What makes someone a "Trainer" or Dressage instructor?

[Lunabear1988]

@Bellfleur absolutely, credentials are far from everything. I’m talking more about the type that really can’t ride around a 1st level test. Bad seats or hands. No idea how to get a horse actually through and over the back.

Whether you have the scores or not, isn’t what makes a Dressage trainer. It’s like another poster said, it’s improvement of the horse. It’s training. Even if you decide to just stay at the lower levels, the aim should still be to improve the horse a c rider. Some people don’t know enough to teach that.

[Lunabear1988]

@Rackonteur good luck. I hope you find a wonderful barn with an instructor you click with and happy horses

[Scribbler]

It’s also true that people will look at the posture of Olympic horses and try to mimic that.

From what I can deduce you can take a very hot forward horse that has naturally superb gaits, and you can ride Rolkur and on the forehand to achieve certain gait effects, if you are a highly skilled pro with impeccable timing and release, and if the rest of your training is basically correct. And if you have enough horses in the pipeline to cull the ones that melt down under this system.

However, if you take an ammie friendly horse under the guidance of a mediocre coach and low level ammie rider, and put this much compression on it, the result is generally a long term disaster. The horses get sour, they go short, and then they blow out the hind tendons and retire.

I don’t like the overbent foreward tilting posture of many high level competition horses, and I won’t buy any Anky branded products, even when they are very pretty and on deep discount!! But I do recognize that these upper level riders are getting effective consistent results within their discipline. I don’t like aspects of that discipline, of course.

When lower level riders try to mimic this by riding spur and crank or BTV or don’t understand lateral work as foundational, they mess up their horses and get nowhere.

Correct riding matters a lot for lower level horses and riders. The riders don’t have the finesse to be selectively harsh or cruel and then release. They ride like that all the time and the horses either get full or explosive. Also the horses don’t have the power or forward to keep offering impulsion under harsh hands. They need correct development.

I have watched this play out a lot in the past decade.

[Scribbler]

As far as European trained riders, there are very good ones in North America but there are others who walked away from that system because they weren’t being rewarded in it or finding a place in it.

[Lunabear1988]

@Scribbler exactly.

[Manni01]

I would agree with you, I believe though correct training is the best for every type of horse and every level of student…
I think the main problem might be that it takes its time… lessons are expensive and students especially the ones with expensive horses are expecting something for their money. but every step you skip will haunt you later on. Also if you don’t have a trainer who doesn’t know the correct way to proceed…

[outerbanks77]

@Lunabear1988

His hands are all over the place though and all his horses go continually btv with dropped backs, legs out behind. He doesn’t train with anyone, doesn’t show.

Yeah, those are some big red flags. If the instructor has horses in training, what does their muscular development look like when they’re just standing around? If the training is correct, the horse’s musculature will show it. If a horse is doing all the upper level movements, but has no topline, I would run far, far away. Same for a trainer who is not themselves regularly training with someone else.

[strangewings]

This is a wee vent. On topic, but not contributing much to the discussion. Former coach of mine is very well respected in this area. I overlooked some red flags b/c everyone seems to like her, though acknowledge she is “a personality”. Worked as hard as I could with her just to make sure it was not just me “not getting it” before walking.

She is up for a horsemanship award…all I will say is there is a reason she is so good at injury care and rehab. It is really tough though because the things she is good at, she is really good at. She is just really negligent at a lot of simple basic things too. It is a combo I had not encountered in this extreme before. I will trust my gut more next time.

[Scribbler]

The other thing is that coaches don’t stay the same their whole life.

That girl you remember as a shy working student 15 years ago might be a very capable trainer now in her 30s.

On the other hand, that coach who was fantastic and on the ball at 45 or 50 might be pushing 70 now, and years of TBI and injuries and stress are taking their toll.

Then there are the folks who shine brightly as a junior or in a specific situation where they have access to great horses, but aren’t really as good as their reputation.

Then there are those who work quietly and put together skills and teaching ideas that can have a big impact, particularly on a certain set of riders or horses, but don’t have a big public profile.

So yeah, it’s always good to have your eyes open and pay attention to what people do, not what they say or their reputation.

[RhythmNCruise]

This is exactly how I grew up riding. I had one year of riding lessons under my belt when I got a green-broke, backyard-raised hooligan is my first horse (he was cheap, cheap, cheap). I went from weekly lessons to two lessons a week with the resident trainer at my barn, who was actually VERY good with basics, was primarily a h/j trainer, but also did a good job of steering us into dressage and combined training. I learned to train a green horse because of her, and she was invaluable to me and still is the person I credit with my basic riding and training foundation.

But…there came a time as we started getting more serious about dressage and combined training that she actually came to me and said that I was moving beyond her skill level and if I wanted to keep progressing it would be beneficial to find a new trainer to at least start doing some monthly clinics with. And that’s what I did. For a while, I still took weekly lessons with my original trainer while taking monthly lessons with my new, more advanced trainer, but eventually there just really wasn’t much my original trainer could do or add anymore and she completely understood when I stopped doing lessons with her.

She was a wonderful coach though. She hadn’t ridden at the level I eventually rode at (which…was 1st level dressage and Training Level eventing…woo hoo…LOL), but she was very knowledgeable in how to work with a green horse (had an OTTB herself), how to put a good foundation on both horse and rider, and was just very well-versed in all aspects of horsemanship, management, health, etc. I’m always indebted to her.

[SAB]

@Scribbler

Then there are those who work quietly and put together skills and teaching ideas that can have a big impact, particularly on a certain set of riders or horses, but don’t have a big public profile.

This is my trainer exactly. There’s a reason I’ve ridden with her for 20+ years.

[EventingMaff]

As an economist, what continues to baffle me is that the lesson cost for a ‘hang the shingle out there no-credentials’ trainer and the competitive, qualified, credentials for years trainer is extremely similar.

It just feels like the price ladder in my area doesn’t correspond to quality at all. Riders just starting out as “trainers” seem to charge only a nominal difference from very established trainers. And all prices seem to be in the $75-125 range (with $125 being the top of the top)

[Heinz_57]

@EventingMaff

As an economist, what continues to baffle me is that the lesson cost for a ‘hang the shingle out there no-credentials’ trainer and the competitive, qualified, credentials for years trainer is extremely similar.

Tangentially related, but honestly I don’t know how newbies are still getting into riding considering how much lessons cost these days. Although in my area the no credentials trainers do tend to undercut the market a tad to increase volume, it’s still not a cheap thing to ‘try out’. Better for the wallet to take up a musical instrument or more mainstream hobby/sport.

[Scribbler]

Captive market. You have to use the trainers at your barn. People choose barns by location, price, and amenities.

Difficulty comparing services. You have to go trial lesson at another barn to know of that trainer is a better fit.

Lack of consumer education.

High emotional and time cost of switching service provider. You may need to move barns.

And the fact that even grown adult women tend to revert to nervous 11 year olds in lessons, and can’t evaluate or question the coach.

[BatCoach]

@Scribbler

I think it’s probably not accurate to say that the low end mediocre or craycray incompetent instructors are in it for the money. They don’t make that much. They are in it for a sense of selfworth, they are generally very emotionally invested in it. Often too invested. That’s why they do behave badly or non professionally, blow up if questioned, hold grudges, run down other trainers, etc.

Very true! I can recall a past Coth thread about why people stay with bad trainers which had many similar points to this one. One theory that stuck with me since I have seen it played out IRL many times is that sometimes these mediocre instructors had a glimmer of hope and promise in their past.

Maybe they were successful in the show ring with one horse decades ago, or were invited to ride with a BNT, or were a working student in Germany for a summer. Whatever the cause, they were never able to replicate that success. The stars just did not align for them to get the ride on that next great horse, or they had a bad fall and missed a season and became disillusioned with showing. They always have some excuse. The end result is that they put all their eggs in the “I want to be a pro rider” basket and came up short. So their dreams have been dashed and to pay the bills they have to take on students and clients that they deem unworthy of teaching (off-breeds, shallow pockets etc). OR, they find a student with deep pockets and hope that they can milk this newbie AA’s wallet and have them buy a fancy new prospect.

In a way, these mediocre trainers can be even more dangerous than the blatant ‘backyardigan’ uber-beginner trainer. They can talk the talk, but their holes are just a little bit better hidden. The possessiveness of their students and constant undermining of any other trainer or rider (all the way from local ‘competition’ to Olympic level talents) really just tells of their bitterness and insecurity. If a student starts to show too much promise or talent they start to harshly and rudely dress the student down in lessons.

The sad thing is that these people usually DO have some knowledge, enough to be a useful instructor to a re-rider or entry level AA. But their attitudes stink. They are trapped in a career of their own making by their own limitations.

There is a huge market out there for a beginner AA instructor who wants their students to build solid basics and play happily and safely in the lower levels. The problem is, not many trainers want a cadre of re-riders toodling around at training level. I guess there just isn’t much prestige in it. It is much easier to walk around with a chip on your shoulder reminiscing about your glory days 30 years ago and how you could have been a big time Grand Prix rider “if the system wasn’t rigged”

Can you tell I’ve had some not-so-great trainer experiences? LOL

[Lunabear1988]

@BatCoach you hit the nail on the head! Clearly, we’ve ran into instructors cut from the same fabric.

One that I rode with, mostly as a beginner dressage rider, was great at the basics. She had been a working student at a few big barns. She talked so much crud about her students. One lady was taking like 5 lessons a week! This trainer would trash this lady to anyone walking by. She was bored of teaching training level students. But I don’t think she knew how to teach anyone beyond that. I eventually left because after a few years, she would be constantly texting during lessons, disinterested. And I realized no students were ever improving. It seemed like she would purposely try to rattle her student’s confidence.

Years later I rode with a qualified trainer who pushed me and believed in me. The lessons were much more intense, but gosh my riding really improved.

Then I lost a horse. I was in a low spot. My first trouble was finding anyone with a horse to ride. I found a trainer who’s social media seemed so positive and correct with the basics. They said all the right things! I wasn’t in agreement with everything I saw, but the positivity sucked me in. At first it was fun! Then about six months in I got tired of hearing how every other trainer in the area was awful compared to them. Any horse they got (from all kinds of professionals) was apparently “abused.” The reason they didn’t get results in the show ring was because they had to re educate all these horses! Oh and the judges were biased.

If I asked a question and they didn’t know the answer, the rest of the lesson got pretty dark. They also decided they were switching up their training theory, without telling us. So we were getting yelled at for doing things we literally were instructed to do a few months prior! The last straw was a clinic with a well respected GP trainer. The instructor literally argued with them. This was about BASICS. It was embarrassing. I never went back. Thankfully that all manifested in a year.

I’m much more aware and picky about who I take instruction from now. The results are clear too. And like Batcoach said, who wants to work with someone with a chip on their shoulder! They won’t actually let their students improve past a certain level.

[Lunabear1988]

That last instructor actually started drilling me on stuff prior to that clinic. She told me “You don’t want to just work on that at the clinic, do you?” I replied that, “if that (whatever it was, transitions or something) was what I needed to work on at the moment, then yes!” I saw no point in trying to pretend I was something I wasn’t at a clinic. I was there for education. She acted like she was worried I would embarrass her.

The clinician truly helped me more in two sessions then that person did all year. The instructor and the other students, wow. The arguing, the side teaching (talking over the clinician to contradict them to her students) and honestly just poor riding was embarrassing to me. Oh the instructor talked about she thought the clinician was breed biased. Nevermind the fact that this clinician trained two off breeds to GP, and has helped others do the same!

The clinician actually told me privately, “to run as fast I could” away from that program. I did and even with less frequent lessons (but better quality) I’ve improved.

[BatCoach]

Glad you were able to find a great clinician who helped you see the light!

I get it, being a riding instructor is hard. It is a small, competitive industry where everyone knows everyone and grudges can last for decades. We all know how hard it is to make a living doing anything with horses, and teaching an AA 1 lesson a week on a horse who is not in full training just does not fit into many business plans (if said professional even HAS a business plan… many don’t).

So I can understand why instructor’s metal health suffers. Its hard to get help or a break when you have no health insurance and no days off. I think that is one reason I stayed too long at a toxic place. I knew she was struggling with depression (although she would never admit it) but since she refused to take care of herself or seek treatment, her erratic mood swings just became too much for me to take. She would spiral into negativity and lash out at people and I just could not take it.

[Lunabear1988]

@BatCoach yes! The one I mentioned was struggling outside of her barn life and I thought things would pass but things just got worse and strange. And seriously thankfully that the clinician really highlighted that it wasn’t a good situation. Best money I ever spent all around, even just for a wake up call.

It’s a really hard industry. I get it. But I think being positive, honest with yourself and working hard is what helps get some people beyond the lower levels. At this point, if a trainer has no mentor/coach of their own, I pass. It’s the easiest red flag to spot.

[Scribbler]

One of the easiest ways for people or groups to bond is through complaining, feeling victimized, or bad mouthing others.

It can make you feel like you are privileged and intimate with someone when they gossip with you about a third person. Or when they tell you their long sad story of why the world has been cruel.

Unfortunately that’s a rather unhealthy basis for a friendship. Also it is rather tricky when that person has a position of authority.

You can’t question your coach when they say “heels down!” You need to accept that they are always correct in their riding and horse are instructions or else find a new coach.

But then the instructions can slide into examples can slide into venting about individuals and grudges. As a student you aren’t in a position to contradict them any more than a child can contradict a mother that hates the world and trashes the neighbors and relatives.

Many women have grown up in situations at work or school or home where complaining and gossiping are how you bond with other women. So I think we may be susceptible to think it’s normal and not see until too late that we are in a toxic situation.

Keep in mind too that almost all horse pros have multiple TBI going back to childhood, and this can predispose to depression, anger management, lack of a filter, impulsiveness, and an inability to focus and plan. Depends on the person. I’ve seen huge personality changes after TBI in friends.