek: :no:

Dex test & Laminitis - The vet did make me aware of the risk for laminitis. I decided to proceed anyway because I’ve had so much trouble with this horse over the years, I was eager to get more answers. He was monitored closely for a week following the dex test, and no problems whatsoever.

Just understand it is totally unnecessary as a test when there is the ACTH test. I don’t understand why vets still even suggest the dex test, when the ACTH is a better representation of what you’re looking at, without the laminitis risk.

C’mon JB let’s not be so scathing about veterinary knowledge of nutrition. Among others, I’ve met Dr. Kellogg and she’s quite bright. And there are others, and they tend to share information. :wink:

Of course! I never said nobody knows, and I did say “unless they tend to specialize”.

But there are SO MANY stories of people whose vets tell them that Dumor is a fine product to feed, that Country Acres is fine since it’s easily available, that bran mashes once a week or just when it’s cold are fine, and really, a hospital putting a horse fresh off colic surgery, on bran mashes and Coastal hay? Not cool.

When vets think IR is just the disease of the day, that horses don’t ever need that much fat in their diet, and more, it’s clear they are not getting educated on how to FEED horses in general, much less challenged horses.

In general, human Drs know little about feeding people and vets know little about feeding horses (or cats or dogs).

For an IR horse, is a high fat low sugar feed like Ultium safe? Assuming you feed an appropriate amount and forage main diet.

Ultium isn’t low NSC. It’s lowER than many, but at 15% (16?) NSC, it’s borderline too high for some, and definitely too high for many.

More current research is showing a link between adding fat and increasing IR issues. I don’t think there’s a definitive “don’t let it get over 10% of the total diet” or something, but there’s definitely some link between adding fat, and issues.

Dr Kellon doesn’t recommend diets be more then 4% fat for an IR horse. Most IR horses should be at 10% NCS or lower,depending on how sensitive they are. For more info on this yahoo group has all info needed to keep and IR horse healthy.

I read on this group all the time to keep myself educated on this metabolic stuff,being i own Arabs who are kinda chunky monkeys.

Is that recommendation based on educated guesses, or is there some bit of research on that? Just curious, as I hadn’t found any, just info on not going around adding fat as a source of calories for the harder keeping IR horses. And heaven forbid you have an IR PSSM horse :eek:

[QUOTE=JB;8905407]
Is that recommendation based on educated guesses, or is there some bit of research on that? Just curious, as I hadn’t found any, just info on not going around adding fat as a source of calories for the harder keeping IR horses. And heaven forbid you have an IR PSSM horse :eek:[/QUOTE]

From what i read everything is based on research not educated guesses. I’m a member but don’t post on this group,can only access files and other info by being a member.

From post i read on their they require test numbers and every detail on horse and blood work done. From what i read they help many, many horses and owners in crisis.

They do help many people and their horses; I’m one of them.

Ten years ago, when most people didn’t know zip about laminitis or IR, vets were actually telling people to cure laminitis by “cutting back on the grain”. AND, using the Dex Suppression test because it was the gold standard. Really. God knows how many horses were pushed into founder because of this gold standard.

And some vets are still giving out the same information!* In fact, a vet I know, who has an elderly parade horse that’s probably cushingoid from its looks, is feeding this horse straight corn to boost his weight. Do vets not have continuing education requirements in order to keep their licences?

*Not all. Some, probably most, make the effort to keep up.

A question re: 10% NSC. What feeds, including hay, offer NSC that low? The best I’ve been able to do is 11% for sack feed (TCsr & Kings Carborater sr). Some of the alfalfa I buy will be that low without soaking, but 12–13% is more common.

EmilyM: I did have my IR/early cushings horse on Ultium for a time, and his numbers were not off the charts, but higher than in the initial test. I haven’t had him checked since switching back to TC, but he “seems” to be better.

[QUOTE=Hermein;8906397]
EmilyM: I did have my IR/early cushings horse on Ultium for a time, and his numbers were not off the charts, but higher than in the initial test. I haven’t had him checked since switching back to TC, but he “seems” to be better.[/QUOTE]

I will just throw this out there… my trainer tried her founder-prone horse on 2 CUPS of Ultium twice a day (with NO other life changes) and he foundered within a week. Just saying…

OP, if you haven’t x-rayed, you don’t know it’s not laminitis. And if it IS laminitis, you’re talking about playing a very dangerous game by not x-raying and treating. Rocking back means A LOT of pain (generally). DO NOT WAIT! Please.

[QUOTE=Hermein;8906397]
A question re: 10% NSC. What feeds, including hay, offer NSC that low? The best I’ve been able to do is 11% for sack feed (TCsr & Kings Carborater sr). Some of the alfalfa I buy will be that low without soaking, but 12–13% is more common.

EmilyM: I did have my IR/early cushings horse on Ultium for a time, and his numbers were not off the charts, but higher than in the initial test. I haven’t had him checked since switching back to TC, but he “seems” to be better.[/QUOTE]

Triple Crown Lite

http://www.triplecrownfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/NSC-values_October2016.pdf

[QUOTE=Hermein;8906360]
vets were actually telling people to cure laminitis by “cutting back on the grain”.[/QUOTE]
And worse, they were saying feed the crappiest hay you can fine :rolleyes: And that recommendation is STILL out there :frowning:

I don’t fault vets for recommending things “back then” because most of the time it was based on what was known (and when it comes to laminitis, that wasn’t much). What bothers me a LOT is that some of this stuff has become SUCH common knowledge, readily available in the AAEP site and freely given out at their conventions, that the majority of vets should know these things by now, but they don’t :frowning:

To my knowledge:
Poulin Carb Safe
TC Safe Starch Forage and Timothy Balance cubes
Seminole Wellness “safe” products though I’m not sure if all of them are at/below 10, though are close

TC Lite definitely is, though that’s not appropriate for a harder keeper unless you can supplement with alflafa pellets or beet pulp

EmilyM: I did have my IR/early cushings horse on Ultium for a time, and his numbers were not off the charts, but higher than in the initial test. I haven’t had him checked since switching back to TC, but he “seems” to be better.

Not surprised - it’s 15% NSC or so, and any significant amounts, ie how you’re supposed to feed it, is too much for the majority of those horses :frowning:

Re vet knowledge of nutrition.
Here’s the curriculum of a couple large vet schools. Can you find any required courses in nutrition?
http://education.vetmed.ufl.edu/dvm-curriculum/

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/admissions/curriculum/docs/GraduationRequirements2018updatedsept152014.pdf

Why does anyone assume that vets are trained in nutrition? Go to a conference with a bunch of PhD’s in equine nutrition and hear what they say about vets giving nutrition advice.
When your water is leaking, do you ask for advice from an electrician?
And don’t EVEN get me started on vets giving pasture management advice.

So … we have an update. For those who asked why ![]( wasn’t getting Xrays as soon as possible, there were several reasons but if I bothered to go into them it would probably have just fostered some unnecessary drama. I was planning to wait until he had been thru another set of shoes, putting us somewhere into late December or early January. But thanks to the comments in this thread I did go ahead and get a set sooner rather than later (and will still do another set once his shoes are off).

The vet was on a very tight schedule and was squeezing me in strictly for a check of laminitis\coffin bone rotation. He did not do a thorough lameness workup, nor did we talk at length about treatments mainly because for now I’m sticking to my plan of giving the horse the winter off and continuing with shoeing.

He said the angles are good and there are no signs of laminitis or rotation. He was very concerned with pedal osteits, side bone, and a bone spur. He said these are the cause of intermittent lameness. He held firm to his assessment that the horse needs shoes. He recommended treatments such as Osphos, Tildren, and/or Equi-bone.

[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/lady_mcse/ReggieXrays/LF2.jpg)

[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/lady_mcse/ReggieXrays/RF1.jpg)

[IMG]http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m292/lady_mcse/ReggieXrays/LF1.jpg)

Regarding the horse’s nutrition, I’ve moved him to a different barn where his herd is smaller, the barn less public (minimizing the possibilty that strangers are giving him treats unknown to me), and his feed schedule will be more rigid. He’s on a comparatively small pasture where the grass is mostly nibbled down to nothing.

(Note: the photobucket library contains 3 current xrays along with some older ones.)