What size cart for a 12.2hh Welsh Pony?

[Ysabel]

I am looking to a buy a cart for my pony. I can only afford to buy a second hand easy entry (although I would prefer a Meadowbrook). I have never learned anything about sizing a cart because the Friesian I use to drive all came with accessories included (Meadowbrook, Vis-A-Vis, etc.). I know only a little about driving - I self taught myself to drive the Friesians both single and double … and lived. But I enjoyed it tremendously so I am quite excited to have my very own little Welsh pony now to drive.

I am on my own in figuring out what size to buy. There are a couple of people in my area who drive, but it seems to me that their carts seem much to low for the horses/ponies they are driving so I have been wary of seeking their help. The same applies for the people selling the used carts. I am really not comfortable driving a cart that seats me with my eye level below the back of the horse (am I correct to assume this would be dangerous?).

So what measurements would I look for in an easy entry cart for a 12.2hh (maybe 12.3hh) Welsh Pony?

[DiamondJubilee]

Check out the ADS site as they have a good article on fitting a carriage:
http://www.americandrivingsociety.org/DB_shaft_table.asp
Hope this helps and good luck

[Ysabel]

Thanks - that is exactly what I have been looking for. The only problem is I don’t know what most of the parts are.
i.e.
Height from Ground under Shafts at Back-band Tugs
Width between Shafts at Back-band Tugs
Length from Back-band Tug to Shaft Tip
Length from Back-band Tug Stop to Trace Hook
Distance from Breeching Staple to Trace Hook

Is there a link to a really good diagram of a cart that anyone could share? Google is not woking out for me I am afraid.

[Plainandtall]

I don’t think it’s dangerous to have a low seated cart- it might be annoying because your lines want to slip down their rump- and you can’t get a nice straight contact with the bit without holding your hands up like a prize fighter- a low seated cart is going to be easier to get in and out of- and it’s also going to be a lot harder to flip if you had an incident on uneven ground or made a turn at speed. A taller cart is certainly nice and much more stylish- but I don’t think it’s safer.

At the bottom of this page is a nice diagram of the parts of the harness and an beautiful high riding cart. I’m assuming the it’s the back band tugs which are puzzling you- tug is an annoying word because you’d think that tugs are things you’d pull with- but the tugs are just the loops to hold the shafts up off the ground- not part of the pulling, they are positioned on the harness very similar to where stirrups would be on a riding saddle.

http://carriageassociation.wordpress.com/category/reference/harness/page/3/

[Ysabel]

Thanks Plainandtall - it was the “tugs” that were confusing me. Thanks for the link - but I would love to find a diagram of a cart naming all of the parts of the cart.

The reason I was thinking that a low seated cart would be unsafe is because I worry that the pony would be in my field of vision - I really want to be able to see over the pony. But good to know that it is not considered unsafe or incorrect - it may give me more options.

[Chewbacca]

The ![](eadowbrook for my 12.2 hackney has 36" wheels, and 60" long shafts. I don’t recall the width between the shafts, but I want to say 24" near the tip and 30" or so at the back… Not sure off hand.

EZ entry’s do sit lower, since the wheels are usually only 19" tall. (I think “horse” size EZ entry’s have 24" wheels) You can replace them with higher wheels, if you want to sit up higher.

Here is our hackney with his original cart, which was a MINI easy entry that we brought to welder for modification. It still had the 19" wheels on it, we made it taller under the seat, by welding additional steel to it, so it raised the whole seat & shafts up ( we put longer shafts on it, too), to be level with the pony. It worked as a good alternative until we saved up for a meadowbrook. After we bought the MB, we had the cart “unwelded” and it now back to being a mini cart for the minis, with the shorter shafts back on. lol.

[IMG]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e393/KShai/Chewie%20Luke%20and%20Dixie/DSC_0023-1.jpg)

And here is the meadowbrook:
[IMG]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e393/KShai/Chewie%20Luke%20and%20Dixie/show1small.jpg)

It may not seem like it, but you can still see pretty well, even driving a big horse, with a low cart. So I wouldn’t worry about your visual range with a pony. You’ll get used to it quick.

[Chewbacca]

The ![](eadowbrook for my 12.2 hackney has 36" wheels, and 60" long shafts. I don’t recall the width between the shafts, but I want to say 24" near the tip and 30" or so at the back… Not sure off hand.

EZ entry’s do sit lower, since the wheels are usually only 19" tall. (I think “horse” size EZ entry’s have 24" wheels) You can replace them with higher wheels, if you want to sit up higher.

Here is our hackney with his original cart, which was a MINI easy entry that we brought to welder for modification. It still had the 19" wheels on it, we made it taller under the seat, by welding additional steel to it, so it raised the whole seat & shafts up ( we put longer shafts on it, too), to be level with the pony. It worked as a good alternative until we saved up for a meadowbrook. After we bought the MB, we had the cart “unwelded” and it now back to being a mini cart for the minis, with the shorter shafts back on. lol.

[IMG]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e393/KShai/Chewie%20Luke%20and%20Dixie/DSC_0023-1.jpg)

And here is the meadowbrook:
[IMG]http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e393/KShai/Chewie%20Luke%20and%20Dixie/show1small.jpg)

It may not seem like it, but you can still see pretty well, even driving a big horse, with a low cart. So I wouldn’t worry about your visual range with a pony. You’ll get used to it quick.

[goodhors]

The advantages of a taller seated cart are several more than just the better view ahead. Wood is a bit more forgiving in bending and not breaking, if not totally dried out. Bigger wheels roll easier over bumpy ground, though the width of the tread and kind of rubber on the wheel, can be an issue. There is a type of rubber that is kind of D shaped, with the flat side against the wheel in the metal track. It can dig into dirt more, so it will be harder to pull in soft ground. Good on hard surfaces, dirt roads, with little friction surface, like a racing bicycle. The other kind of rubber is squared, with a flat surface on the ground. Not as hard to pull on soft ground, because usually it doesn’t cut in. Also rolls well on harder surfaces, and I don’t think the added rubber surface creates much more in friction to pull. Doing CDE this might be an issue, or a great many miles in a day, but otherwise, not really anything to consider much.

The other big feature for me, is the main weight of a wooden vehicle, is in wheels and axle. This stays low, even with taller seating. Lower center of gravity is HELPFUL in keeping both wheels on the ground in most driving situations. Springs of seat also help put passenger weight downward, onto that axle again.

Say what you like about the little easy-entry types, their only bonus is cheap price and light weight. They tip over in a HEARTBEAT, if there is rougher ground, erratic action from the animal. I have seen it happen, mini hitched, seat only about 24 inches from the ground, they went over a bump and it THREW the driver off. Then we had to deal with a runaway mess. Metal, cheap carts also have a huge problem with metal fatigue, parts breaking clean off when least expected. Know a NICE horse who got his hind legs badly scarred when one wheel came off so cart hit him in the rear. Basket parts just tore his ankles up bad. Those folks never drove again, didn’t trust the vehicle or any vehicle after that.

These kind of carts are also rather less than comfortable, with no springs, ineffective springs, sometimes no seat cushions, and no seatbacks for comfort on longer drives. Most folks don’t choose to sit on a backless stool, if a chair with a back is available. Gets hard to stay comfortable over time with no backrest.

So while you have the extremely light weight of the easy entry type carts for small animals, you also have a lot of minus features to consider. I don’t know which to consider the worst feature, tipping over or breaking.

Actually, to be picky, the tug is used in two places on a harness, if it has a collar. The short pieces on hames that traces buckle into, are properly called short tugs on a single harness, and long tugs on a Pairs harness. The pieces holding shaft up, can be called tug loops, shaft holders, or a variety of other regional names.

Height from Ground under Shafts at Back-band Tugs–Measured from the flat ground, to the shaft holders/tug loops of the hitched animal.

Width between Shafts at Back-band Tugs–This is the width at the narrowest point of the shafts. On a properly sized vehicle to the animal, it is a close fit, and should be right where the shafts go thru the shaft holders/tug loops, at the girth area of the animal. Knowing this width keeps you from getting too narrow a vehicle, shafts would be rubbing the sides all the time. Shafts can be widened or narrowed A LITTLE, especially wooden shafts. Metal shafts can develop metal fatigue, break right off if this widen/narrow stuff is done much.

Length from Back-band Tug to Shaft Tip–You want the shaft tip to come to the point of the shoulder on your animal, when harnessed correctly. So measuring a vehicle that fits him, or measuring the animal himself, should give you the distance needed on a vehicle you are looking at to buy. Measuring the vehicle, no animal present, should be from that narrowest part, which will seat at his backband, tug loop, shaft holder, on to the shaft tip, to see if it is a correct length to end at your animal’s shoulder point. Disclaimer, if shafts are very curved, tips are strongly hooked down, modern vehicle short shafts, this measurement won’t work.

Length from Back-band Tug Stop to Trace Hook–Measuring from saddle of harness, back to his singletree or hook of vehicle, that trace attaches to. Some vehicles don’t have tug stops on them. I think on the above, they “meant” to say tug loop. I have never heard of a Tug Stop on the harness itself, but someone can correct me if I am wrong. Could be just blanking on that right now. Tug stops go on the shaft, to hold tug loops in place while slowing or stopping.

http://www.drivingessentials.com/search_DE/products_result.php?ID=51330

Distance from Breeching Staple to Trace Hook–Breeching Staple is the metal loop on the underside of shaft, to put your Breeching straps thru to anchor them in place for horse halting the vehicle. Could also be (wrongly) called a Footmans Loop. Kind of like a handle shape, lets the breeching strap go thru, not slide forward or back on the shaft. By either name, a very handy little item.

http://www.drivingessentials.com/search_DE/products_result.php?ID=51323

You measure backwards from the Breeching Staple, to the singletree or trace hook on vehicle, to have an idea of length you need for your animal. You will then know what animal needs in length to fit well, when looking at vehicles. You CAN move the breeching staple forward or back, to give your animal a better fit in the angle of pull by the breeching strap. I want my breeching fitted snug, not tight, so when I say “Whoa”, he stops, vehicle stops NOW. No sloppy straps that let the vehicle “catch up” AFTER he stops to slap him in the rump with full loaded weight. Surprises like that are NOT NICE to horse and may cause him to jump FORWARD, first step of a runaway!

A narrower rumped horse may need his Breeching Staple moved back, after a large rumped horse was previously used in that vehicle. Narrow horse has a shorter breeching, so his optimum strap length in adjusting would be set back further. Folks who use various animals in the same vehicle, can have a couple Breeching Staples on their shafts so the straps can be set correctly for each animal.

The Mischka Calendar is one of the best tools for looking at nice turnouts, correctly fitted Traditional and Modern CDE vehicles and harness. Here is their site, go the the Driving Horse Calendar and under that (lower page) click on Detailed Images to see “Turnout of the Month”.

http://www.mischka.com/shop/product.php?productid=17086&cat=249&page=1&featured=Y

[mayfair]

Our pony about 12 hands has a basic easy entry with 24 inch wheels. It’s CTM brand. It’s an affordable starter cart for training. I didn’t want to invest in an expensive cart since the pony wasn’t broke to drive when we got her.

[Chewbacca]

Definitely EZ entries can be good starter carts. I was very reluctant to start my QH in a meadowbrook, but I figured wood is wood and can be replaced. Fortunately nothing ever happened.

But I would very much suggest strongly that the EZ be a “starter” only, maybe just in the arena, or in limited fashion on roads/trails. And ultimately, save up for a wood vehicle. Much better option, if you can’t get a 4 wheel carriage of some kind.

Just my opinion because I love my meadowbrooks… and I’ll be spending the next 10 years saving for a marathon