What made Seattle Slew a great sire?

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8096913]
The rest of the racing TB world doesn’t seem fond of Seattle Slew. He seems to be viewed as a purely American dirt track line. You’d don’t find him in elite racers in the rest of the world, unlike ND or even Mr. P. Not even AP Indy seems acceptable. This is more like Storm Cat than the other two great sire lines today.[/QUOTE]

Just for clarification, it is the grass racing dominated countries that don’t heavily utilize the Seattle Slew sire line, and it’s not necessarily because they think poorly of him as an individual. His sire line just doesn’t get the type of turf runners that they are breeding. It is no different than how few here would be interested in breeding to a European grass router if his offspring couldn’t run on the dirt.

Numerous Seattle Slew/AP Indy line horses have been exported to places where dirt racing is prevalent, like Japan, South America, the Middle East, etc. and successfully stand stud.

If a colt off the SS line puts in the type of impressive turf performance that catches the world’s attention and goes on to reproduce that talent in his offspring, I guarantee that particular branch of the line would spread to Europe, AUS, etc. The Tapit line is already showing less surface bias than that of his sire and grandsires and has been slowly creeping up the list of US turf sires. I think he may have reached higher ranking than any sire off the SS line… but don’t quote me on that.

[ASB_Stars]

OK…Seabiscuit, like Chrome, as well as Slew, was a “son of a son”. Their grandfathers were exemplary.

War Admiral was THE son of THE stallion of that time, and perhaps, any time. He was also beautifully bred on the bottom-- even for that time.

Howard taking Seabiscuit back to California probably ruined any real chance he had at stud, but gave him a life being loved by the man who proved who he was to the world.

War Admiral had the best of all possible worlds; he was a triple crown winner, owned by someone with unlimited resources. He got the mares.

[Texarkana]

I think a lot of the miscommunication and misunderstanding in these pedigree discussions lately stem from the fact that sport horse pedigrees and thoroughbred race horse pedigrees are evaluated somewhat differently.

The basic premise is always the same: good sires and good dams beget good horses. But thoroughbred racing has the benefit of centuries of data about breeding for a single purpose. The data just continues to become more detailed and more accessible.

The pattern has been well established for eons that the production and race records of the dam line or female family are some of the most important factors in predicting success. Specifically, you’re looking for a consistent record of mares along the bottom line outproducing themselves or producing stakes winners. Horses bred from successful producers are more likely to be successful. When thoroughbreds are sold, 3/4 of the entire catalog page is dedicated to the female family. Sires get a blurb about their race record and their offspring. Everyone else just gets their name printed on the pedigree chart; not because they are unimportant, but because history has shown that they are not as beneficial individually when predicting the success of the foal. (also, because it is assumed that their accomplishments are already known) Breeders consider the entire pedigree, but it is the combination of the sire and the production record of the female family that are the best indicators about how the horse might perform. Horses that look like they have a high chance of performing at top levels will be more highly regarded.

Sport horse breeders just don’t have the same volumes of data available about the dam line, regardless of the breed. It’s not because sport horse breeders feel the dam line is unimportant, but because the different disciplines are so diverse. The data is just harder to compile in the same manner for so many reasons that I’m not even going to attempt to name them all. It’s chiefly the stallions that end up leaving behind traceable legacies, so the pedigree on paper is evaluated primarily based on the stallions. You have to infer a lot more information about mares based on who they are sired by.

When many sport horse breeders look at racing pedigrees, I’ve noticed their eyes immediately jump to the sire, grandsire, and broodmare sire. After that, they consider the sires further back. Sometimes they investigate the race records of the dams, but they rarely consider the dams’ production records for what they are worth.

To form a more accurate assessment, you need to include evaluation the production record of the female family, specifically the first three generations. No matter how many well-known sires are seen on paper, the female family is going to make or break the overall value of the horse.

And I hope my (ridiculously long) post does not offend any of the breeding gurus we have here: both for sport and racing. We just seem to be having a lot of circular discussions that go nowhere.

[WhiteCamry]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8094284]
… Many moons ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I stood a TB stud for a syndicate. He was by Nashua, out of a Round Table mare. Pretty fancy breeding, on paper. He was also awful to deal with, but I always am more apt to blame the people who raised the horse, than the horse himself … [/QUOTE]

So pedigreequery tells us, that was either Shauna or Sir Z.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=WhiteCamry;8098481]
So pedigreequery tells us, that was either Shauna or Sir Z.[/QUOTE]

One was a non-winner and one raced in France so that seems unlikely, but PQ is not a complete or comprehensive listing.

[Shammy_Davis]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;8096268]
Thanks.

I would like to say that for those of you that picked apart my comparison post on Mr P, my comments were general but correct. Mr P was owned by a syndicate and before Mr P went to KY there was some division on the move. The handling of Mr P was conflicted throughout his early racing and breeding careers. It all settled down once Mr P arrived in KY because Savin was bought out and Brandt was in the drivers seat. Lots written on this if anyone is interested.

My memory is not what it use to be but I do recall watching the first televised b/w derby in 1952. Don’t let the elevation of your noses or your family connections get in the way of the facts. As for Nerud, I’m sure he respected Mr P but no doubt would say he had the better racehorse.[/QUOTE]

Upon reflection, I think that the comment in bolded italics above was ill-advised and anyone that I may have offended, I would like to make a sincere apology. As much as I enjoy the history of the TB industry, I should be delighted when anyone presents historical facts that improved my thinking.

I wish I could say that it was a bad day because my life support unit was interrupted by a power outage and my mailbox was filled with senior assisted care brochures along with collection notices addressed to my credit card frenzied, now adult, kids, but the fact is that I can be a little “thin skinned.”

Again, my apologies.

I’m now ready to hear (without reprisal) about DMK’s personal memories and reflections about Lexington, Phalaris, and War Admiral.

[WhiteCamry]

[QUOTE=dressagetraks;8096230]
War Admiral and Count Fleet both were top sires and also top broodmare sires. War Admiral in particular got some awesome fillies in terms of their production. CF got 9% stakes winners (again in the day of small books), multiple Horses of the Year, multiple classic winners and champions, had 5 earners of more than $100,000 in 1951 (age of far smaller purses), and was broodmare sire of Kelso. WA sired champions, a Horse of the Year, and set an earnings record for progeny in 1945. He was leading sire, leading juvenile sire, and leading broodmare sire for a “TC of stud performance.” He had 11% stakes winners. WA was broodmare sire of, among many others, Buckpasser, who of course was an influential sire in his own right. He was also broodmare sire of Affectionately, Hoist the Flag, Crafty Admiral, and Gun Bow. He is in the pedigree of fellow TC winners Slew and Affirmed.

I read a breakdown of TC winners once in an article that read thusly:

Assault - Sterile.

Sir Barton, Omaha, Whirlaway - Pretty much flops.

Gallant Fox, Citation - Got a few decent horses but nowhere near expectations.

Secretariat, Affirmed - Steady good sires but not approaching themselves.

War Admiral, Count Fleet, Seattle Slew - Great sires.[/QUOTE]

Aside from Busher, whom did War Admiral produce?

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=WhiteCamry;8098481]
So pedigreequery tells us, that was either Shauna or Sir Z.[/QUOTE]

Sir Z. I stood him for a season- a complete disaster financially- and then he went to a local TB farm where he ended up colicking and dying, while owned by a local Vet, who apparently got him for a back bill.

The gentleman who owned the farm he went to was a fabulous guy- since deceased. He called me after they got the horse, and asked me “how the hell did you handle him?” as he was one tough bastard. I said, “have you ever danced with a fat man?” :lol:

[frugalannie]

I thank you all for furthering my education. Great thread!

And now a question, of course. What about the influence of “star” mares (I think also referred to as Reines de Course)? I have an OTTB that I use for sport. I quite like her sire lines for that, but as I reflect on your comments her tail dam line is relatively undistinguished. However, she has 17 star mares in her 5 generation pedigree plus one of those repeated for a total of 18 stars. What is the projected influence of something like this?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/golden+bangle

A more knowledgeable friend of mine says she’s bred to run all day…just not very fast.

And if this is too much of a diversion from the discussion, I apologize, but she does have Seattle Slew in her pedigree :winkgrin:.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8098747]
I thank you all for furthering my education. Great thread!

And now a question, of course. What about the influence of “star” mares (I think also referred to as Reines de Course)? I have an OTTB that I use for sport. I quite like her sire lines for that, but as I reflect on your comments her tail dam line is relatively undistinguished. However, she has 17 star mares in her 5 generation pedigree plus one of those repeated for a total of 18 stars. What is the projected influence of something like this?

http://www.pedigreequery.com/golden+bangle

A more knowledgeable friend of mine says she’s bred to run all day…just not very fast.

And if this is too much of a diversion from the discussion, I apologize, but she does have Seattle Slew in her pedigree :winkgrin:.[/QUOTE]

IMO your friend would be correct. Valley Crossing was a very good horse up to around 9 furlongs. A good looking horse over all bigger than most of the get of Private Account. A large hind end with a lot of hip.

Her dam sire Slew of Gold was a big good looking son of Seattle Slew. A horse IMO with a lot of presence. I have seen a lot of horses in the paddock over the years. But I remember Slew of Gold in the paddock of the JC Gold Cup very well. On his toes, neck bowed, picture perfect. Slew of Gold was most effective running 10-12 furlongs. He was owned by a partnership the consisted of mostly of the same people that owned and raced Seattle Slew. He went to stud with a lot of fanfare, did well enough but never came close to his daddy. Darby Creek Rd by Roberto was also a “2 turn” horse. As was King’s Bishop, even though the stakes race named after him at Saratoga is a sprint race.

Based on my personal knowledge of the get of the above I would bet you mare is a big good looking dark bay?

[frugalannie]

Thanks, Gumtree! What a great commentary.

She’s 16.1, well-conformed, very elegant (the description of Slew O Gold at the JC Gold Cup fits her well, and not just in my opinion) and solid bay.

Any comment about the influence of the star mares?

[vineyridge]

Until AP Prime finishes Rolex this year, Slew O Gold was the only Slew line horse with a 4* eventing descendant that I’m certain of. A son of his, Blaze O’ Gold was sent to the UK and sired at least one 4* competitor who did both Badminton and Burghley several times. Didn’t finish particularly well, but did finish. Horse’s name was Partly Pickled.

Just looked and Blaze O’ Gold had three 4* horses, including one that Carolyn Powell rode for New Zealand at the Lexington WEG.

I’ve been checking. Hereward the Wake who had a Slew daughter as dam was the sire of Phillip Dutton’s Woodburn who was also at the Lexington WEG in eventing. Slew son Tsunami Slew was the damsire of Sally Cousin’s Tsunami, who has finished Rolex. Slew son Synastry was the sire of Leslie Howard’s show jumper Midnight Hour–a pure TB who finished 7th in a 1.50 meter GP in 2006. Slew is damsire through Lupe Valdez of a horse who finished 25th at Rolex in 2004. Sea Salute, a good line in sport, has Slew as damsire. Sea Salute was the sire of Sea Lion (Sea Elephant), who ran Rolex a year or so ago, as well as of one of Sylva Martin’s dressage horses, whose name I have forgotten. Sea Lion, approved as a stallion by the ATA, was named by Tom Reed in his article in Horse Sport International as a TB stallion who would be useful in event horse breeding.

Slew was also the sire of Houston, a sire who stood for hunters; Gold Meridian was also liked for hunters.

That’s all I can find so far for Seattle Slew in the upper reaches of sport. I also found that he had over 1000 foals in his stud career and that about 50% of those made it to the races and something like 86% of those who did make it to the races won. So what happened to those other 500 Slew foals who didn’t race? Maybe that’s what the article I read about his inconsistency was talking about. I read that article in the old Pedigree Post years ago, but it’s not on the current version of the site now.

I know people like AP Indy for sport, but so far he’s only had four grandget that have gone into FEI level sport, and none have finished a 4* yet.

Slew O’Gold is by far the best of the Slew lines for sport to date.

[Shammy_Davis]

As usual the Paulick Report addresses the OTTB/sporthorse in the September 2014 issue.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/follow-the-line-popular-thoroughbred-sires-in-sport-horses/

This goes to support the very thoughtful post by Texarkana.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8099398]
Thanks, Gumtree! What a great commentary.

She’s 16.1, well-conformed, very elegant (the description of Slew O Gold at the JC Gold Cup fits her well, and not just in my opinion) and solid bay.

Any comment about the influence of the star mares?[/QUOTE]

Having many Reines is a good thing. :yes:

The ideal place to see them is along the tail female bottom line of the pedigree. That would mean that the broodmare of the horse is a direct descendent of exceptional mares.

From your girl’s pedigree, look at Private Account and Slew O’ Gold in particular. Both of them were exceptional individuals and multiple G1 race winners. Slew O’ Gold is even ranked as one of the top 100 race horses of the 20th century. If you notice, both descend from a long line of Reines. It’s no fluke that both were top racehorses.

It’s also no fluke that both did well as sires, although as Gumtree said, neither of them out-sired their fathers. In both of their defenses, though, their fathers were equally well bred and left incredible legacies.

[frugalannie]

Thanks, Texarkana.

And Vineyridge, your encyclopedic knowledge, which you share so generously, amazes.me.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;8099576]
Having many Reines is a good thing. :yes:

The ideal place to see them is along the tail female bottom line of the pedigree. That would mean that the broodmare of the horse is a direct descendent of exceptional mares.

From your girl’s pedigree, look at Private Account and Slew O’ Gold in particular. Both of them were exceptional individuals and multiple G1 race winners. Slew O’ Gold is even ranked as one of the top 100 race horses of the 20th century. If you notice, both descend from a long line of Reines. It’s no fluke that both were top racehorses.

It’s also no fluke that both did well as sires, although as Gumtree said, neither of them out-sired their fathers. In both of their defenses, though, their fathers were equally well bred and left incredible legacies.[/QUOTE]

I would respectfully disagree that SS was as well bred as Private Account. Not only was he out of mare who was a blue hen, she herself was a winner of over 600K. His sire, Damascus, has to be mentioned as one of the finest handicap horses ever to grace a track. Even if Hedivar needed to give him a hand

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8099669]
I would respectfully disagree that SS was as well bred as Private Account. Not only was he out of mare who was a blue hen, she herself was a winner of over 600K. His sire, Damascus, has to be mentioned as one of the finest handicap horses ever to grace a track. Even if Hedivar needed to give him a hand ;)[/QUOTE]

The comparison was between Slew O’ Gold and Private Account, not Seattle Slew and Private Account. But I will agree with you that most everyone would give Private Account’s pedigree an edge over Seattle Slew’s or Slew O’ Gold. But they are all of top class breeding.

And regardless, Slew still has good breeding to back up his success. :yes:

At this point, it feels like we’ve gone 100 rounds over Slew’s pedigree. It’s pretty clear you don’t think he’s anything special on paper and I don’t think anyone is going to change your mind. And there’s no problem with that. But it’s also pretty clear that there are many folks who disagree.

[ASB_Stars]

Thanks…but, I am not saying that there is nothing on paper to suggest that SS could have been a nice horse. What I am saying is that the production records of his dam line are not anything that would have you believe that he could be what he became. Good? Sure! World class? I don’t think so.

I guess your position is that he is a nice horse on paper. Mine is, too. But nothing that is definable in a quantitative way shows up on those papers. His sire was off to a nice start, but he only had two crops, so we’ll never know what else he could have done, with more and better mares.

Private Accounts breeding screams world class quality, and yet he was probably not a SS as a sire. There is simply that Je n’ais se quoit pas that happens, and you have magic. My point with this thread was simply that it isn’t always screaming at you on the page, and yet, it happens.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;8099769]
Thanks…but, I am not saying that there is nothing on paper to suggest that SS could have been a nice horse. What I am saying is that the production records of his dam line are not anything that would have you believe that he could be what he became. Good? Sure! World class? I don’t think so.

I guess your position is that he is a nice horse on paper. Mine is, too. But nothing that is definable in a quantitative way shows up on those papers. His sire was off to a nice start, but he only had two crops, so we’ll never know what else he could have done, with more and better mares.

Private Accounts breeding screams world class quality, and yet he was probably not a SS as a sire. There is simply that Je n’ais se quoit pas that happens, and you have magic. My point with this thread was simply that it isn’t always screaming at you on the page, and yet, it happens.[/QUOTE]

It has been said many times on this thread that SS’s pedigree/dam-line WAS good and strong. Slew didn’t sell as a yearling for a song, you know.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8099789]
It has been said many times on this thread that SS’s pedigree/dam-line WAS good and strong. Slew didn’t sell as a yearling for a song, you know.[/QUOTE]

I think that it has been discussed ad nauseum, but what makes a racehorse sire or dam is the ability for their offspring to make $$. At the end of the day, the fact that Brand X is gorgeous to watch run, and a handsome individual matters not. And, by the same token, if it gets to the finish line first, it ain’t ugly.

Private Account was a lovely example of money all over the papers. For me, SS isn’t. And I believe that is what I was asking about.

Here is a question for you- does anyone know what other horses sold through the sale that SS did, for what money, and what they made? I have no doubt that SS was the buy of the sale, but were there any “Green Monkey’s” ?