Just interested in what others thoughts would be about seeing such popular stallions as Sandro Hit, Weltmeyer, Jazz, Voltaire and any others that might occur to you doubled up in a 5 generation pedigree. What stallions would you not want to see used in that way?
PennyG
I’d be leery of Jazz once, I can’t even imagine doubling up on it!
[QUOTE=Serious Leigh;7161861]
I’d be leery of Jazz once, I can’t even imagine doubling up on it![/QUOTE]
why’s that? (i am not a breeder, so just curious)
p.s, will be watching this thread because i’d like to learn more about wb breedings…
I wouldn’t want to see Landgraf (can cause straightness of leg), Farn (difficult temperament) or Pilot (hot and difficult temperament) too close together or multiple times in a pedigree.
[QUOTE=beowulf;7161913]
why’s that? (i am not a breeder, so just curious)
p.s, will be watching this thread because i’d like to learn more about wb breedings…[/QUOTE]
Jazz temperament;
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2013/08/31/jazzing-dressage-history-jazz-offspring-bred-elite
Calypso II
[QUOTE=skydy;7162096]
Jazz temperament;
thank you for the link! i’ve only ever heard great things about him, which is why i was curious.
I wondered about Voltaire also and have observed that you don’t see it being done much if at all, but the Dutch are as not big with in/line breeding as other breeds it seems.
Haven’t I read somewhere that Voltaire produces very, very careful horses? If so, inbreeding may not be a good thing if his jumpers become too careful. Doesn’t too careful slow them down a lot?
[QUOTE=omare;7162152]
I wondered about Voltaire also and have observed that you don’t see it being done much if at all, but the Dutch are as not big with in/line breeding as other breeds it seems.[/QUOTE]
I’d be careful with Sandro Hit only because he trends towards an insufficient hindquarter.
I have no qualms whatsoever about doubling up World Cup I through IV kids and I’ve done it myself with my mare (World Cup I via Weltmeyer/Wolkentanz) to a stallion with World Cup III and got a very nice filly from it.
Fascinating thread.
But if you do NOT want to see a stallion multiple times in a pedigree, you have to say WHY.
For instance, why not Calypso?
^ agreed!! i’d like to learn!
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7162293]
Fascinating thread.
But if you do NOT want to see a stallion multiple times in a pedigree, you have to say WHY.
For instance, why not Calypso?[/QUOTE]
Calypso was a big, strong, HEAVY horse. You would only be safe doubling him up in a pedigree if you knew beyond a doubt your mare produced slim, trim and refined! He had freaky jumping talent and produced exceptional talent in his kids, but he was heavy.
Here is an article on him:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/08/calypso-ii/
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7162293]
Fascinating thread.
But if you do NOT want to see a stallion multiple times in a pedigree, you have to say WHY.
For instance, why not Calypso?[/QUOTE]
There was an interesting thread about Calypso II a while back on these forums. He is especially of note since there are so many nice Holsteiner stallions available to us by Contender. He brings in both topline issues and fetlock issues when linebred. I believe Reece mentioned that it is not as much of an issue to see the Calypso brothers both in the pedigree, it is just more concerning to see II more than once.
If I recall correctly, I remember reading somewhere that Voltaire himself was not approved until later on because of a crooked front leg. I have also heard that line breeding on him could cause both over carefulness as well as the potential for less than desirable front leg conformation.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/great-stallions/?gs=1424
“He was a bit small (just 162 cms) and had a problem with one hoof, and he was rejected by the Oldenburg licensing commission.” from (http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/great-stallions/?gs=1424)
I’m linebreeding on Voltaire this year. It’s the maternal grandsire on the sire side, and grandsire of the dam of this future offspring. We’ll see what happens:)
Yeah … Jazz, Ferro … no. Temperament is too important to me. Some Dutch pedigrees shock me a bit. A young stallion here in Aus which is Vivaldi/Ferro and being marketed at amies who will all rush out to breed to the next big thing without understanding that pedigree and what it means …
I like Donnerhall twice on a pedigree 
actually I have to disagree strongly herer
the dutch horses are all very strongly inbred - to the 2 full brothers Furioso 11 and Mexico, and they all sex balance each other with Farn, Amor, Ulft through male and female lines - this is their strength and why they have been so successful because they are inbred on these lines
Sezuan is inbred to Farn several times
Lissaro is inbred to Calypso 1 and 11 - it doesn’t mean you are going to end up with a heavy horse
Linebreeding has to be done carefully - you need a line through a son and a daughter or two or more daughters. you do not want to just see sons of a line or you lose sport potency and ability
the most powerful configuration you can have in a pedigree is full brother and sister - almost all the top stallions have this and this is why sandro hit and donnerhall are so good together. the sire Lukas in sandro hits dam line is a full brother to Landtanne in Donnerhall - 5 x 5
it would be ok to breed Jazz if you had a jazz daughter and a jazz son but would prefer it a bit further back.
all the early holsteiners like Loretto and Farnese were very inbred and this sets type and sport ability and is why their influence is still felt today in pedigrees
lauries crusader and Ladykiller - who is 3 x 3 to three quarter brothers are both highly inbred as well which explains their phenomenal success and why lauries crusader can produce grand prix horses in the first generation
linebreeding produces good horses - total outcrosses do not work unless both sides are inbred - see Landgraf and Ramiro for examples of outcrosses that work
Paulamc
Oops I need to pay better attention to the Dutch pedigrees!
[QUOTE=paulamc;7163131]
actually I have to disagree strongly herer
the dutch horses are all very strongly inbred - to the 2 full brothers Furioso 11 and Mexico, and they all sex balance each other with Farn, Amor, Ulft through male and female lines - this is their strength and why they have been so successful because they are inbred on these lines
Sezuan is inbred to Farn several times
Lissaro is inbred to Calypso 1 and 11 - it doesn’t mean you are going to end up with a heavy horse
Linebreeding has to be done carefully - you need a line through a son and a daughter or two or more daughters. you do not want to just see sons of a line or you lose sport potency and ability
the most powerful configuration you can have in a pedigree is full brother and sister - almost all the top stallions have this and this is why sandro hit and donnerhall are so good together. the sire Lukas in sandro hits dam line is a full brother to Landtanne in Donnerhall - 5 x 5
it would be ok to breed Jazz if you had a jazz daughter and a jazz son but would prefer it a bit further back.
all the early holsteiners like Loretto and Farnese were very inbred and this sets type and sport ability and is why their influence is still felt today in pedigrees
lauries crusader and Ladykiller - who is 3 x 3 to three quarter brothers are both highly inbred as well which explains their phenomenal success and why lauries crusader can produce grand prix horses in the first generation
linebreeding produces good horses - total outcrosses do not work unless both sides are inbred - see Landgraf and Ramiro for examples of outcrosses that work
Paulamc[/QUOTE]
I agree that linebreeding can be a VERY powerful tool for improvement, however I’m not sure I’m clear on where it needs to come from.
For instance, let’s say I’m linebreeding to Stallion X. This will be intentional. So, while I would prefer to have a variety of horses who have been sired (or grandsired) by X, and would like it on both the top & bottom of the pedigree, I don’t think I would care if it came through sons or daughters, much less full sibs.
Paulamc, can you explain why you think this is important? Genetically, I really can’t see why.
Also, if one is linebreeding, how important is it to see the same characteristics you are breeding for in the relative of X?
For instance, let’s say a grandson of X (call him Z) has many of the attributes of his grandsire, but is more mellow. He has everything you want to improve in your mare. Your mare, who is abit sensitive, but one hell of an athlete, has X in the 3rd g.
Would you do this breeding?
BTW, total outcrosses can work really well. Here’s an good example:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/secretariat
