What to cross a National Show Horse with?

[rascalpony]

I would like to note that this is all theoretical. I have no intention of breeding my mare. I am not a breeder, I am an amateur dressage rider / eventer / foxhunter. I posted this solely out of curiosity.

Now that that has been noted; what is a good cross for a National Show Horse when you are looking for a dressage horse or fox-hunter? I know that the latter is not typical for NSHs, but I ride mine in both events and she loves them. She would make a nice eventer too (used to event) but she has trouble with showjumping.

I’m asking because out of pure curiosity, I’ve been doing the research. I like looking at bloodlines and possibilities, even if I’ll never do anything with them. My mare is an NSH. Dam is from Polish Arabian lines (sire is Charadd) and her sire is a Saddlebred from the Stonewall and Wing Commander lines. All of that is useless since I’m not planning to breed her :lol: What is a good cross for a sporthorse-style NSH? I ask because I’ve never found anybody who’s crossed an NSH with anything else; they’re technically cross-breds themselves anyways. Maybe an Anglo-Arab? I would think that might add some unnecessary extra fire considering that’s both Arab and Thoroughbred. Maybe a pony cross would be good? When I think about it, most crosses sound like they are out of left field.

Again, not planning to breed at all. I’m just curious as to what a an effective NSH cross might be because for me it’s fun to think about.

[kasjordan]

A big solid Morgan for a sporthorse.

[rascalpony]

That makes a lot of sense. I wonder why I didn’t think of it, since everyone is convinced that my mare is a Morab until I show them her papers. Poor Morgans, they are such great horses but I don’t often hear much about them.

[cb06]

Friesian. I’ve seen really nice Xs with both pure Arab and pure Saddlebred that have turned into successful dressage horses…

[JB]

A Friesian isn’t at all where I’d look for a Dressage horse or Foxhunter. While you could get lucky, so many of them simply can’t develop the stamina needed for either of those, have trouble with heat, and more. They just aren’t designed for those things.

I too would look at a Morgan, or a WB known for crossing well with Arabs. Or, you go back to one of the crossed breeds, preferably a sporthorse type Arab, but there actually some very nice Dressage-type ASB stallions.

Outside of that, a TB is probably the only other breed I’d consider.

[ladyj79]

A national show horse.

[cb06]

…or other light draft type…
http://www.georgiangrande.com/01%20Champion%20GG’s.html

[Jackie_Cochran]

If your goal was show jumping I would say Holsteiner. I have often wondered the past few years what that cross would do! Come to think of it a ASB dam for the NSH instead of an Arab dam would be better for this (for dam line jumping ability.) Anyway, it would be an interesting cross.

For dressage? It might be extremely interesting to cross her with a Luisitano (sp?).

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=JB;8243573]
A Friesian isn’t at all where I’d look for a Dressage horse or Foxhunter. While you could get lucky, so many of them simply can’t develop the stamina needed for either of those, have trouble with heat, and more. They just aren’t designed for those things.

I too would look at a Morgan, or a WB known for crossing well with Arabs. Or, you go back to one of the crossed breeds, preferably a sporthorse type Arab, but there actually some very nice Dressage-type ASB stallions.

Outside of that, a TB is probably the only other breed I’d consider.[/QUOTE]

I’ve done several Friesian crosses, and all have been great at dressage or eventing. While the purebred Friesians struggle with stamina, the crosses seem to have a better time with it. I know a couple of Friesian/Arab crosses that are doing CDEs (requires a lot of stamina), and a few that I bred are eventing. I show a Friesian cross mare in dressage, and she’s the energizer bunny.

If OP was using a mare of less stamina, I would probably say, look to something lighter, but she’s starting with a mare that is two very light (and generally HOT) breeds, so Friesian could be a consideration. I would look carefully at the mare (and any stallion she uses), my bigger concern would be canter quality. Arabs tend to have poor canters for dressage, and some Saddlebreds too. Friesians seem to either have a great canter or an awful one - not much in between.

For foxhunter or eventer, I’d also consider a sport type Morgan - I’ve known several Morgans who were great eventers, and they seem to be sturdy and great riding horses.

OP, so much depends on your mare. Is she hot? Is she very light in the bone? Has she ever been bred before, and if so, what did she contribute to the offspring? Are you breeding for dressage, or foxhunter? Those are two very different goals!

If you are breeding for resale, I’d say don’t do it - that won’t be an easy cross (no matter WHAT you cross her with) to sell until it has a solid performance record.

[rascalpony]

OP, so much depends on your mare. Is she hot? Is she very light in the bone? Has she ever been bred before, and if so, what did she contribute to the offspring? Are you breeding for dressage, or foxhunter? Those are two very different goals!

If you are breeding for resale, I’d say don’t do it - that won’t be an easy cross (no matter WHAT you cross her with) to sell until it has a solid performance record.

Not planning to breed her. She’s my dressage horse and in the middle of her show career, so I don’t really have any plans to breed her ever. I’m probably not knowledgeable enough to breed a horse, and I’m too afraid I’d just add to the unwanted horse whirlpool. I posted this out of curiosity, because I like to study breeding theories and possible outcomes as a hobby

She is very mild for a NSH, but she’s spooky. In her younger days she was a time bomb and would bolt; today she is much better but still spooky. That’s probably another good reason to keep her unbred. When she isn’t scared she is quiet, quiet, quiet. She’s quite big-boned; people think she is a Morab from the old-style lines, rather than an NSH. She does come from the older, heavier Saddlebred lines though.

Are you breeding for dressage, or foxhunter? Those are two very different goals!

They are! I think the type I would theoretically breed for is more the eventing type; able to do mid-level dressage nicely and with the temperament and interest to also be a successful fox-hunter. My mare herself is excellent at both things. She would make a nice eventer if she wasn’t quite so afraid of the showjumps :o That is the spooky personality coming in. She’s fine cross country, with excellent jumping form, and particularly good at dressage.

[horsetales]

For a foxhunter or eventer to improve the jump, look at Irish (if you ever get serious about breeding). Playland Farm has been producing nice event/foxhunter dressage horses crossing their Arabs and NSH to their Irish Draught stallion. An Irish Draught Sport Horse would also be nice and keep a lighter build and maybe a little more sensitive/hot if you like the NSH spark more

[Jmarcan]

I would tend to stay within the Arabian framework and look for an Arab stallion who showed and produced talent either in the dressage ring or over fences depending on your aims…some of the Frenchbred racing Arabs are quite talented over fences and there are a select few dressage-oriented Arabian stallions with movement and elasticity who might meet your needs.

[cayuse]

I would stick with an Arab cross.

[JB]

I know some Friesian crosses come out very well - I know a very nice one doing 3rd Level and I think schooling 4th. Friesian x Arab.

I’ve seen other pretty darn nice ones, including 2yo (3? time flies) Friesian x Knabstrupper. Time will tell about her heat and fitness issues as she’s just not old enough, but conformationally she’s really nice.

Someone here has a F cross that they’ve had to work REALLY hard with with get fitness on her.

I simply would not choose a Friesian to breed to with an eye towards either of those sports, especially Eventing. I would buy one who was already competing so I knew he was capable of the exertion, but there are too many other breeds more appropriate for this particular cross and those particular disciplines to risk it, IMHO

[Foxtrot_s]

I was mulling over some similar thoughts recently. Was thinking that if Americans had started fifty years ago to produced a sporthourse capable to doing well in the Olympic disciplines, they had good basics to begin with.

Bill Steinkraus, back in the day, said that the TB x Saddlebred made the best jumpers and the Saddlebred brings a lot to the table with its flexibility, heart and leg lift. Of course, the TB speaks for itself in the area of athleticism.

But as I am a stickler for form over a fence, I would like to be sure that the Arab influence did not produce a leg hanger, or star gazer type of jump.
Those helicopter jumps are just horrible. It would add soundness and endurance.

So - this hypothetical breeding - I’ll second the Irish, for versatility, or a good minded dressage bred for dressage, or a Holsteiner with Cor de la Bruyere to produce form over a fence.

Firstly, though, I would like to be sure that the mare had enough good qualities to make the endeavour more likely to succeed, and that included temperament and innate talent.

[MidnightWriter]

I’m no expert, but I would say a TB of good personality and other positive characteristics. Or a Saddlebred x TB. NOT a Saddlebred-draft cross, which is all a Georgian Grande is, and IMO the guy who started that breed had his breed origin information all wrong. Evidently he did not research ASB pedigrees, since the foundation sire of the ASB was a TB, not a draft!

I might also think Appendix.

I would not go Friesian. A Friesian is so totally the opposite of an Arabian that i can’t see the point. I’m not putting Friesians down at all. I just can’t see adding Friesian to this mix.

Irish Sport Horse another good possibility, IMO.

I would say Trakehner, but I have only known two (well, one is a Trak-TB cross) and they are crazy hot.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=MidnightWriter;8244610]

I would not go Friesian. A Friesian is so totally the opposite of an Arabian that i can’t see the point. I’m not putting Friesians down at all. I just can’t see adding Friesian to this mix.

Irish Sport Horse another good possibility, IMO.

.[/QUOTE]

Well, interestingly, in Europe, they’ve been crossing Arabs and Friesians - Arabo Friesians. Irish Sport Horse is also a very different type of horse, pretty much the opposite of Arab. The point, the reason people cross to Arabs in SO many breeds is because the Arab is refining. Pretty consistently. They add stamina too. I think almost every registry has infused a bit of Arab blood at some point in history

I’d go back to the OP and try to figure out what they are breeding for. Fox hunter, I would NOT go Friesian. Dressage, and it might be worth considering (and I would NOT go Irish for a dressage type).

Reality - probably cheaper to buy a young horse on the ground and get what you really want:lol: Breeding is such a gamble, and generally more expensive then people realize.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=cb06;8243526]
Friesian. I’ve seen really nice Xs with both pure Arab and pure Saddlebred that have turned into successful dressage horses…[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t breed an NSH to another breed built for trotting with a long back.

I like the Sporthorse Morgan idea.

[rascalpony]

I like the Sporthorse Morgan idea.

As do I! I think if I ever did breed her, a Morgan would probably be the way I would go. I really like them as horses (I’ve ridden a few and liked almost all of them). Why they didn’t pop up in my head originally is a mystery. I also like the Irish crosses - the foals at Playland Farm are really something! I’ll definitely keep an eye on them if I ever buy another horse, because I like what I saw. The Friesian is also an interesting idea but I’m slightly sour on Friesians; I boarded a Friesian/Morgan cross once and he was a nice horse but so, so dumb.

Bill Steinkraus, back in the day, said that the TB x Saddlebred made the best jumpers and the Saddlebred brings a lot to the table with its flexibility, heart and leg lift. Of course, the TB speaks for itself in the area of athleticism.

I have seen this cross - they make very nice sport horses! I imagine that they could be quite hot though, not that that is necessarily a bad thing for the upper levels. It’s definitely a cross I would buy for myself in the future, because I know how well it can go.

My mare naturally has nice form over fences; I think it might be the Saddlebred. She’s pretty short-backed as well. Her biggest issues conformation-wise are that she has a fairly straight shoulder and slightly narrow feet (strong and well-sized though). There are also a few conformation issues which I may not be aware of. Here are 2 photos of her for fun. (Please ignore photo quality & my bad posture Trainer is working on that. The first photo makes her look more modern Saddlebred-y than she is; she was in the middle of spooking during that photo! You won’t get a lot on her conformation in these, but at least you can see her.)

Picture 1

Picture 2

Thank you all for the input. I really appreciate hearing your opinions and advice. It’s really interesting to see the thought process of what makes a good match. Like I said, I’m not planning to breed her anytime soon, but I loved learning more about the process of choosing a breed and a stallion

[D_BaldStockings]

I would go with a Saddlebred stallion, either 5 gaited or sire of 5-gaited horses because they do not want sewing machine, or long backed, or straight shouldered/pasterned horses in the 5-gaited discipline.

in my opinion the following would be good crosses, but not knowing what percentage your mare is the foal might or might not be registerable NSH.

If you are concerned with pretty, the first is a possible, and has a good temperament.
https://www.asha.net/members/stallion.php/106450S

https://www.asha.net/members/stallion.php/099203S

https://www.asha.net/members/stallion.php/097560S

https://www.asha.net/members/stallion.php/108950S

Knowing nothing of your mares lines (every Saddlebred is probably going to have Stonewall and Wing Commander and Supreme Sultan in their pedigree nowadays) I can’t comment on her temperament, though she appears to have nice bone and straight legs.

Many black and/or pinto breeders haven’t always concentrated on performance ability, including a working temperament, so that would be my focus with this mare for a ‘Sport’ foal.

-Of course you are speaking hypothetically.

A Saddlebred TB cross will get you athleticism out of this world, but you may get very intelligent, very driven, ‘opinionated’ for lack of a better descriptive, and reflexes beyond the average human response time… a great horse, but not an ammy ride.

If you truly like pinto, I would suggest going with a black Holsteiner -x jumper and hope for pinto: if you get black, that is usually a saleable foal, too.

This horse
http://www.w2holsteiners.com/w2-stallions.html

or this
http://www.nolimitfarms.com/uncategorized/home-of-capone-1/

Without a show record on the mare at a decent Jumper level, or as an Eventer, you will not be marketing to people interested in taking the foal to competitions, it would be too much risk of the unknown for most buyers.

It is fun to guess, of course.