What would you do with this student??? (kinda long)

[redhorse05]

I have a tough situation with one of my lesson kids and their family. This mom had her kids in lessons with me four years ago, kids were 6 and 9 then. The kids, especially the younger one, don’t seem to really want to ride and just couldn’t catch on to posting at all. This went on for a whole summer. Mom is very pushy, the yell from the rail type, who thinks she knows it all much better than I do.

Sooooo… fast forward till now. Mom has bought SEVEN unridable horses that they keep at home. She and the kids were taking lessons at another area barn, where they could go year round. But now that trainer has left the area. So they have come back to us.

Last year, mom tried to get me to go to her house and teach and ride their horses for them, which I would not do. I don’t have insurance for teaching outside of work and certainly can’t afford to get hurt riding someone else’s crazy horses! So they dropped that and came back here.

Now the problem is this: the kids, especially the boy, who’s now 10, don’t seem to want to ride. They still don’t listen to anything, the older girl just whines about EVERYTHING and they boy just flops along. He doesn’t care if he rides at all. Mom spends the lesson alternately yelling at the kids to listen to me or telling them things counter to what I just said. Last week she just ripped into her daughter for something the kid said and screamed at her to get off the horse. Kid ignored her and kept on going. I do have several other people in the class who ride well and are really trying.

This is a public barn, owned by a Park District. I don’t have the luxury of just not teaching them. Anyone can sign up for group lessons, so just being unavailable to teach won’t work, as it does with privates.

My question to you guys is: how would you handle this? What can I tell mom that will help her understand the kids just don’t want to do this. The daughter seems to enjoy it sometimes BUT the son rarely does. I am at a loss as to how to help make this situation more livable for all of us. I dread this hour of my week sooooo much!!! Thanks for any hints you guys may have!

~Odin

[AAJumper]

Since they don’t seem to really want instruction, is it possible to just basically ignore them? If it is a group lesson, can you just not comment on what they are doing? I used to have a trainer that was so fed up with a customer who wouldn’t do anything she told her to do, she basically would stand in the arena while the lady rode, but not really teach her. The lady eventually left on her own. If the people come to you later and ask why you are not giving them any instruction, you can simply say “well, it is apparent to me that you and your children are not interested in listening to what I have to say, therefore, I am not wasting my breath.”

[Kryswyn]

May I guess you’re somewhat younger than the Mom? If so, I bet she doesn’t respect you at all. She is used to running roughshod over people anyway, and when you turned her “at home lessons” down, that has eaten away at her.

Subtlety does not work with cows, nor with this woman.

What I would do: During the next lesson w/ the family terrible’ at the 1st Mom squawk (and it MUST be the 1st, no matter if it’s one of her quieter corrections) in a loud TEACHER VOICE (aka THE VOICE) say: EXCUSE ME MRS. DITZ! Please ride into the center." This should be novel enough to capture her attention. Then when she rides in say in no uncertain tones and so that no one else can hear you, “My patience is at an end. I will NO LONGER tolerate your distruption of this class. It is not fair to the other students, or to your children who are torn between listening to me or to you. With respect Mrs. Ditz, for this hour, I am the instructor; YOU are the student. In my classes, students are not allowed to correct other students. That is MY job and I am requesting that you let me do it. Now go back to the rail and please keep your comments to yourself. Thank you for understanding.”

Immediately turn and address another student to prevent her from answering back. If she does so anyway, ignore her. Remember, and remind HER when an appropriate moment presents itself, that riding is a dangerous sport with a great deal of risk involved. By distracting her children, and the other students, she is setting the stage for a serious accident. If you have a problem with confrontations, buck yourself up by remembering that it is this kind of woman who will sue your a$$ off when she falls.

Good luck and let us know what happens!

~Kryswyn~
“Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo”

[redhorse05]

I have a tough situation with one of my lesson kids and their family. This mom had her kids in lessons with me four years ago, kids were 6 and 9 then. The kids, especially the younger one, don’t seem to really want to ride and just couldn’t catch on to posting at all. This went on for a whole summer. Mom is very pushy, the yell from the rail type, who thinks she knows it all much better than I do.

Sooooo… fast forward till now. Mom has bought SEVEN unridable horses that they keep at home. She and the kids were taking lessons at another area barn, where they could go year round. But now that trainer has left the area. So they have come back to us.

Last year, mom tried to get me to go to her house and teach and ride their horses for them, which I would not do. I don’t have insurance for teaching outside of work and certainly can’t afford to get hurt riding someone else’s crazy horses! So they dropped that and came back here.

Now the problem is this: the kids, especially the boy, who’s now 10, don’t seem to want to ride. They still don’t listen to anything, the older girl just whines about EVERYTHING and they boy just flops along. He doesn’t care if he rides at all. Mom spends the lesson alternately yelling at the kids to listen to me or telling them things counter to what I just said. Last week she just ripped into her daughter for something the kid said and screamed at her to get off the horse. Kid ignored her and kept on going. I do have several other people in the class who ride well and are really trying.

This is a public barn, owned by a Park District. I don’t have the luxury of just not teaching them. Anyone can sign up for group lessons, so just being unavailable to teach won’t work, as it does with privates.

My question to you guys is: how would you handle this? What can I tell mom that will help her understand the kids just don’t want to do this. The daughter seems to enjoy it sometimes BUT the son rarely does. I am at a loss as to how to help make this situation more livable for all of us. I dread this hour of my week sooooo much!!! Thanks for any hints you guys may have!

~Odin

[system]

I would deal with the mother and if you can get her to shut up the kids just may find out that riding with you is the MOST enjoyable place in their world.

The kids first, and then the other riders are the real victims here. It is not fair to the other riders to have this kind of disruption and rude behavior going on while they are trying to concentrate.
I would not be surprised if you lose some other students if the mutha is not controlled.

You can get pretty strict in your classes with this woman. I call it instructors liscense, it is not only allowable it is actually needed.

The first thing I would do is to put together a set of rules regarding the class. You can name some of the simple things like not cutting other riders off or crowding and then insert one about disruptive behavior.

This way when you tell this woman to can it you have the same rules for all in black and white already posted.

Bottom line is that being able to control a class is one of the prime prerequisites and duties of an instructor.
You are in the right, do what needs to be done.

Ps,
concerning talking to the children first, I strongly advise against that.It will only give the witch ammunition against you .That is getting too personal with your argument and gives her another reason to yell at her children. Perhaps not in your presence, but certainly after she gets them alone.

Just tell the gal to shut up, plain and simple.
I would not worry about being real political about it. Most of the others will most likely come up after class and thank you.

Some days are chicken, some days are feathers.

[Celtic_Witch]

Nothing like a pushy cow for a mom.

If I have a parent who won’t shut up, I generally just turn to them and say (loudly), ‘if you think you know this so much better than I, why don’t you come in here and take over?’ So far, that’s shut all but one father up. In his case, I simply banned him from the lesson.

At best, the parent will take the not so subtle hint and be quiet. At worse, they’ll take their business elsewhere.

Cheers,
Susie

[redhorse05]

I knew I should have written here sooner!
AAjumper~ ignoring them in class has been my strategy up till now. That has worked for me in the past BUT with these particular people, it works just the opposite way

Kryswyn, I am 32, the woman is in her mid forties. She is a very much disliked teacher at the local high school and VERY much used to getting her own way. Good call figuring that out! She is one of those bullies who just may back down if I read her the riot act as you posted it!

Craig~ your rules suggestion is a great one! One of my younger instructors came to me last week because she had a group of railside instructing moms that would NOT be quiet! I solved that in just a minute but having a sign of ‘parent/student rules’ might just be what I need.

For my part, I am NOT easily intimidated normally. This woman’s problem with us goes back a few years to when we had a different manager. That mgr was soooooo scared of any sort of conflict or complaint, she would go right behind me and bend over for this mom. When mom came back the end of last season, I was just amazed. She left in such a huff, we were hoping she’d not come back! But I you guys have given me some great hints.

Well today is going to be a stressful day in itself, we have a new manager starting, and I am just dreading it. Our last mgr was fantastic! however she decided she wanted to go back to nursing, so we are all highly spoiled and anxious about this new one. I guess this will be my summer to learn patience!

~Odin

[Cactuskate]

Yuk, that has got to be a horrible situation for the other students in the session. Let alone your peace of mind.

Since it is a “public” program, do you have a supervisor or other “third party” to the situation? Maybe you could get the support of that person to help you talk to this mother.

I would think it would not be too much to ask of her, to not speak during the lessons, if not for her children, at least the benefit of the others.

Myself, I would sure want to explain what I felt my purpose was in teaching and that if she disagreed with my methods maybe it would be in her best interest to do her own instructing at their home. But hey I can tick off the best of them…

Good luck and I hope you find a good resolve to this difficult situation. Our time working is supposed to be enjoyable…I hate that you dread them coming.

“The older I get, the better I used to be.”

[rileyt]

Odin- This will be long, but your description sounds EXACTLY like a situation I had several months ago. (I finally got rid of the people! Maybe they moved to your neck of the woods? he he he). Here is my advice. I have been teaching for about 10 years, and there are several rules that I am very strict about, that have helped me deal with this. I agree with the posters that you may have to be blunt/direct… but don’t be rude… it’s just not professional. Saying “Mrs. X, I have a very strict rule that parents MUST NOT talk to their children during the lesson.” is one thing, telling her to shut up is totally different. Even though this is a public stable, they can’t force you to teach people. There comes a point, where SAFETY becomes an issue. It sounds like you are a good teacher,… part of your solution depends on the manager. Here is what I did.

First of all… DON’T LET PARENTS SAY ONE WORD DURING LESSONS. (I have this rule regardless of whether the parent is saying something helpful or not!) As you can see, it severely comprimises your “control” of the class. You need to lay down the law. It’s quite simple. The FIRST time Mrs. X opens her mouth. You stop the lesson, walk over to her, and say “Mrs. X, I have a very strict rule, parents are not allowed to talk to their children during the lesson. It is for safety’s sake. I NEED 100 % of their attention to keep the class safe.” That rule MUST be uncomprimising. If she opens her mouth again. Remind her right away, and suggest that if she can’t abide by that rule, she will have to leave. Third time, tell her to leave. And don’t give her any choice. Say, “You WILL leave. You may try again next week. But the class will not continue until you remove yourself from the ringside.” THE NO TALKING RULE IS SO IMPORTANT!

Second, talk to your manager. As a public stable, you may have to accept any client that walks in the door, but you do not have to teach children who are behaving in such a disruptive/unsafe manner. I talked to these particular parents several times. They had a whiney daughter who didn’t listen, abused my ponies, and cried constantly. She also had a brother who “flopped.” (By the way, want to teach him to post? Put him on the bounciest pony you can find… he’ll learn to post when his butt gets sore!) On the third time, I wrote a letter, very clearly stating the problems, how they relate to SAFETY of the class, and what needed to happen to improve them. The letter contained an ultimatum: The first time your daughter breaks these rules, (One of mine was “no crying” because she literally cried EVERY WEEK), she will be removed from the class. I gave a copy to my boss before giving it to the parents, and she supported my 100%.

Third, you must recognize that this kind of nonsense DOES present a safety risk! If the child is not listening, or he/she or her mother decides WHICH instructions they want to follow, and which ones they don’t, someone can get hurt. ESPECIALLY in a group class. Don’t just ignore them… if they are there, they need to participate in class, or go elsewhere. I think “my way or the highway” is not such a bad motto with beginners. YOU are the professional. It is YOUR responsibility to keep them safe… HOWEVER, you cannot MAKE them do anything.

Lay down the law. Give them three chances. Then tell them they need to leave. But do it professionally. When I finally got rid of these kids (the ONLY ones I’ve ever ditched in 10 years of teaching), I let her break the rules in my letter three times. The third time it was an EGREGIOUS breaking. I stopped the lesson, told the girl gently to get off, walked her over to the rail, handed teh pony to the diabolical Mom, and said: “I’m very sorry, but I cannot tolerate this behavior anymore. Your daughter is excused from the lesson. You need to find another place to ride.” In my case, my manager was helpful, but if she hadn’t been, I was prepared to put my foot down and say, “I will not teach these people. They are creating an unsafe environment.”

good luck.

[redhorse05]

Thanks for the suggestions! Kate, I am the equine program director, so there isn’t anyone above me on this one. But I will talk to the park Manager (when the new one starts work ) about the problem. Two of the other students are a mom and daughter also, that I have taught for years and are super people. They mentioned yesterday how nice it was without the witch-mom and offspring there!

I haven’t had much luck with sublety, so will have to try the direct blunt approach. It’s not so much a ‘my way or no way’ situation, but I feel that if they are paying ME for my opinion, why not at least LISTEN to it a little???

I always have to watch myself that I am not TOO blunt with people, so maybe I’ve gone too far the other way now. This woman would like to stir up trouble just because she enjoys that. On a good note, they are gone again next week also

~Odin

[Heather]

Slightly different tack–

I used to teach kids, and while we were not “public” we did have camps in the summer that anybody could sign up for. We commonly would have 3-7 kids per camp that had never been around or ridden horses before. Usually at least half of those were simply being dumped off by parents that needed some plcae to stash their kids during the day, and had always wanted top ride themselves. The kids, frankly, would have rather been ANYWHERE than at the barn.

So, I had a semi standard speech prepared that parents got when it became clear than little Suzy or Johnny was miserable. I should add, that I ouwld usually have a casual conversation with SUzy or Johnny ahead of time along the lines of–“you didn’t seem to be having a lot of fun today, why do you think that is? Do you think it would be better if you rode a different pony, or in a different group? What are som other things you like to do? If you could do anything you wanted this afternoon, what would it be?”

Then I would go to the parents and say, “I’d like to have a conversation about Suzy. Suzy has been very unhappy this week, and it doesn’t seem that she really isn’t enjoying being here or riding the ponies. I’d like to discuss how you think she is feeling about things, and maybe what we can do. Suzy says she really loves to play soccer, and I know there are a ton of really great soccer camps around here–maybe we could refund you the balance of your fee, and you could take SUzy to soccer camp. See, horses are very large anod very dangerous, and learning to be a good, safe rider is very hard. It takes a lot of dedication, and if you don’t really love them, them you aren’t going to have the motivation to really stick through it learninig to ride. And that isn’t fair to SUzy, or to my ponies, or the other kids.” At this point, usually I’d get some sort of comment like, “But SUzy loves to ride! We always talk about how lucky she is because I always wanted to ride when I was her age.”

At which point I would reiterate my feeling, that Suzy was miserable but then point out that we offered an excellent riding program for adults, and I would be happy to introduce Suzy’s mom to the adult instructor.

Since your lady already rides, just let her know (perhaps through gritted teeth ) that you are happy for her to continue riding, but that if her kids are unhappy that perhaps they would like to try some other activity.

GOod luck!

[ljo]

I have ZERO patience and do not teach(people)

I’d tell the mom to drop the kids off and not to stay.I’d say I want to evaluate them on their own.I’d also tell her I suspect that they may not be so interested and you can only judge that if they are by themselves without her influence.I’d also tell her she is disruptive to the class as a whole and the other students.If she insists on staying I’d tell her that she must do so without opening her mouth.Tell her to just watch and come to her own conclusions about her children’s interest in riding.

[moose]

Ask yourself what is the worse thing that could happen if you’re politely blunt with these people? They shape up, they leave,-worse case they leave in a snit and write a letter. If they’re in a group lesson it is to your advantage since they’re not the only ones paying for your time-you could end up losing nice people if they keep disrupting it. Keep notes of the incidents they’ve caused and the dates. You don’t have to tell them they’re whacked for owning seven horses (sheesh-that’s a school string in itself!)and not riding them, but you could politely start to instill authority over the mom while you’re in the ring. She shouldn’t be yelling to her kids while they ride-start with that, and consider telling her politely from the middle of the ring if she keeps it up. That usually backs such a parent off, if they’ve been asked publically in front of other parents also paying for your time.

Eventually they will probably go away since the kids don’t want it and eventually will start to think of ways to get out of it. Even if she doesn’t believe it, that fact isn’t going to change and going to every barn in the area isn’t going to fix it.

With my mom it was piano-she was convinced I would play since my grandmother did. They went and bought one when I was 8 and I absolutely loathed that sucker by the time I was 13. Eventually I found many excuses not to practice and miss lessons, however my poor mom just couldn’t admit it was all for not. I don’t think she can to this day Fortunately My sister in-law loved it so it found a good home.

[redhorse05]

Good suggestions, you guys! I guess I should mention that mom is also riding IN THE CLASS! My thus far ineffective way of dealing with this is: when she talks over me, I would just turn and go help one of the other students. I have a great "the Mom’s will Now Be Quiet’ speech that i use for beginner groups. Don’t know why it didn’t occur me to use it here but it just might work.

You do raise a point about the complaint letter. One letter is probably better than the three or four we’d get from the others when they get fed up! I fully expect she would complain, just because she really enjoys making a stink. UGGGG! Not at all a nice person to deal with . I also think mom needs a kick in the pants to mind her own riding and not complain about the kids all the time!!! They are gone next week, so it will be awhile before I can have a conversation with mom. I also thought of catching a minute to talk to the boy alone and ask him what he really thinks about riding. And then use that when I talk to mom. I’ve got lots of time to get prepared and not worry about causing a scene, Mom does enough of that!!!

~Odin