What made Seattle Slew a great sire?

shammy, I think Mr. P had already made his mark all over Florida before he got snatched up by KY. The mainstream KY breeders didn’t know what to do with him, but Nerud sure had a plan!

ASB, what you say is true, but I’m not sure what you are getting at other than pointing out the obvious? Call me dim, but horses that do well on the track/look better on paper get better books in the early days, because what else do you have except a crystal ball? The better either of those categories is, the better the first few books are likely to be, there is nothing new or exciting about that.

CC is going to get a good book. SS, comparatively speaking, probably got a better book and then he proved he deserved to keep it. Affirmed got a good book and then lost it. All three of them probably get a better first book than horses who will end up having more impact in the long run. None of it matters as soon as that first crop hits the track.

[QUOTE=DMK;8095418]
shammy, I think Mr. P had already made his mark all over Florida before he got snatched up by KY. The mainstream KY breeders didn’t know what to do with him, but Nerud sure had a plan!

ASB, what you say is true, but I’m not sure what you are getting at other than pointing out the obvious? Call me dim, but horses that do well on the track/look better on paper get better books in the early days, because what else do you have except a crystal ball? The better either of those categories is, the better the first few books are likely to be, there is nothing new or exciting about that.

CC is going to get a good book. SS, comparatively speaking, probably got a better book and then he proved he deserved to keep it. Affirmed got a good book and then lost it. All three of them probably get a better first book than horses who will end up having more impact in the long run. None of it matters as soon as that first crop hits the track.[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe John Nerud had anything to do with Mr. Prospector when he stood in Florida. I believe you are thinking of Dr. Fager. Mr. P was trained by Jimmy Croll (of Holy Bull fame among others) and retired to his owner’s farm Butch Savin in Florida to stand.

“The mainstream KY breeders didn’t know what to do with him” Not sure what you mean by this. He was bought and re-syndicated by Claiborne Farm. I can guarantee you they had a “plan”. IMO and just about anyone that makes a living in the industry will say the same, Claiborne has one of if not the strongest “list” of elite breeders/shareholders in this country and in the world.

Mr. P made his mark while standing in Florida but given Florida’s lack of “mare power” it is very doubtful he would have gained the stature he did in KY let alone become a “breed changer” if he had stayed there. Especially in those days.

This is a link to a good article about Mr. P written by John Sparkman.
http://www.teamvalor.com/misc/Mr_Prospector_lives_on.pdf

Here’s a recent Bloodhorse article about Slew.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/84765/the-continuing-impact-of-seattle-slew

I won’t pretend I keep up with TB’s nowadays, but I do have a SS grandson (sire was a SS colt).

He (my boy) was a crappy racehorse (never broke maiden) but has been a STELLAR performance horse his entire life (he’s 20 now) and has a personality to die for.

Just throwin’ it out there.
:slight_smile:

A couple of things need to be kept in perspective when talking about Slew’s pedigree and purchase price.

His dam My Charmer was by a respected broodmare sire of the day. My Charmer won 6 races. Winning at 2 and 3, $34,113. Which doesn’t seem like a lot of money but converted using an inflation calculator that is $192,000 in “today’s dollars”. She won the Fairgrounds Oaks before the Grading system was in place. It was then as it is now a respected stakes race. The Fairgrounds Oaks is a Grade 2 race and the purse was $500,000 last year. Her dam was at the time a modest producer but was still young. In the end did not produce much of note. My Charmer’s third dame was a top notch race filly and Champion 2 year old. With plenty of family behind her.

His “low” purchase price of $17,500 was not exactly “low” in 1975. I don’t have what the sale averaged that year but I would bet it was around $7-10,000. Last year the average price for over 7,000 yearling sold at auction was around $60,000, converting that to 1975 dollars, $13,000. Slew purchase price in today’s dollars would be over $76,000. Not exactly a “bargain”.

Not as bad as the author of Sea Biscuit saying that he was bought for the “paltry” (her words) price of $7,500. $7,500 (over $126,000 today) in the mid 30s while the country was still recovering from the Great Depression for horse that had lost umpteen races was a huge price. The sellers laughed all the way to the bank. Though the buyer had the last laugh.

Slew’s sire Bold Reasoning won 2 important stakes, set a track record at Belmont and stood at the highly respected to this day Claiborne Farm. He only sired 3 crops having suffered a breeding shed accident. Slew being from his second. So he was an “unknown” commodity having nothing to race at the time. But given his connections and race record his get would have drawn attention. With Slew being from his second crop who knows what kind of stallion he may have become. A one hit wonder or the second coming and a “house hold name”.

Slew was not an ugly crooked legged yearling as is often written. He rotated, turned out in one leg which is seen in a lot of yearlings. More times than not as they grow and their chest fills out their legs come “back in”. I saw Slew many times at stud and IMO he was a very good looking horse that had his “faults” but nothing that any astute horseman would have problems with.

My father was a “principle” for many years in Fasig Tipton the auction company that sold him. The company had just set up “shop” in KY to compete with Keeneland. The sales pavilion hadn’t been built at the time and they sold out of a tent. The sale of Slew and several other high profile horses around that time put the company on solid footing in hard-boot country. My father said Slew was not an ugly yearling at all. A bit gangly and unfinished, going through an awkward stage. As the saying goes with anybody that has an eye for a horse, “I can see a nice horse in there”.

As with any stallion one never knows if they will hit or not. But Slew was a “BIG talking horse” and Leslie Combs (founder of Spendthrift) was still extremely well respected and held a good deal of “breeding power”. He like Claiborne had a lot of “broodmare power” in his pocket. Nothing guarantees a stallion’s success but getting top mares to them goes a LONG way. The rest as they say is history. No serious student of TB breeding would say that Slew was a “freak”. He was given every opportunity that very few get and he made the most of it. Pretty much right up to the day he was retired. He, Northern Dance and Mr. Prospector were modern day “breed changers”.

This is a link to his 2008 pedigree page. Keep in mind Slew was her first foal.
http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/bris_link.cgi/public/SeattleSlew/SEATTLE+SLEW/1974/750.html

[QUOTE=gumtree;8095505]
I don’t believe John Nerud had anything to do with Mr. Prospector when he stood in Florida. I believe you are thinking of Dr. Fager. Mr. P was trained by Jimmy Croll (of Holy Bull fame among others) and retired to his owner’s farm Butch Savin in Florida to stand.

“The mainstream KY breeders didn’t know what to do with him” Not sure what you mean by this. He was bought and re-syndicated by Claiborne Farm. I can guarantee you they had a “plan”. IMO and just about anyone that makes a living in the industry will say the same, Claiborne has one of if not the strongest “list” of elite breeders/shareholders in this country and in the world.

Mr. P made his mark while standing in Florida but given Florida’s lack of “mare power” it is very doubtful he would have gained the stature he did in KY let alone become a “breed changer” if he had stayed there. Especially in those days.

This is a link to a good article about Mr. P written by John Sparkman.
http://www.teamvalor.com/misc/Mr_Prospector_lives_on.pdf[/QUOTE]

Sorry, that reference to Nerud may have been a little in the weeds of history. No I most definitely wasn’t thinking of Dr. Fager, but rather when Nerud took that really nice Fager mare he had and came up with a horse called Fappiano. The way Jimmy’s assistant told it (my age is showing), they didn’t want him in KY, but hey, my memory is old since this was in the HB days. Fl getting KY’s discards and then sending them back when they “make good” is kind of a thing. That is generally how the history is recounted in FL with due credit to FL’s feeling that they make some great horses and then send them to KY to finish their career! There’s some bitterness and truth to that feeling.

But rest assured I wasn’t thinking Dr, Fager. He’s a great horse but when it comes to great FL farms like Tartan, I tend to think about the Girls and In Reality, with maybe a dash of Minnesota Mac because he was super cool (and of course, it’s hard to get to the Bull without some Minnesota Mac). <— see back to Jimmy again.

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8095134]
Just my imagination running away with me and maybe my nose to deep in TB history books, but SS was the only TC winning stallion that made a significant impact on the breed. AP Indy won the Belmont. Pulpit, Dynaformer, Hail to Reason, Mr Prospector, just to name a few since the 60’s didn’t win a TC race. The most significant, Bold Ruler, with seven or eight leading sire titles only won the Preakness. Some of you might recall others, but seems to me that winning the TC is not a plus in stud barn.[/QUOTE]

War Admiral and Count Fleet both were top sires and also top broodmare sires. War Admiral in particular got some awesome fillies in terms of their production. CF got 9% stakes winners (again in the day of small books), multiple Horses of the Year, multiple classic winners and champions, had 5 earners of more than $100,000 in 1951 (age of far smaller purses), and was broodmare sire of Kelso. WA sired champions, a Horse of the Year, and set an earnings record for progeny in 1945. He was leading sire, leading juvenile sire, and leading broodmare sire for a “TC of stud performance.” He had 11% stakes winners. WA was broodmare sire of, among many others, Buckpasser, who of course was an influential sire in his own right. He was also broodmare sire of Affectionately, Hoist the Flag, Crafty Admiral, and Gun Bow. He is in the pedigree of fellow TC winners Slew and Affirmed.

I read a breakdown of TC winners once in an article that read thusly:

Assault - Sterile.

Sir Barton, Omaha, Whirlaway - Pretty much flops.

Gallant Fox, Citation - Got a few decent horses but nowhere near expectations.

Secretariat, Affirmed - Steady good sires but not approaching themselves.

War Admiral, Count Fleet, Seattle Slew - Great sires.

Both Seattle Slew and Mr. P come from the amazing Myrtlewood family, thus back to Frizette. Nothing ordinary about this family at all.

[QUOTE=dressagetraks;8096230]
War Admiral and Count Fleet both were top sires and also top broodmare sires. War Admiral in particular got some awesome fillies in terms of their production. CF got 9% stakes winners (again in the day of small books), multiple Horses of the Year, multiple classic winners and champions, had 5 earners of more than $100,000 in 1951 (age of far smaller purses), and was broodmare sire of Kelso. WA sired champions, a Horse of the Year, and set an earnings record for progeny in 1945. He was leading sire, leading juvenile sire, and leading broodmare sire for a “TC of stud performance.” He had 11% stakes winners. WA was broodmare sire of, among many others, Buckpasser, who of course was an influential sire in his own right. He was also broodmare sire of Affectionately, Hoist the Flag, Crafty Admiral, and Gun Bow. He is in the pedigree of fellow TC winners Slew and Affirmed.

I read a breakdown of TC winners once in an article that read thusly:

Assault - Sterile.

Sir Barton, Omaha, Whirlaway - Pretty much flops.

Gallant Fox, Citation - Got a few decent horses but nowhere near expectations.

Secretariat, Affirmed - Steady good sires but not approaching themselves.

War Admiral, Count Fleet, Seattle Slew - Great sires.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

I would like to say that for those of you that picked apart my comparison post on Mr P, my comments were general but correct. Mr P was owned by a syndicate and before Mr P went to KY there was some division on the move. The handling of Mr P was conflicted throughout his early racing and breeding careers. It all settled down once Mr P arrived in KY because Savin was bought out and Brandt was in the drivers seat. Lots written on this if anyone is interested.

My memory is not what it use to be but I do recall watching the first televised b/w derby in 1952. Don’t let the elevation of your noses or your family connections get in the way of the facts. As for Nerud, I’m sure he respected Mr P but no doubt would say he had the better racehorse.

Speaking of Florida sires going to Kentucky, look at what Fred Hooper did with some of his top sires:

–Olympia stood almost his entire breeding career at Danada in KY, returning to FL only upon retirement from stud.
–Admiral’s Voyage (broodmare sire of Danzig) stood at least the first half of his stud career in KY.

And speaking of horses from Argentina, Fred took a chance and imported the relatively unknown/unproven stallion Quibu, who then went on to sire the mare Quaze, dam of the great Susan’s Girl. Maybe more notably, Quibu sired the very good mare Smartaire, who went on to produce Smarten, the broodmare sire of Smart Strike (who was by Mr.P).

[QUOTE=Real Rush;8096506]
Speaking of Florida sires going to Kentucky, look at what Fred Hooper did with some of his top sires:

–Olympia stood almost his entire breeding career at Danada in KY, returning to FL only upon retirement from stud.
–Admiral’s Voyage (broodmare sire of Danzig) stood at least the first half of his stud career in KY.

And speaking of horses from Argentina, Fred took a chance and imported the relatively unknown/unproven stallion Quibu, who then went on to sire the mare Quaze, dam of the great Susan’s Girl. Maybe more notably, Quibu sired the very good mare Smartaire, who went on to produce Smarten, the broodmare sire of Smart Strike (who was by Mr.P).[/QUOTE]

With out Tartan, Ocala Stud and Hooper, FL would have bloomed much much later. The Sunshine state has to thank it “lucky stars” for that, yet as you note money and good mares sent stallions to KY. The same for VA. The true birthplace of USA racing, the top VA owners and breeders (Chenery, Hancock, Mellon, Guest, Janney, etc) felt no loyalty to the state and sent the best they had to KY and Europe. Ned Evans was the last of the loyalist (or somewhat loyal) and with his death came the death nell of the VA TB industry IMO.

After Savin sold his majority ownership to the Hancocks and Brandt I don’t recall any significant appearances in racing after that. Can’t recall his FL farm’s name but don’t recall much on it either. Maybe someone has some information on that?

FL has certainly bloomed. Probably the good seed for the TB industry that was not closely tied to KY sales and breeding as was MD (not to take anything away from MD’s perserverance) and NY. Now the mid-Atlantic (VA excepted) along with PA and NY are known as good producers.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.:sleepy:

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8095134]
Just my imagination running away with me and maybe my nose to deep in TB history books, but SS was the only TC winning stallion that made a significant impact on the breed. AP Indy won the Belmont. Pulpit, Dynaformer, Hail to Reason, Mr Prospector, just to name a few since the 60’s didn’t win a TC race. The most significant, Bold Ruler, with seven or eight leading sire titles only won the Preakness. Some of you might recall others, but seems to me that winning the TC is not a plus in stud barn.

What was with Danzig? As mentioned previously by DMK. Like Mr Prospector, no one but their owners thought they were worth breeding. Both ended up at Claiborne and that was push come to shove. Look what impact they’ve made. I got to laugh but neither Mr P’s trainer, Jimmy Croll, or his owner, Butch Savin, the owner, could agree on where to place Mr P when he was racing. It was Woody Stevens who practically twisted Seth’s arm to stand Danzig. Suspect that Seth and Dell are glad they suffered the pain of that.

GT’s previous comments are well taken by me as my memory is going south along with arthritis in my joints. Spendthrift certainly put SS on the map and often that is simply good marketing which brings quality mares and the like to the studs. But we know that even poor racing specimens can become top notch brood mares. Somethingroyal and Hildene come to mind. Also as previously said, the shame is that the mare owner doesn’t have (nor never has) a good broadly indexed reference at hand to help decision making. The fact is that the nicking software is only good for sire and dam lines that are frequently introduced.

It could be as simple as SS’s legacy is built on Bold Ruler or more likely Nasrullah. Along with the broodmare sire theory, there is the “grandsire influence” theory. Geez, poor Raise A Native took all the blame for unsoundness which lives today in the progeny of Unbridled Song, but you have to discount US’s AEI and production record.

Well enough. Time for my afternoon geriatric nap. I’m not saying anything you all don’t already know.[/QUOTE]

Going back even further, you could cite the example of Bull Lea, the horse that had an unremarkable racing career, but as a stud kept Calumet Farm at the top for decades.

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8096667]
With out Tartan, Ocala Stud and Hooper, FL would have bloomed much much later. [/QUOTE]

Rosemere and Hobeau Farms! Don’t forget Carl Rose and Elmer (and Kerry) Heubeck!!!

I think Savin’s Farm was called… Savin Farm.

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8096268]
As for Nerud, I’m sure he respected Mr P but no doubt would say he had the better racehorse.[/QUOTE]

Well that’s because he did. :smiley:

[QUOTE=DMK;8096732]
Rosemere and Hobeau Farms! Don’t forget Carl Rose and Elmer (and Kerry) Heubeck!!!

I think Savin’s Farm was called… Savin Farm.[/QUOTE]

Checked and its name was Aisco Farm and was near Ocala.

http://www.drf.com/news/sparkman-florida-still-proving-ground-sires

Isn’t it amazing how a bad memory can corrupt a halfway descent thread. I mean the suggestion that Nerud owned Mr. P. Really? Practically ruined my nap.

:sleepy:

[QUOTE=SportArab;8096701]
Going back even further, you could cite the example of Bull Lea, the horse that had an unremarkable racing career, but as a stud kept Calumet Farm at the top for decades.[/QUOTE]

Good point, because that was what was said about Mr P. Bold Ruler was known for speed. Bull Lea is an example of that “breeder” thinking.

Going back to SS to be fair to this thread. Don’t know whether you can say that about slew. As a racehorse, I think (JMHO) he had more demensions than that as a racehorse. Like Northern Dancer but that JMHO again, I think that ND’s attractiveness to Euro trainers like Vincent O’Brien was based on that. O’Brien came to the USA auctions just to buy ND progeny. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

The rest of the racing TB world doesn’t seem fond of Seattle Slew. He seems to be viewed as a purely American dirt track line. You’d don’t find him in elite racers in the rest of the world, unlike ND or even Mr. P. Not even AP Indy seems acceptable. This is more like Storm Cat than the other two great sire lines today.

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8096836]
Checked and its name was Aisco Farm and was near Ocala.

http://www.drf.com/news/sparkman-florida-still-proving-ground-sires

Isn’t it amazing how a bad memory can corrupt a halfway descent thread. I mean the suggestion that Nerud owned Mr. P. Really? Practically ruined my nap.

:sleepy:[/QUOTE]

Too odd, there was a Savin Farm according to some of those dusty old FL TB history booksm even noted as managed by Pat Hunter, no less. I wonder if they swapped names (since AISCO took the name Heather Hills when they moved there - oh the joys of google).

Totally not going to admit to suggesting Nerud owned P. I will totally admit to being 3 steps down a line of thought without checking to see is anyone was keeping up, especially the elderly who need their naps… :wink: :smiley:

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8095134]
Just my imagination running away with me and maybe my nose to deep in TB history books, but SS was the only TC winning stallion that made a significant impact on the breed. .[/QUOTE]

Well, “in the last thirty/forty years”, perhaps. War Admiral is still probably the most influential if only for being very important in the large-heart gene passing.

And speaking of him and his famous match race, I wouldn’t say Seabiscuit was especially unimpressive on paper. What the movie downplayed was he was by a Fair Play line stallion (a son of Man o’ War) out of a Ben Brush bred mare. War Admiral was by Man o’ War so one generation closer to Fair Play and out of a Ben Brush line mare. Fair Play, Man o’ War and their sons crossed well on mares from Ben Brush. Seabiscuit really had no reason himself not to be a decent sire and was probably hurt most by not getting a large book or the best Eastern mares.

[QUOTE=danceronice;8097309]
Well, “in the last thirty/forty years”, perhaps. War Admiral is still probably the most influential if only for being very important in the large-heart gene passing.

And speaking of him and his famous match race, I wouldn’t say Seabiscuit was especially unimpressive on paper. What the movie downplayed was he was by a Fair Play line stallion (a son of Man o’ War) out of a Ben Brush bred mare. War Admiral was by Man o’ War so one generation closer to Fair Play and out of a Ben Brush line mare. Fair Play, Man o’ War and their sons crossed well on mares from Ben Brush. Seabiscuit really had no reason himself not to be a decent sire and was probably hurt most by not getting a large book or the best Eastern mares.[/QUOTE]

Point well taken. I missed WA on the track. Maybe DMK has some personal memories of War Admiral. I am getting back in my sleep number bed and putting on my oxygen mask. I’ll leave it at that. Zzzzzzzz.