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What to do for IBD-like issues? Update, better then getting worse again

Horse Care
#41

I saw yet another vet today who came to do the fall shots etc for the barn. Some of the other boarders have used him for complex things, so I asked if I could pick his brain re behavior, gut, SI, etc.

He said that omeprazole can cause a personality change in people and horses, so some of the response I got may have been he just felt better mentally during that time. He has seen some of horse’s behaviors from stomach acid related issues, particularly the reluctance to canter, but he’d put it low on the list of possibilities.

I guess CSU didn’t keep their standing CT machine. Which is too bad because this vet thought that might do me a lot of good at really taking a look at the neck and SI.

Horse likes aloe juice and will eat ranitidine so I’m going to keep on that route for now, then next will be cutting out soy. And maybe a trip back to the sports med specialist vet.

#42

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8882233]
He used to walk a lot in turnout because he was a fence walking nutcase. That didn’t help his gut either! (I know…not exactly the exercise you are talking about).[/QUOTE]

You are right, that type of exercise won’t help and probably hurts. Fence walking/running is a sign of stress and stress never makes anything feel better.

#43

I meant to add to my above post that we’ve had a lot of “doesn’t get along with others” retirees come to our farm as well. They might have a rough few days but group turnout (I mean a minimum of 6-7 horses) in a large grass pasture (10 acre minimum, better 15-20) seems to cure this problem 100% of the time. But I fully realize that type of turnout situation is next to impossible to find in the standard training barn. I’m not helping you much with my posts!!

#44

Actually if it comes to needing to just send the horse somewhere for 6-12 months to be a horse and see what happens, that info is very helpful as I’d probably have to send him to another area…too expensive here and too hard in the winter.

#45

Today, he was lazy. Another warm day. But he started up without much back talk. Then I took a walk break, he took a pee, and then he didn’t want to move. Just balking and kicking out at my aids. Really sour. Also balking at the doorway. Give it some time and whenever we got too stuck, just walked on and did a leg yield or circle. Eventually, he poops, then he is ready to go. I even put my whip away because it was getting me nowhere. Did some cavaletti. He was so nice and hunter soft. I only cantered if he offered it over the small jump so as not to fight on the canter departs, but I was able to pick up the trot several more times with just the lightest squeeze.

Ugh…as soon as I’m ready to call the vet because he is acting like something hurts then he poops and farts and is fine.

He had a look on his face like a pig in sh** after the ride. He was so pleased with himself. That was the first time we have cantered a jump (granted it was only like 6" tall) since his layup without any yee-haw kind of moments.

If I can just figure out his issues, he will be a super horse.

I dunno…wonder if I should try just putting him back on Prozac if diet changes don’t work. Not like we are going to a recognized show anytime soon…and our first shows will probably be pile of poles no-judge, maybe cross rails if I feel ambitious…that’s like 6 months away at least.

#46

Have you had him checked for hind gut ulcers? I’ve had two checked and it was relatively easy - ultrasound of the colon and a fecal occult blood test. If that seems promising, at least there are specific steps to take - misoprostol, sucralfate, and a diet with no long-stem forage.

Have you had an allergy test done? I’ve had two horses with food issues - a corn allergy and an alfalfa allergy. One had skin issues, the other pyloric ulcers.

#47

My vets don’t think they will be able to see well enough for hind gut ulcers or that there’s a real accurate test. We did try sucralfate in the past, but it didn’t help. He has lived on Equishure for over a year and a half now.

I haven’t done allergy testing. It’s on my radar if I can’t just figure out a diet that works by elimination.

Although I am bleeding money on vets, and medications, and new everything (PLEASE STOP GROWING, HORSE!!), I am going to get him trainer rides 1-2x a week for a while to see whether someone else can keep us moving forward and making progress or whether his behavior slides after he gets used to a new person and trainer winds up being no more effective than me. In the latter case, I might still pursue some lessons, but we are taking it a step at a time. The first ride was today, and it was simple…just feeling him out, trying to get some happy w/t/c. He was fresh but had some balking issues. Trainer’s impression was he was acting like a horse who didn’t want any pressure on his belly and who would get sour anticipating discomfort. He’s quite sour to the legs. But once you can ease him into going and doing his job, he’s a happy, fun guy. How do we get him to be like that all the time?

So, we are going to work together to see if we can figure out how to make him comfortable and get him to respond appropriately to the go forward aids. I am just too (emotionally?) exhausted at this point to do it all myself anymore.

So, I might go broke trying, but this may be a make it or break it kind of moment with his behavior. I told the trainer what I’m doing for his gut now and my plan over the next weeks, and they are on board with it. So, we’ll see.

Hasn’t really been long enough with ranitidine and aloe to make a judgment on that yet, but he only had one poop during trainer’s ride, and he was able to fart and trot at the same time.

I’m getting him used to eating alfalfa pellets again, and so next is transitioning out the soy. He likes the Platinum basic supplement samples, so for his vit/min needs I could try that. However, it contains soy flour. I think I will eliminate soy altogether first for at least a couple of weeks and then consider introducing Platinum as a regular thing. His condition is super right now so he might not really need a RB or other vit/min on top of the HorseTech custom supp. anyway (?)

#48

My big, long gelding would not poop and move when he was younger and under saddle. At first I tried aggressively to get him to move but then decided to pick my battles but I didn’t have the other behaviour issues or multiple poops that you do along with it. It took until he was about 7 years old and he could continue to canter and jump if he was pooping but with me insisting.

If we are walking now and he has to poop, he will stop 3 times and then poop. It is quite a production when he poops, big huge back lift and grunting.

A few times, before I figured out what was going on, I really thought my horse was lame…turned out he had to poop but he was so uncomfortable he felt lame while being ridden.

Maybe with all of his other issues it truly causes him discomfort. Good luck, they are a puzzle and it sounds like yours is a big one with lots of little pieces.

#49

Ok it’s been a week now on aloe and ranitidine and if anything, he is gassier, grumpier, and has slightly softer more acidic smelling poop. Ugh! The piles do pass a little bit more normally (not as much of a fast, sudden single giant plop).

We did get a new load of alfalfa in this week…third cutting, historically from this supplier low sugar high protein, and horse thinks it’s crack. Never seen him so excited for alfalfa before. Don’t know if that is contributing. Honestly thought it would help things!

From the sounds in the barn in the evening, even the horses not on alfalfa are pretty gassy at the moment.

#50

[QUOTE=Jungle Monkey;8890732]
My big, long gelding would not poop and move when he was younger and under saddle. At first I tried aggressively to get him to move but then decided to pick my battles but I didn’t have the other behaviour issues or multiple poops that you do along with it. It took until he was about 7 years old and he could continue to canter and jump if he was pooping but with me insisting.

If we are walking now and he has to poop, he will stop 3 times and then poop. It is quite a production when he poops, big huge back lift and grunting.

A few times, before I figured out what was going on, I really thought my horse was lame…turned out he had to poop but he was so uncomfortable he felt lame while being ridden.

Maybe with all of his other issues it truly causes him discomfort. Good luck, they are a puzzle and it sounds like yours is a big one with lots of little pieces.[/QUOTE]

I don’t really care so much if he stops to poop. It’s when he stops because he thinks he might have to poop in 10 minutes that is too much!

#51

Ummm…now he is eating poop! Went for a ride this morning. Thinking he was going to be lazy so just wanted to hack out some. Went around the trail on the property with another boarder. Went into one of the more open outdoor arenas. Other boarder’s horse had recently pooped in there. My horse goes to sniff the poop. Ok, whatever. Then he won’t move away from it. I try to get him to move away, he rears. Then spins. Then back to shoving his face in the poop. Then starts to eat the poop!! Kept rearing whenever I asked him to leave it. Had to get other boarder to help me some from the ground get him away. WTF???

I got him moving some at the other end of the arena, but he would throw temper tantrums trying to get back to the poop. After a little while, I went to the indoor to ride out the attitude (more enclosed, I have bigger cajones in there).

He did have a good bit of gas still, was fresher than I expected considering our evening ride yesterday. But as far as pooping goes, it was more normal this AM than it had been yesterday.

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

#52

I would let him eat the poop to be honest (only sort of kidding) as he’s clearly trying to populate his stressed gut with healthier gut bacteria that he needs. Is he on a pro and pre biotic, and multivitamin suited to your area and hay type?

He gets fed hay 4x a day I think? Need to make sure he’s got enough long stem forage too, as that’s another cause of coprophagy.

Another cause is not getting enough nutrients. If he’s on ranitidine his stomach acid is being reduced so he might not be able to digest his food enough. That could lead to hind gut fermentation going wonky = gas = pain.

Time to call the vet (again!) I’m afraid.

I lost a horse to recurring small colics, sour attitude and all the issues you’re having so I vote do something else now, as you may be looking at irreversible gut damage.

#53

Ok, so stop ranitidine? and do what? Not being snarky…really…what do I do??

Recap of feeding -

He gets breakfast flake of grass hay and flake of alfalfa (early, like 530-6am). Then his concentrate meal and then they turnout around 7.

Then 3-4 flakes grass hay in turnout around 9. They now feed him in a rubbermaid trough so he will eat more, sleep in it less.

Lunch is at 130-2 and he gets 3-4 flakes grass hay, flake alfalfa and his second concentrate meal.

Each of the “grain” meals above right now are:

  • 2+qt soaked beet pulp (they tend to feed a pretty heaping scoop)
  • 1/2lb TC 30 RB
  • Custom HorseTech supplement, which is aimed at better balance re the grass hay plus extras: Nutramino, biotin, MSM, magnesium, copper, zinc
  • Equishure
  • 4,000 IU Vitamin E

Breakfast grain also containing ranitidine right now.

In the evening, around 6-7pm, he gets another flake alfalfa, approx 9lbs grass hay (I try to gauge by weight…feedings earlier in the day tend to be by flake regardless of the bale) (+/- depending on how much he has left over from lunch), and a snack of a light 2qt beet pulp, couple handfuls of alfalfa pellets, ranitidine, aloe vera juice, and this is also when I will taste test any new things.

I texted regular vet. His response was, “I’ve seen horses eat poop before. Must have found something tasty in there!” Um… yeah, not any help!

I’m really worried about him (horse, not vet)!

#54

Don’t remember if I mentioned, but he was dewormed a week ago with Equimax.

Needs his teeth done, and I have an appt scheduled for the 28th. Not horrible, but he’s starting to get food stuck in the molars from time to time. Would have gotten him floated already but had some trouble getting the appt scheduled.

#55

I wouldn’t worry about the poop eating. It is not uncommon, and ime, is more frequent this time of year.

Personally, I’d stick with the ranitidine for at least a month. Give it a good solid trial.

#56

I was not so worried about the poop eating so much as his attitude about the poop eating! Cue severe temper tantrums if I do not let him eat the poop, go back near the poop, etc. You’d think there would have been a bucket of peppermints in the middle of the arena taunting him with the attitude he had. He is generally not a rearer under saddle.

I mean, it was kind of extreme! Actually, I tried to distract him with a peppermint to get him to move along and he preferred poop to peppermint!

#57

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8892081]
Ok, so stop ranitidine? and do what? Not being snarky…really…what do I do??

Recap of feeding -

He gets breakfast flake of grass hay and flake of alfalfa (early, like 530-6am). Then his concentrate meal and then they turnout around 7.

Then 3-4 flakes grass hay in turnout around 9. They now feed him in a rubbermaid trough so he will eat more, sleep in it less.

Lunch is at 130-2 and he gets 3-4 flakes grass hay, flake alfalfa and his second concentrate meal.

Each of the “grain” meals above right now are:

  • 2+qt soaked beet pulp (they tend to feed a pretty heaping scoop)
  • 1/2lb TC 30 RB
  • Custom HorseTech supplement, which is aimed at better balance re the grass hay plus extras: Nutramino, biotin, MSM, magnesium, copper, zinc
  • Equishure
  • 4,000 IU Vitamin E

Breakfast grain also containing ranitidine right now.

In the evening, around 6-7pm, he gets another flake alfalfa, approx 9lbs grass hay (I try to gauge by weight…feedings earlier in the day tend to be by flake regardless of the bale) (+/- depending on how much he has left over from lunch), and a snack of a light 2qt beet pulp, couple handfuls of alfalfa pellets, ranitidine, aloe vera juice, and this is also when I will taste test any new things.

I texted regular vet. His response was, “I’ve seen horses eat poop before. Must have found something tasty in there!” Um… yeah, not any help!

I’m really worried about him (horse, not vet)![/QUOTE]

I’m sorry - this must be really stressful. :frowning: Thanks for the feed recap too.

I think you’re right to be worried, and I think your vet is being a bit lackadaisical. I’m sorry if this was already covered but: can you get a second opinion?

Your diet looks pretty good! I would ask Rod to add some probiotics to your Horsetech blend, or get a bottle of Ration Plus. Read this article for an idea of what to look for in terms of dose - I know the TC 30 has some but not nearly enough: http://www.thehorse.com/articles/15094/probiotics-worth-the-price

I also use FeedXL.com which is great if you have your hay analyzed, but pretty useful even if not.

Ranitidine works best when given in doses 8 hours apart, but I don’t know what the latest thinking is. By feeding it about 12 hours apart, you might end up with a massive surge of acids 8 hours after each dose. Ask the vet - it’s just another stone to look under for answers.

And of course improperly chewed feed from bad teeth can cause colic, so great you’re looking into that.

Lastly he gets about 8 hours of turnout - with other horses? It’s an opportunity to “self medicate” by eating other horse’s poop, which might not be a bad thing really, as I said! The tantrum almost seems like “knows” that he needs to sort his gut out.

Good luck!

#58

Sorry if I missed it, but is he on anything with MSM? One of my geldings is super sensitive to MSM and will constantly gas colic while on it. Stopped the MSM and he was back to his normal self.

#59

Yes, the HT supp has MSM. I put him on it months ago (June) because of his propensity for muscle soreness. Unfortunately, I have a pretty new bucket of the supplement right now, as I just ordered a refill. The gas was not bad when we started it, so I’m not sure if that’s the cause? He’s always had some poop issues, but the gas colic like behavior started late August and was one reason I put him on GG, because it’s one of his ulcer symptoms (he doesn’t have many of the “classic” signs, as we learned from when we scoped him in the past).

He is on solo turnout. He can go out with his old buddy somewhat soon, in theory. He was put in solo due to coming back from injury. Then buddy got injured and was laid up. Now buddy is back out, but not ready for any shenanigans, so both are solo still for now. He cannot go out with the horse whose poop he was really into today. Not going to be compatible with that herd.

I have reached out to horse’s vet at CSU. Sent her an email last night when he was sour but not yet eating poop. Basically, it said his neck seems to be doing better but something is still very wrong and would she consider coming to look at him again?

His bodywork vet (recommended by CSU vet) was the one who suggested giving ranitidine a try (so, third opinion!). She is really the only one who thought his belly was a high priority issue. She said that 3x a day is best but has seen some horses do well on 2x a day and thought it was worth trying. The problem is that unless I want to go feed him at 10pm (I don’t!), doing 3x a day is not really feasible.

And then for the FOURTH opinion from the vet who did his shots last weekend, he thought based on a description of behavior (everything except the poop eating) was that gut probably lower on the list of possibilities but I could try probiotics again.

I’d have to order probiotics separately at this point. If I go with Platinum Paks to try their wellness for a month, I can have them add probiotics, or I can have them send me a tub individually. Or, I’d have to order separately from HT. Or, I could go to the local store today and get probios.

#60

Do you give the ranitidine in a syringe or just in the feed? We gave buttermilk or yogurt with ranitidine (really, with most oral meds) at the equine hospital for GI bacteria health.

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