What weight marathon carriage is optimal for a 13h?

I’m thinking we are ready for a marathon vehicle. However, being that both my husband and I are not “small” people . . . are we delusional thinking we can compete in CDE’s with a single 13 pony?

I have seen the previous threads on this subject, but really wanting people’s advice about recent makes and models of vehicles . . .

I have found a few nice used ones, but some seem to be heavier than I’d like (380 pounds), but on the flip size, the “cob” sized marathons would also do double duty with our 15h cob.

the cob sized carriages may be a stretch for the 13h pony, but at least we could move up with the 15h cob. Currently the pony is our show pony, the cob is retired to be a broodmare. We could always bring her out of retirement . .

I just don’t want to get a “Small pony” marathon vehicle and then still come to realize we just can’t compete with one 13h pony as a single. I see so many do it with 12h-13h pairs . . . just no singles.

An I delusional?

I think a 13H pony is going to need a smaller vehicle than a 15H one, but much depends on your “competitiveness” in doing CDE things.

We plan to have ENTIRE load, vehicle, plus people, any spares, equal or less than 80% of pony weight. Maybe weighing the animal first, will give you an idea of what you have to work with. I am not big on just a weight tape, it takes no consideration of pony frame, leggy, stocky built, heavy or light boned. Stocky built animals tend to have more muscle on their frame, can move bigger loads than the leggy, slender pony of the same height. Our local elevator will weigh odd things, vehicles, an animal on foot or in the trailer, then trailer with no animal, for a small charge. You are not guessing then, have the numbers to work with.

Down side with thicker bodied animals is you need to get them truly fit, know how to cool them quickly at Vet check, to be able continue Marathon section E. Then cool them again after Marathon so they have no problems later. We have deep bodied horses, have to work to cool them well, so they recover well when we are done.

There are a number of vehicle makes available for the larger pony, Hardwick Puddle Jumper comes to mind. They are older, but quite popular. But I don’t know the weights. Too light means they may not be strong enough when loaded to take the stresses of rough handling on Marathon. Too heavy means extra work for pony. We have horses, so smaller vehicles have not been on my radar to choose among them.

You might get on the CD-L group to ask this question, maybe look at some photos in the Whip from ADS or Driving Digest, to see what is being used. Not sure of your budget, but there is a range of makes and prices in Marathon vehicles.

I compete with a 13.1h pony. My marathon carriages have been in the 300# - 350# range. I do try to keep my personal weight under 140# and navigator weight under 200#. This isn’t always possible :confused: That said I make certain that I condition the pony carefully and thoroughly for the job. Is he the fastest on marathon? Rarely, but that may be that I am not at that skill level yet. He is definitely very competitive in dressage and cones. I have never felt him suggest that he is being overfaced or struggle with the workload.
So, yes, you can compete happily with a medium pony. The extra care with conditioning and schooling can result in increased skill level and better scores.

Well, as a beginner I’m aiming to just be able to finish and not lame/abuse my pony. Winning is not really the goal. I don’t want to get a couple years in and I wind up wrecking him due to tendon strain, etc. . . he is also my daughter’s riding pony. So he’s essential.

I’m very well versed in conditioning, but not well versed with carriage things. So trying to educate myself first, and not put him towards an “impossible” task.

I have tried calculating weight, with the heartgirth/length, etc. calculations and I keep winding up with 800-810 pounds. I am shocked. I never would have guessed that for a 13h pony.

I am now looking for scales to weigh him on. He is 1/2 QH, so all “backside” muscle and motor. He’s no “refined” welsh or hackney

You need to take into account the minimum weight requirement for your carriage in competition. I understnad your concern is regarding total weight, but there are minimum carriage weight requirements.

ETA: Minimum for single pony is 90kg

Actually for ADS competitions, there is no weight minimum. The 90kg is for FEI level competitions. I was checking the ADS Rule Book, page CD-22 shows the FEI requirements in black, with ADS requirements on page CD-23 in blue color. Very few CDEs in the USA are done to FEI rules, but read the information in the Omnibus or call the Organizer to ask questions.

90kg is quite light, only 198 pounds. I would be careful in inspecting welds, how the axles are attached to the vehicle. I would try to drive it before buying, but not always possible. You try to keep weight low in wheels and axles, it makes for a more stable ride, not allowing much in tippy feeling. But at only 200 pounds or so, a tall groom standing exerts a lot of force if they try swinging vehicle away from a post. This is where I said you NEED a bit of weight, but don’t want heavy weight because it just wears the animal out on the course. Add in type of going, mud, hills, sand, and that will add to his exertions pulling weight behind. Marathon at the levels above Training is supposed to stress him a bit with faster times, more gates in Hazards, because you believe Pony can do this, has the skills and conditioning to manage well. In most cases Driver and Pony have come thru Training to learn needed skills, going to step-up on competition levels. Nice to hear you plan to learn and not be strongly competitive while you gain the information, skills, learning needed, as beginners.

Here in Michigan we have a humidity problem to deal with most years. High temps and high humidity doesn’t allow good body cooling with sweat. Air horse breathes in is warm, wet. Something we have to figure in is how much we can ask of the horses in speed, going on the hills and rolling ground. We NEED to plan on aggressive cooling at Vet check and after Marathon most years. How fast can we drop temps and respiration in that 10 minutes we are allowed? How fast or slow do we ask them to go thru the Hazards? Other locations can let you compete in higher temps, low humidity with much less recovery issues. It does take good conditioning, he has to be able to self-cool as much as possible. Does make any dapples show a lot better too! Ours are all dappled, we have heard the dapples are part of helpful heat dispersal, show up on thermographic pictures.

We will be starting our conditioning soon, to get in at least 90 working days on the horses before the June CDE. Weather will interfere, along with that darn “need to work” problem so you have money to compete! Ha Ha Information we use says horse body needs 90 days of various kinds of work to get ALL the body parts equally conditioned, to prevent any single part getting damaged with too much work before getting it fit. This means 3 to 5 works a week, in the Interval Training system of getting conditioned program. If Pony is daughters riding animal, she can help do conditioning from the saddle some of the time. You just have to plan it, so she is doing what is needed to build him. It is not all about doing great distances or much at great speed. Speed and long distance waits until you are almost done with your 90 days, so none of his parts gets stressed too soon. Bone takes much longer to get fit than muscle.

and part of it will depend on what you and hubby weigh

You likely won’t be able to use the same vehicle for both horses, I have a 14.2 Morgan, fairly stout, and I “had” a cob sized vehicle that was just too heavy for him, but had been fine for a 15h QH cross, he “could” pull it with sis and I on it (we both weigh about 150)

I have heard so many things as well about weights, what carriage to buy etc. Here is the experience that I have found with carriages, but it just my opinion and I’m sure everyone else has had different experiences.

We have a 13h welsh section B pony, weighs about 600lb and we bought our first marathon carriage 12 years ago. We did do single competitions with him, the carriage was 400lb, husband was 200lb and I was 140lb. We were concerned about the weight and he was a very fit pony. He never stopped but would have temps around 103-104 after competitions with high respirations and took a bit to come down in temps. We decided to go to a pair as we felt it was unfair for him to continue to do this. I also might add that my husband is quite competive and did very well at the prelim level with this pony. But he never put winning first - if he ever though the pony had any issues, he would pull up and stop the competition - this did happen at our very first CDE where there were lots of hills and chest deep water - not fair for the pony so we pulled out half way through. I always watched legs for splints, poulticed after every marathon and massaged the pony as well. We were new to CDE’s 12 years ago (only did pleasure) and knew this was quite a step up for the pony so we were very careful with our boy.

I also drove a 13.2h 800lb cob who just would never be a CDE pony. We had a 300lb carriage and he just didnt have the drive to do it. He would tire about 2km in (I never competed him in a CDE, just pleasure shows and trails at home) and he was quite lazy and enjoyed the pleasure shows. He could have and should have been able to do CDE’s as he was fit and was worked often, and was well below the 80% weight ratio, he just didnt have the heart for it.

We now have a 14.2h pony that is around 900lb and is more of a “hot blooded” type of pony. Has some go but listens well, seems to love driving and has no problem pulling my husband and myself around. We were driving him to the 300lb carriage that was built for the 13h pony and he looks quite large hooked to it (in my opinion). The wheels are 60cm - meant for a 13h pony, and we did build a new pair carriage and had 70cm wheels put on it, and drove our 13h pair to it for one year as the end goal was for the carriage to be for the 14.2h ponies. The carriage looked a little large for them, but they pulled it with no problems whatsoever - temps coming in around 101 and the vets couldnt believe we finished the marathon - never needed re checking.

It is a heavy carriage at 600lb and is meant for our new pair of 14.2h ponies, but his mate is only 3 and is just being broke to ride now. We have sold our smaller single carriage and are building a new one that weighs around 375lb with 70cm wheels. Should look better hooked to the larger guy.

You could always have a carriage do both, but the carriage will either look too big for the small guy or too small for your large guy. Weights are hard to say as some ponies have no problems pulling the weight, and others do have a hard time. I try to stay below their body weight and would be comfortable with 80% as goodhors stated.

I’ve attached some pics of my guys to give you an idea of carriage size and what I was talking about. Sorry for the long post but hopefully you can pull some useful info from it :slight_smile: You can see the 10cm wheel difference in some of the pics - I found it did make a difference on size of animal to carriage - looks wise.

13h pony hooked to the 300lb 60cm wheels
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/538027_10152764907185046_1438199114_n.jpg?oh=6dd4dfc4602f3d032d45c5b5f16b56c5&oe=57418229

13.2h cob hooked to single 300lb carriage with 60cm wheels - only picture I seem to have of him pulling this carriage
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/10922807_10155200083260046_3898139415701338793_n.jpg?oh=15fc9a2c04d67ea16c0aeff7efa7149e&oe=573FD0E5

14.2h pony hooked to the 300lb 60cm wheels
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/l/t1.0-9/12072640_10156184802735046_3247265269549484433_n.jpg?oh=3b2f827413ee3dc550e6b817fc3a7be9&oe=576E7C8C
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11009910_10155846731960046_8944366573766519814_n.jpg?oh=fb5d0e40107e2a06ee3570463af26110&oe=57346DEE

13h pair hooked to new 600lb with 70cm wheels
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/11071924_10155559342090046_6755051934976585613_n.jpg?oh=1623356687a9152c08589d5b5d6fb0e5&oe=573C56CC

13h pair hooked to our older 400lb with 60cm wheels
https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12014_10152764907350046_1820610069_n.jpg?oh=18e1be86f459ad6d072eff8056d51212&oe=572FB1D5

13h single hooked to our older 400lb with 60cm wheels - he pulled this for 2 years as a single before we bought his brother to help him out
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/5089_220555345045_4566891_n.jpg?oh=2e31943ee4be22980175ff4bb8ca7611&oe=57441C89

Thank you ALL so much for the advice!

husband and I are too old to chase blue ribbons. We just like the challenge of trying CDE’s as a couple. And I get bored doing dressage all the time.

I think we have found an extremely reasonable carriage for a really good price. Good enough that we will get a carriage exclusively for the 13h pony and just let “today be today” and learn and move forward with him.

WE call our other youngsters “Cobs” when in reality most are going to mature at 15-15.2 hands. For god sake, that’s a horse! When the time comes they are going to need their own rig.

Carriages in sight are a 305 pound pony sized with 60cm wheels in front and 50cm in back
and a cob sized at 385 pounds with 60cm wheels.

I am leaning towards the lighter on. I am 5’10 and 170. Husband will navigate and is about 180 (or so he says, lets call that 190).

[QUOTE=The Tin Man;8509767]
Well, as a beginner I’m aiming to just be able to finish and not lame/abuse my pony. Winning is not really the goal. I don’t want to get a couple years in and I wind up wrecking him due to tendon strain, etc. . . he is also my daughter’s riding pony. So he’s essential.

I’m very well versed in conditioning, but not well versed with carriage things. So trying to educate myself first, and not put him towards an “impossible” task.

I have tried calculating weight, with the heartgirth/length, etc. calculations and I keep winding up with 800-810 pounds. I am shocked. I never would have guessed that for a 13h pony.

I am now looking for scales to weigh him on. He is 1/2 QH, so all “backside” muscle and motor. He’s no “refined” welsh or hackney[/QUOTE]
If winning is not your goal why do it? there are plenty of pleasure drives you could do and not stress your pony. Or think about doing the CT’s that take some skill and not as stressful on pony.

OP, I would go with the lighter vehicle myself. You said pony is in the 800#+ range, so that is getting close or right at his 80% limit with your weights added. You get some slack with muscled pony who will weigh MORE than unfit pony, because muscles weigh more than fat or just meat on him. Funny how they look slender and muscular, actually weigh more than when fatter and fluffy though it doesn’t ever look that way!

And unlike China Doll I can see why you will be going out to do CDE things. I like challenges myself, don’t have to be first, just want to be better than I used to be! Part of playing the Game of competition, just getting out and doing it! Husband and I both enjoy doing this, goal is to do better than our last outing, personal competitons with ourselves. Winning is nice, but not going to push horses harder than they can be safe with doing. They learn, we learn them better, so we mesh as a working team as we build on that. Have had a couple young horses mixed in the Pair for our last competitons, so you let them look and learn, not kill them dead for a ribbon. Last Pair was younger horses only, did a great job for us. The horses come back better each outing, no quit because we never hurt them. Our Dressage scores keep improving, which makes Cones and Hazards drive easier!

We also get to enjoy being out together at horse things. Pleasure and picnic drives with the Clubs are fun, just not nearly as exciting as the CDE stuff. It is good to make your heart race with excitement, cleans out the arteries!!

Yes I agree, it is working to improve yourself, and your pony! Kind of like dressage, where all I am concentrating on is trying to improve on the areas my pony was lacking at the last level. I could care less what "number " I score on the test. If the pony finally bent well to his stiff side . . then I won, in my mind.

I’m a semi-retired equine vet so the science behind conditioning and the workouts are very recreational and interesting to me.

On top of that, having a very fit pony by September will greatly benefit my daughter when foxhunting season rolls around!!!

I joke with clients (wives) who are complaining that to foxhunt they have to work their own mounts, plus their childrens’ or husband’s ride. Thus my draw to driving. One spouse can concentrate on getting one horse fit for the benefit and competition enjoyment of both spouses!

I think I’m sticking with the light carriage as well.

if its too light I can always be persuaded to eat more donuts.

[QUOTE=The Tin Man;8511220]
I think I’m sticking with the light carriage as well.

if its too light I can always be persuaded to eat more donuts.[/QUOTE]

Think of your vehicle as another piece of tack. If it doesn’t work for you, trade or sell it, buy another that will be better for you. What you like to drive will change as you gain experience driving, expect more from the vehicle with better skills.
You are not married to it! So use this vehicle, learn, change if you are not still happy later on. Features improve, engineering changes how they work now, over older models.

As you say, getting that good bend on the bad side can be the goal of THIS competition. You are happy and that is what makes it fun. We lay off in summer, working longer hours makes it very hard to keep them fit. The humidty and heat is no fun, along with bugs that no sprays keep away. Do our picnic and fun drives then, easy going for all of us. Hoping to get some trail riding done with the older (8yrs) mare, she needs a more work than just driving. I can tune on her while riding, improve her trots, rein skills, so her driving is improved.

[QUOTE=China Doll;8510723]
If winning is not your goal why do it? there are plenty of pleasure drives you could do and not stress your pony. Or think about doing the CT’s that take some skill and not as stressful on pony.[/QUOTE]

Because she wants to?

Why would you question the OP? She’s clearly put much thought, time and effort into choosing a vehicle suitable for her pony. It sounds as though the pony is a willing and happy driving pony, and she doesn’t want to overface the pony (kudos, OP). She and her husband want the experience and personal challenge, and they have an experienced driving pony to do it with.

OP, have fun this year! We are also doing CDEs for the first time and are so excited!

Put a deposit on the one that weighs just under 300 pounds. Goodhors, you are correct. . . this one is affordable enough to play with for a while, help me determine what I need, what fits me, my pony, etc. without breaking tha bank or making me feel like I need to “Make” this carriage work.

DiamondJubilee Your ponies and carriages are lovely!

Thank you littlebaypony!

Love your name by the way :slight_smile: