What should we know to watch FEI indoor drivng?

Somehow my non-horsey partner found FEI’s YouTube channel or something and started putting the indoor four in hand driving on, and we’ve both kind of gotten into watching it. But I know next to nothing about driving and he knows far less. How do we learn more about the vehicles and horses and things?

And are there still any bigish CDE events near Philadelphia? I think I went to the Laurels one many years ago but looks like it ended. Would be fun to see something similar in person. I remember an exhibition at Devon years ago that was really excited to be up close for.

The only biggish one in that area is in NJ at nj horse Park in October and due to some timing issues it’s one of the smaller ones. There are 2 organizations offering cdes, the ADS which split from USEF about 4ish years ago (and may not survive that decision) and USEF. ADS events are smaller and focused on the lower levels, so pretty much like lower levels everywhere, mostly slow and boring, occasionally terrifyingly bad decisions and a few competitors who are experienced, but in the lower levels as they bring along a horse. USEF shows are generally big, especially in Florida in the winter (like everything horse). They have training to advanced and usually a ton of entries so there’s plenty to watch, and those upper levels are fun to watch (and drive, although it is as mentally and physically exhausting as anything I’ve ever done, but still exhilarating and addictive).

A short primer on combined driving:
Classes are split as follows
Training
Preliminary
Intermediate
1* (FEI only, this is just dressage and comes)
2*/novice advanced
3*/advanced

Like eventing, drivers have to qualify to move up

Then you have Ponies and Horse divisions, with addl classes for small ponies and VSEs (very small equines, aka minis, American shetlands)

Then you have
Singles (1)
Pairs (2)
Team (4)

Singles can only drive the 1 horse in all phases, pairs have a spare, so typically one of the 3 is a one or two phase specialist. Teams have up to 6 horses they can swap out. It’s all declared in advance though, you can’t make changes

So if you were looking at an entry list it may say things like IH1, IH2, IH4 to describe the division aka intermediate horse and 1 means single, 2, pair, 4 team

So now that your brain is about to explode, let’s describe how it works…

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CDEs (which is not indoor driving), consist of 3 phase, like eventing. Dressage, marathon and cones. Like eventing, the big events go over 4 days with days 1/2 for dressage, day 3 marathon and the last day is cones.

Dressage is in a larger arena than ridden dressage and the letters are identical. I believe everyone is in an 40x80m arena now. The singles have been using it for several years but teams and pairs held on to the big 40x100 ring while drivers and the FEI negotiated the fine details of the test. Like eventing, the score is penalty based, but that’s where the similarities end. The dressage penalty score is not a true inverse, it has a coefficient applied, so a high 40 is a low 70% The judges are also deathly allergic to good scores. I’ve watched 200 ponies for in the world championship and mid 70 percentile won, so if it looks good and gets that kind of score, everyone is celebrating back at the barn!
At the lower levels it’s ok to use one carriage at all levels so many of those drivers will use their marathon carriage in all 3 phases. At intermediate it’s permissable but usually not done. At advanced it’s not permitted, you must use a presentation carriage and the wheel width can’t be less than 138cm wide for singles (wider for horse teams/pairs), so ALL of them are minimum width and not wider (when we get to cones day this will make sense).

At the highest level singles have to do collected, working and extended trot and canter, extended walk, shoulder in, rein backs and halts. There’s no cantering in dressage in pairs and teams, but they have some ones handed driving that takes my breath away

Marathon is why we do this sport. It’s very complicated so trust me, that what follows is a summary: the course is really 2 components. First is the overall track which is typically about 8-12km overall with shorter tracks for lower levels. It has a target or optimum time with a 3min window, too fast, too slow, HUGE penalties. The person on the back is in charge of managing that. The course will have km markers for each of the divisions that have their own track and depending on the levels and whether it’s a horse or a pony, they have their own target kph. We also have a program which calculated all this out.

Then within the track there will be up to 8 “obstacles”. Each obstacle has it’s own timer, usually you enter/exit through one timer but not always. This is where speed and strategy matters. Within the obstacle, which is usually pretty solid, there will be up to 6 gates lettered A through F, with a red letter and a white one. YOU MUST GO THROUGH THEM SEQUENTIALLY, with red on right, white on left. You cannot go through a higher letter to get to another, meaning if the direct path to A required you to cross the plane of B, you better find another way because it’s an elimination if you do. However, once you have gone through A properly, it’s considered “dead” and you can go through a dead gate as many times as you want (backwards and forward). The highest level does all the gates, lower levels do fewer gates. A good course designer generally managed to make A thru D inviting for training/prelim because all the easy/intuitive paths require you to go through E or F, but those gates only matter if you are doing intermediate (up to E) or the advanced levels (all gates).

In Marathon, we use a highly specialized carriage. This carriage is designed to go fast and be very stable on turns. My carriage has brembo brakes, which are Porsche brakes. It has a turntable/ fifth wheel brake and rear brakes. Most of the really top level drivers also have front brakes. You can have a feature known as delayed steering, and that comes on both the presentation and the marathon carriages. You can have something called telescoping tips which allow the shafts to compress as the horse turns into them and you can have a fairly sophisticated level of suspension. Mine has coil over airbag with leaf springs. You also have protection over the front wheels that’s designed to protect them when you crash into a post. Because leaving paint behind is just how it goes. Everybody chunks up against them at some point on course. The only exception is if there is a ball on any portion of the obstacle, when you knock that ball off the post, that’s two penalty points, so you do like to avoid those.

Each obstacle is timed and assigned penalty points with the lowest amount of penalty points going to the fastest time which means unlike eventing you cannot finish on your dressage score. You will always have the largest amount of penalty points in the marathon phase.

The final phase is cones. This is designed to ask similar questions as show jumping. You have a course of cones numbered to 20, although there’s a lot more than that because we have ABCD elements (zig zag and waves) and oxers which are four cones set apart and is considered a single element. The cones also have balls on them and each ball knocked down in an element counts for three penalty points. The only good news here is that if you knock down two balls in an oxer it’s still just three penalty points. But you can incur 12 penalty points in those ABCD elements. This phase also has an optimum time so as long as you don’t knock balls down and you stay under the minimum time you are considered double clear. Ties are broken by dressage score if somebody ends up tied in final score, but that is virtually unheard of because of Marathon having so many penalty points. Also, the optimum time is just brutal at the advanced levels, the ponies have to go faster than the horses because it’s considered they they can take tighter lines, but that’s not always true. It’s actually a point of discussion in the sport now that the courses are getting so complicated and the turns are so tight and the time and the speed are so difficult to meet, that people are concerned about carriages flipping. And that’s because at the higher levels you must use that presentation carriage. It has some consideration for these kind of turns but it’s not built anything like a marathon carriage and it will tip over much easier than the other carriage. And the reason why everybody is focused on minimum width is because once you get to the advance levels, the width between each cone is what’s referred to as fixed. Advanced single ponies go at 160 cm with 155 permitted for a certain number of cones. These are called skinnies. You can have a carriage wider than 138 cm. There’s no rule against it. But that skinny is still going to be 155 cm and it’s an extraordinarily narrow margin of error to navigate at speed. Again at world championships I’ve seen them have no double clears. It’s not unusual for somebody to win on six penalty points in cones. For the lower levels that are done under usef or ads, they have a prescribed additional width based on your wheel measurement. So if your prelim and your Marathon carriage is 127 cm wide at the rear wheels, the course will be set to 127 cm plus x more centimeters wide. And not surprisingly it’s much wider at the lower levels and the cones get narrower and the speed goes up as you go up in levels.

At the end of it all, lowest penalty points wins, but the good thing about this sport is it is incredibly data driven and you have so many opportunities to compare your performance to your competitors and people in other divisions. We are required to have at least three and typically at the FEI level have five judges, most who are foreign, so we get three to five dressage sheets per show and each obstacle is shown on the score sheet so you can see exactly how you’re doing against somebody else who did just as many gate s as you did.

Also, it’s more fun than legally allowed. My only regret is that I didn’t start it 10 years sooner.

This is the marathon carriage, and you can’t tell it, but my navigator (gator) is on the back, but she’s tucked up practically under my armpit and over the axle, because her main job is keeping the wheels down as I whip around that post on my left

This is a presentation carriage

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This is what breaking the world record in dressage looks like

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And as you’ve figured out, this is all pretty different from indoor world cup driving. That’s pure speed AND usually those teams are “indoor only teams”. Sometimes some horses cross over like Boyd’s great horse Bajnok. Very rarely are entire teams doing cdes and indoors. The horses have to be so fit to do marathon, and yet be so responsive and trained to do dressage. It takes a rare horse to do all well (Bajnok is that horse). Most of the rest of them that try to do both end up not being stars in the dressage arena come cde season.

But the same general rules apply for the obstacles except the entire track is timed. The cones are also set very wide because there’s so much drift on that surface. But they are going through a sequence of gates and the above sequence rules apply.

We do have these classes in this country, they are typically called derbies. I did them back when I was still in the lower levels and they are a ton of fun, but even with my pony who can do quite a bit, I could tell this was making him confused…

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It’s not exactly close, but if you find yourself in Ocala in Mid march, you can watch live oak international which is the best competition for spectators and competitors alike. Plus as you’ve figured out, combined driving is VERY appealing to non horsey people. Also it’s at the farm of the world record holder above, and that’s Campbell’s money, so it’s only just a little bit stunning :rofl:

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:star_struck::heart_eyes:
Thanks for that link.
Chester is to Elegant as Boyd is to WOW!

I only wish I’d been able to enlarge to fullscreen.

Wow, DMK, thank you so mich! Super helpful and also fun to read. I feel like it should get pinned as a reference somehow.

I’m curious about the horses. It seemed like a lot of the teams were all Lippizans, which was kind of a nice surprise since I thought they were pretty rare, or mixes of WBs. Plus one spotted pony. And some it looked like one of the wheelers was much larger than the other, which I didn’t expect, guessing they just moved similarly enough that the height didn’t matter.

DMK- this is very interesting and imformative. But I am confused about a couple of things you said:

I know Brembo for making brakes for motorcyles and cars (especially RACING motorcycles and cars), so it is not surprising the make brakes for carriages, but how does Porshe, a CAR manufacturer factor into it?

What is the differece between “optimum” and “minimum” time in this context? Usually a “minimum time” is something you want to be OVER, not under (as in “speed fault time” in lower level Eventing).

Brembo is the brake manufacturer used by Porsche, I’ve had people who don’t know diddly about horses or carriages, but they are car buffs, and IMMEDIATELY recognize the B.I.T. logo on the brakes. Remember, the person who got interested is a non horsey person, I’m trying for relatable here :wink:

Optimum was the wrong word, meant to use allowed. Here’s a worksheet for our time targets on course. Km 1-8 are only for the team and our time management, but the final number matters. If I come in under minimum or over allowed we incur penalties, and they pretty much knock you out of competition. If I’m over the bottom number, I’m eliminated. Presumably that would only ever happen if I was trying to do an on course vehicle/equipment repair because there was a compelling reason not to be eliminated (and sometimes there is). The ground jury would forcibly require you to retire if you horse(s) were that slow for whatever reason

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Got it. I am not involved in the Porsche world AT ALL, but I am/have been VERY involved in the motorcycle roadracing world, and, to a lesser extent, in the Vintage sportscar racing world.

I had no idea Porsche used Brembo brakes.

As I understand it, the carriage brake are in fact motorcycle brakes :grin:

But EU models since the both those carriages were imported. Sometimes that matters, sometimes it doesn’t, but I like to schedule all my servicing when I’m down in Florida where there’s a few people who do this for a living and have all the necessary parts online.

But that’s the first thing I learned about combined driving, you need to factor overseas shipping into just about everything. Sigh…

The lippis are common in driving, much more common in indoor season, but definitely across the board. Actually some of the brown ones are lippis too (Boyd has some he uses for cdes). One of the drivers has a big rangy French or orlov trotter on his team. 3 of the horses will be dead out galloping and that one is still trotting. I literally can’t see anything else in the team when he’s on course. Bram’s paint has been around forever (driving horses have longevity). The Swiss driver uses Freiburgers, a Swiss breed I’ve fallen in love with, they look a little bit like oversized Welsh ponies.

You see a lot of kwpn harness and dressage book horses as leaders in the team phase because they bring the movement. The video of CW is all KWPN with not a huge amount of harness blood. But driving really uses a variety of different breeds, if they can deliver three phases and not be backed off by obstacles then you go for it. In ponies it’s even more all over the board.

But a fun fact about Boyd’s team. That right leader is petite and just a bit different looking. That’s because she is US superstar Katydid Duchess. She’s won the single horse US national championship quite a few times, been the highest place us horse (6th) at world ch and is known to be a marathon machine who thinks dressage is for wimps (but can still pull out a good test). She’s by a Welsh pony out of a Welsh x TB mare. She was supposed to be a pony (probably hunter pony at that) but she honied up to 15’1. She has never driven in a team or pair until boyd bought her for his indoor team because she is the ultimate speed machine and watching her on course you can tell she’s having the time of her life.

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The Royal Winter Fair used to host an exbition of indoor driving as a crowd pleaser and we were invited one year with the team I worked for. It was us (driven by Thomas Erikson, Chester, and Jimmy Fairclough and I think Josh Rector. (all of which were driving warmbloods, KWPN and it was their CDE string)

It was all for show and a bit of prize money. My claim to fame that long weekend was the music. They used my techno dance CD :rofl:

I don’t think the Royal hosts it anymore. (the horses I worked for it it wayyyy back in 2003)

Sidenote: Chester does the indoor FEI and he has a string of horses in the EU that stay there. This CDE team gets shipped back and forth.

And our disk brakes were Ferrari. :wink:

How do you operate these - with your feet? Because your hands seem pretty busy already…

Really appreciate your overview.

Yes, I have 2 brake pedals on my dash. I also had to put a pad between them because I’m braced so hard against the dash to stay IN the carriage that it was hard to pick up a foot to put it ON the pedal. With the pad I just have to slide the foot over.

The rear brake purpose is intuitive, but the 5th wheel/turntable brake stops the carriage from drifting on high speed turns and if you are fortunate enough to have a pony who can accelerate on tight turns, you actually need to use both brakes going around a turn. It makes no sense, but if I ride both brakes around a turn, he actually increases speed because the carriage doesn’t pull him off the track.

Every time I learn something like this, I’m eternally in awe of top drivers. My brain regularly explodes in the developing athlete clinics I attend.

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He hasn’t done indoor in a few seasons and sold the indoor team to a newer driver that’s in this year’s rotation

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