What's fair

[CHT]

Short version - former client is sending her horse for me to use/lease for lessons. Horse has serious health issues and may or may not be useful/live. What is far for payment for shipping & Tack?

Longer version - horse is a useful and kind type. Left my place in 2019 with HO moved across country, but the move has not gone well for the horse - first Lyme, then a barn fire, and now a rare auto immune disease. HO has had more trouble than expected to find competent and affordable board - her current barn was only affordable because horse was being used in lessons, but with his health issues that haven’t been using him, and they aren’t doing great managing his care (has kids/volunteers take care of horses on the weekend - and she isn’t convinced they are able to medicate him). HO works long shifts in health care, and can’t go to the barn daily. His care, trouble with boarding stables, and $$ is causing her a lot of stress, so she offered him to me (before she got the diagnoses of the auto-immune issue).

Vet thinks my region will be better for his health and ok’d the trip. Found a hauler that will get him here direct. She is sending his jumping saddle and summer blankets. Value of shipping and tack will be about $3500

If he was healthy he would be worth double that to me, but as it is I can’t even definitively count on using him, and his care might mean he is more a break even lesson horse vs a profit center. It’s possible he will be good for a handful of years, but also possible he is just coming here to be put down.

HO tends to be overly generous. I don’t want to take advantage…or make a poor business decision. She has not asked for money for shipping/tack. How should I approach this to be fair? A monthly payment if he becomes useful to pay for the tack/shipping? A lump sum payment in the future?

[mmeqcenter]

I may not be correctly understanding - why would you pay for shipping or tack?

[BrendaJane]

go be fair.

[BrendaJane]

Splitt it, perhaps?

I don’t know.
I hope the horse does welll with the change.

[atr]

So, she will be out from under the board, etc., payments once he’s back with you, whatever his health status?

If so, I’d stay quiet and let her pay to ship him back. You are doing her an enormous favor taking over the care of this guy.

Which is very decent of you!

[PNWSunnyDay]

Pay to ship tack back if/when horse degrades and is PTS.

There are a lot of unknowns for you now regarding whether this horse is in the black or red financially. You are putting HO’s mind at ease by taking him. I would wait to offer anything $$.

[trubandloki]

To me this sounds like a situation where you are providing this owner with a solution that they can not find elsewhere. They are including the tack because they are a responsible owner and want the horse to have use of its tack.

I do not think you owe them anything.

Do write up a contract that states all of what is going on (you are using the horse in X number of lessons per week doing Y in exchange for board and maintenance for the horse) and with an out for either side if they want to change the situation.
Who pays for trucking the horse back to the owner, who is responsible for vet expenses associated with shipping the horse back.
Oh, also include what you are allowed to authorize medically. Are you allowed to euthanize even if you can not get in touch with the owner?

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Can you negotiate a month-to-month fee, based on how many lessons he’s used in? For example, for every lesson, this is $XX discount from board?

I would agree the HO pays for shipping. Tack and blankets aren’t something I think you need to pay for (although if the horse is put down, you could arrange to purchase them from her, if they would be of use.)

If the HO isn’t paying board or for care, and to be used in lessons at your discretion, I would let her pay for the shipping, since I’d presume it was less than she would be paying for boarding full care after a few months, plus vet care.

[chestnutmarebeware]

If I were the HO, this would be an offer that is an answer to my prayers.

Since the horse’s health is so uncertain, and the HO knows and trusts you with the horse, my offer (if I were the HO) would be for you to buy the horse for $1, pay 100 percent of the shipping, and get the tack and equipment for free. That way there’s no figuring cost of use going forward, or worrying about who’s responsible for vet care, or getting permission to euthanize if the horse goes downhill suddenly.

It sounds like a great solution for all of you (including the horse)m and I hope it works out!

[NaturallyHappy]

If I’m following correctly, you will be responsible for his support going forward? Will you be paying vet bills, etc? (I’d be certain to sort that out if you haven’t.) If I were the owner, I’d be happy to pay shipping to get my horse to a good location for him.

[Djones]

Why are you responsible for his bills at all?

Near term: she boards him with you for x per month. After 60 days, you evaluate his health and potential for use as a lesson horse and adjust accordingly.

[hoopoe]

You pay for the horse, value 1$ This transfers ownership and abilities to you. If the horse works out for your program everyone wins, If not you have the right to retire him or PTS<

Owner pays for the shipment. If this horse works out and you feel compelled to pay for him via the value of the shipment you can pay her a monthly installment until the value of the shipment cost is met. I bet she wont take it

You are getting her out of a situation where it appears her only other option is euthanasia.

she is currently earning herself dignity and peace knowing that she is doing for her friend something that is a calculated risk with someone she trusts. I would be willing to pay the expense to send my horse to someone I trusted, in a situation that might allow him to continue to live a happy life.

[BeeHoney]

Owner pays for shipping, tack and board and major vet. You take pristine care of the horse and arrange and pay for shoeing, vaccines, and dental care, and on a monthly basis pay fair and square for whatever use you get out of the horse. I would expect that if you are using the horse regularly with no limitations, no board payment would be necessary. If the horse is only partially useful, a partial board payment. In any case, you send regular updates and photos to owner. If the horse requires expensive maintenance medication, either owner can provide or you can split it if the horse is in full work.

Re tack: You take care of the tack and replace anything that becomes overly worn or broken and return it when the horse is no longer being ridden or if the owner asks for it back.

When the horse is no longer rideable, the owner once again assumes full financial responsibility for the horse, and you continue to provide excellent care of the horse. If, at that point you feel that you have come out “ahead” in the agreement, you could offer a discounted retirement board rate.

The impression I get is that this owner’s main concern is the care and wellbeing of the horse, so I think that in terms of being fair, the most valuable thing you have to offer is taking really excellent care of the horse and relieving the stress the owner has had in that regard.

[CHT]

The reasons I am not buying the horse are: 1) his treatment is currently covered by insurance. The insurance company may just pay her out, but if they don’t then we want to keep the insurance and I don’t think we can if he switches owner. The insurance company is aware of the move and lease. 2) She never offered to sell him.

His medication is just steroids, so cheap. It’s more the care that is the complication/expense. Easy for me as I have my own property, but more complicated for someone who boards.

We are not going to charge her board. My non-horsey husband really liked this horse and his owner, and is fine with short term loss to help them both out.

Eventual retirement is a conversation we should have that I didn’t think about. It IS possible he goes into remission and can retire. If I stop boarding before he needs to be PTS I would send him back to her. So perhaps the answer is to use any “profit” from him to pay his retirement or shipping back to her? HO is hoping to eventually be able to move further away yet, and when she does, she may be able to take her horse back.

We have so far just been discussing via messenger, but I think you guys are right that I should get things in writing…why does that feel awkward?

[atr]

“I just want us both to be happy and clear about what’s going to happen with “horsie.” I’ll send you an email, please amend as you see fit and send it back to me.”

At the end of this exchange of emails, you’ll both have your expectations in writing.

[BeeHoney]

So, @CHT you ended your OP by asking us to help you make sure you weren’t making a poor business decision. But, to be fair, taking on a horse that might or might not be sound, requires extra care, and for which you have no plan to charge board even if it isn’t sound… well, it’s not a strong business decision. Also, you ask what is “fair” and I think what is generally accepted as fair (or at least a starting point for fair) is that horse owners support their own horses.

But, that doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t take this horse and support it if that is what you want to do! It just means that maybe it would be better to shift your lens and ask yourself how much you want to contribute to this horse’s care and retirement just because you want to, and make a very intentional decision on that ahead of time.

For example, maybe you have a ton of grass pasture and you estimate you will be able to keep the horse inexpensively, but hay and grain prices are likely to rise sharply this fall and there could be other changes in the economy–maybe there is a limit to how much you are willing to pay for this horse’s care? I think you should have a backup plan in place to charge board just in case costs go through the roof or your situation changes, so you won’t end up feeling stuck. I don’t personally think you should feel any need to contribute towards transportation–your gift of caring for the horse is a really huge one.

I think that when putting an agreement in writing feels awkward, that is a sign that you really need a written agreement. The best way to handle might be to speak with the owner and ask a lot of detailed questions about what her expectations and concerns are–and then include that in the agreement or in an email as @atr suggests.

[lenapesadie]

If I’m reading correctly, the horse is currently not useful due to his health but he might improve at your location.

What if his health precludes him for any work regardless of the change of location? You’re just footing his bills out of charity?

I think fair would be for HO to cover all costs until such time as horse health improves and he becomes useful to your program. Then discount the HO’s board relative to how much use the horse gives you.

[Fiesta01]

No advice on a fair price. I just wanted to thank you for giving this horse a soft place to land.

[CHT]

his condition is such that if he doesn’t get better then he will have to be PTS. It is not the type of condition where he will be pasture sound if not riding sound (from what the vet says). If he can’t be kept in remission his owner will use insurance to put him down. These are good questions/thoughts though. It does sound like it is fair for HO to pay shipping, and I do have some questions I need to consider.