What's with all this Horn grabbing?

[QUOTE=Angelico;7372725]

I don’t know the rules of western/ranch pleasure classes, but since western riding already harbors so many poor riders I don’t know why they would encourage it. [/QUOTE]

Well, thanks for the slap in the face.

I’m a Western rider, for the record. I’m glad to be informed that we are poor riders. Especially coming from someone who doesn’t know all of the rules for Western riding events.

As for the video in question, the rules clearly state that he is allowed to hold the saddle horn. And I don’t think anyone can say that he needed to hold the saddle horn to stay balanced on his horse. It appears as if he chose to hold the saddle horn for that section of his pattern, and appears that if he would have let go of the saddle horn, his body position probably would not have changed. I won’t repeat what everyone else has already said, but Ranch Pleasure has a workable meaning behind it.

But who cares. We western riders can’t ride anyway, apparently.

[QUOTE=beau159;7472133]
Well, thanks for the slap in the face.

I’m a Western rider, for the record. I’m glad to be informed that we are poor riders. Especially coming from someone who doesn’t know all of the rules for Western riding events.

As for the video in question, the rules clearly state that he is allowed to hold the saddle horn. And I don’t think anyone can say that he needed to hold the saddle horn to stay balanced on his horse. It appears as if he chose to hold the saddle horn for that section of his pattern, and appears that if he would have let go of the saddle horn, his body position probably would not have changed. I won’t repeat what everyone else has already said, but Ranch Pleasure has a workable meaning behind it.

But who cares. We western riders can’t ride anyway, apparently.[/QUOTE]

Silly, I never said you were all bad. I said, and you even quoted it (but obviously didn’t read) "Western riding already harbors so many poor riders,". In America, western is the most popular type of riding. With the numbers you have, you will have a higher percentage of poor riders. I am referring to guys that do cling to the horn, who do yank on the mouth, who have no intention of bettering themselves and who “know better” than everyone else, especially those in other disciplines. These guys would be poor riders no matter what discipline they chose, they just happened to choose western riding, and like I said, when you have the most riders, you have the most bad riders.

I’ve also noticed that in the western disciplines, especially barrel racing, if you stay on the horse you are considered a good rider. A good seat, subtle cues, and willingness to learn, mean little in most western circles that I’ve been exposed to. I live in Texas eight months out of the year, I have been around a LOT of western riders.

I think ranch pleasure is a great class, a needed one. I just wish they would promote good basics, I’d hoped this might open some eyes, encourage people to sit up tall, find your balance, and stay out of your horse’s way.

[QUOTE=Angelico;7472162]
Silly, I never said you were all bad. I said, and you even quoted it (but obviously didn’t read) "Western riding already harbors so many poor riders,". In America, western is the most popular type of riding. With the numbers you have, you will have a higher percentage of poor riders. I am referring to guys that do cling to the horn, who do yank on the mouth, who have no intention of bettering themselves and who “know better” than everyone else, especially those in other disciplines. These guys would be poor riders no matter what discipline they chose, they just happened to choose western riding, and like I said, when you have the most riders, you have the most bad riders. [/QUOTE]

Have you actually gone and counted all the Western riders in the world, counted how many are bad riders, and then counted all the English riders in the world (and how many were bad). And let’s not forget the people who ride in Austrailian saddles, and how many of them are bad.

Your generalization of Western riders and that there are more bad riders in Western riding (simply because there are more) is ridiculous. There’s no point in even saying it because there are bad riders in every discipline.

I’ve seen my fair share of English riders who can’t balance themselves in the saddle and just hang on their horse’s mouth the whole time. And I’ve ridden English-trained horses that had terrible stopping abilities because rein contact meant nothing to them; they just ignored it. Yet you don’t see me going around saying how English riding harbors bad riders.

Your quote itself “Western riding already harbors so many poor riders” I find quite insulting.

[QUOTE=Angelico;7472162]
I’ve also noticed that in the western disciplines, especially barrel racing, if you stay on the horse you are considered a good rider. [/QUOTE]

And who exactly has told you that?

That’s ridiculous.

While I will agree there are plenty of bad riders in barrel racing who give the rest of us a bad name (because it looks easy to people … how hard can it be to run around 3 cans?), there are still many of us who strive to be good horsepeople and have good horsemanship.

While I enjoy many different horse activities, my main passion is barrel racing. Most people are surprised that my “crazy barrel horse” can go win a western pleasure class or a reining class (locally, of course). They don’t understand the time that a GOOD barrel racer puts into their horse to have a finely-tuned athlete that they can control every piece of their body, which is essential when you are running full speed toward a barrel and need to make a split-second adjustment.

Have you ever actually tried barrel racing?

[QUOTE=Angelico;7472162]
A good seat, subtle cues, and willingness to learn, mean little in most western circles that I’ve been exposed to. I live in Texas eight months out of the year, I have been around a LOT of western riders. [/QUOTE]

Sorry to hear you’ve been exposed to such a crowd. They’re certainly putting wrong ideas in your head.

Angelico, I am a Texan born and raised, don’t live there now, but your gross and inaccurate generalizations are insulting to all horsemen of all disciplines.

I honestly can’t say from reading your posts that you even know the difference, English or western, between good riding and bad. Your woefully ignorant summation of barrel racing is a case in point.

[QUOTE=beau159;7473064]
Have you actually gone and counted all the Western riders in the world, counted how many are bad riders, and then counted all the English riders in the world (and how many were bad). And let’s not forget the people who ride in Austrailian saddles, and how many of them are bad.

Your generalization of Western riders and that there are more bad riders in Western riding (simply because there are more) is ridiculous. There’s no point in even saying it because there are bad riders in every discipline.

How is that ridiculous? Haha it’s simple, numbers. If there are 4 bad riders out of every 10 riders, in any discipline, and your discipline has the most riders… Not to mention that bad “trainers” create more bad riders. There are plenty of poor riders in every discipline, but not only is this the largest, but it is less socially accepted in the western circles to take lessons, etc.

I’ve seen my fair share of English riders who can’t balance themselves in the saddle and just hang on their horse’s mouth the whole time. And I’ve ridden English-trained horses that had terrible stopping abilities because rein contact meant nothing to them; they just ignored it. Yet you don’t see me going around saying how English riding harbors bad riders.

Your quote itself “Western riding already harbors so many poor riders” I find quite insulting.

And who exactly has told you that?

That’s ridiculous.

While I will agree there are plenty of bad riders in barrel racing who give the rest of us a bad name (because it looks easy to people … how hard can it be to run around 3 cans?), there are still many of us who strive to be good horsepeople and have good horsemanship.

While I enjoy many different horse activities, my main passion is barrel racing. Most people are surprised that my “crazy barrel horse” can go win a western pleasure class or a reining class (locally, of course).

The fact that people are surprised by this just proves my point. It should not shock the masses that your horse can do this. They should all be able to, that is the result of proper training.

They don’t understand the time that a GOOD barrel racer puts into their horse to have a finely-tuned athlete that they can control every piece of their body, which is essential when you are running full speed toward a barrel and need to make a split-second adjustment.

Yes, I have actually, I used to work for a guy that would take me out to his farm to ride his barrel racers after we were done galloping at the track. It is like any other discipline, if you do your flatwork and take care of your horses legs, develop good core strength, you should do well and set your self up to progress. The issue is, I’ve only ever met a handful of barrel racers who can actually ride, and create good horses. The flailing hands, swinging legs, flopping bodies, and poorly trained horses are sadly the norm. It is a shame, it is a relatively simple sport to participate in, compared to jumping, dressage, etc and it could be a great stepping stone into the competitive world. Instead most barrel races are nothing more than a glitter fest with no regard for good training and well rounded horses.

Have you ever actually tried barrel racing?

Sorry to hear you’ve been exposed to such a crowd. They’re certainly putting wrong ideas in your head.[/QUOTE]

It might surprise you to know that one of my all time favorite riders and idols is none other than Martha Josey. Martha is a real horsewoman. A real rider.

As tempting as it is folks, “don’t feed the troll” seems appropriate here.

[QUOTE=Beverley;7473470]
Angelico, I am a Texan born and raised, don’t live there now, but your gross and inaccurate generalizations are insulting to all horsemen of all disciplines.

I honestly can’t say from reading your posts that you even know the difference, English or western, between good riding and bad. Your woefully ignorant summation of barrel racing is a case in point.[/QUOTE]

I am TIRED of seeing the western disciplines go to the dogs. It is ridiculous, and trust me, I see plenty of English riders riding backwards and telling everyone about how they’ll be in the next Olympics, but the difference is, they still take lessons. They still go to shows where they will be scored, not rewarded for merely surviving. The kid that flies around the puddle jumpers with no regard for pace, distances, etc will not progress (and live).

The good barrel racers, Martha, Sheri, Tara, are great. They are the kind that can improve all riders. Too bad they are so few and far between.

[QUOTE=Angelico;7473511]
I am TIRED of seeing the western disciplines go to the dogs. It is ridiculous, and trust me, I see plenty of English riders riding backwards and telling everyone about how they’ll be in the next Olympics, but the difference is, they still take lessons. They still go to shows where they will be scored, not rewarded for merely surviving. The kid that flies around the puddle jumpers with no regard for pace, distances, etc will not progress (and live).

The good barrel racers, Martha, Sheri, Tara, are great. They are the kind that can improve all riders. Too bad they are so few and far between.[/QUOTE]

That alone shows us that you can’t tell one from another kind of rider or who is good, starting by name dropping there.:lol:
Those ladies would be the first ones to tell you what all they know and how much they don’t know and what exactly that is.

Take them out of their environment and they know they are not that knowledgeable, as any real horseman will tell you.

Nevermind, the good thing about horses is that you keep learning all your life.
This is one of those threads you could print, stick in the bottom of your sock drawer and ten years from now, when you come across it, have a good laugh about how you came across.:wink:

Happens to all of us, if we are the learning kind, which is the best kind to be as horsemen.:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Angelico;7473511]
How is that ridiculous? Haha it’s simple, numbers. If there are 4 bad riders out of every 10 riders, in any discipline, and your discipline has the most riders… [/QUOTE]

So there’s 10 Western riders and 4 of them are bad riders. 40% rate.

But what about the 5 English riders that have 3 bad riders in the bunch? That’s a 60% rate.

Again, I will ask you: Have you counted all the riders in the world in each discipline so that you know there are more Western riders? And have you counted all the “bad” riders in the world to know more of them are Western?

Anyone can walk around and simply pull numbers out of the air without any sort of proof to back it up.

I don’t often run across people who are so derogatory toward Western riding like you are.

[QUOTE=Angelico;7473511]
I am TIRED of seeing the western disciplines go to the dogs. It is ridiculous, and trust me, I see plenty of English riders riding backwards and telling everyone about how they’ll be in the next Olympics, but the difference is, they still take lessons. [/QUOTE]

Wait. But you said Western riding has bad trainers? So how can there be English people who “ride backwards” but are taking lessons? Must be bad English trainers giving those lessons.

[QUOTE=Angelico;7473511]
Yes, I have actually, I used to work for a guy that would take me out to his farm to ride his barrel racers after we were done galloping at the track.[/QUOTE]

Exercising/riding someone’s barrel horse is much, much different than actually running the pattern on a good rodeo horse or 1D barrel horse.

[QUOTE=Angelico;7473511]
The good barrel racers, Martha, Sheri, Tara, are great. They are the kind that can improve all riders. Too bad they are so few and far between. [/QUOTE]

Bluey hit the nail on the head on this one.

[QUOTE=Angelico;7472162]
I’ve also noticed that in the western disciplines, especially barrel racing, if you stay on the horse you are considered a good rider. A good seat, subtle cues, and willingness to learn, mean little in most western circles that I’ve been exposed to. I live in Texas eight months out of the year, I have been around a LOT of western riders.[/QUOTE]

Good heaven - I’d love to hear can chasers weigh in on THAT statement. Do you KNOW a lot of western riders or have you just been exposed to them in your TX-time? What is your discipline?

If you think that the good barrel horses become that by being trained & ridden by people without subtle clues, good seats, and willingness to learn, you are WAY mistaken. Just because it doesn’t look like your version of ‘subtle clues & good seats’ doesn’t mean it isn’t.

[QUOTE=ccoronios;7475077]
Good heaven - I’d love to hear can chasers weigh in on THAT statement. Do you KNOW a lot of western riders or have you just been exposed to them in your TX-time? What is your discipline?

If you think that the good barrel horses become that by being trained & ridden by people without subtle clues, good seats, and willingness to learn, you are WAY mistaken. Just because it doesn’t look like your version of ‘subtle clues & good seats’ doesn’t mean it isn’t.[/QUOTE]

That is called having an educated eye so you can see those subtleties.

I have several friends that barrel race, some at the PRCA level, 1D and all train and review their videos training and competing and they can see all kinds of things that I try, but am clueless about.

Then I am sure they would not be able to tell much of anything if they were to watch horses trained or performing in other disciplines they are not familiar with, where I may know what is going on.

The first step to learning is to truly want to learn, not just watch to pick at what others do or fail to do, in our less than enlightened opinion.:wink:

Wow, all I can say is wow. Ok, I will say more. I grew up riding western, I also have jumped, I do ride low level dressage, have barrel raced, love working cows, and do lots of trail riding…which is not easy by the way, especially when working obstacles.

I am no means a professional…even after riding for 45 years. I take lessons in multiple disciplines and have owned a lot of horses. There are poor riders and good riders…and excellent riders that can make all phases of riding look easy.

Again, wow.

When working cattle, which is really what Western saddles were designed for, you have to grab the horn sometimes when the horse is going back and forth. Cutters always do, and I also will grab it in sorting or penning if the run is fast. No harm in it, and I would rather do that than grab the horses’ mouth or fall off on a fast turn back. :stuck_out_tongue:

In the early years of cutting competition, they had the rare class where you were not to use the horn.

They found out that it made the horses work harder and slower, so why not help the horses by balancing on the horn?
So they discontinued those classes.

Don Dodge used to win those easily, but he said he would not do that with some of his more sensitive horses.

For what barrel racers tell me, some horses they go to the horn at times, some they don’t, depends on the horse and what they are doing.

To me, for some of what I do, the horn gets in my way more than helps, other than using a rope.

If you grow up riding with a horn handy, I can see why you may use it more out of habit.

Exactly. Some horses (especially those in training) you need to turn the barrel two-handed to keep them correct. The majority of finished horses, you can simply turn a barrel one-handed. Every horse is different and every horse turns a barrel different.

And if you’ve ever actually ridden a winning rodeo horse or a 1D horse at the big shows, the centripetal force around a barrel turn is insane. We hold onto the horn so that we can stay out of our horse’s way as much as possible. I often will wedge my elbow into my hip so that I know I won’t accidentally move during the turn or accidentally get thrown to the side because of the force.

Doesn’t mean I can’t ride through a barrel turn without holding on. But when I’m there to win, I’m going to do everything I can to help my horse and let him do his job, and stay out of his way.

Same way that when I am competing in speed events, I put rubber bands on my feet. Doesn’t mean that I can’t ride the speed events without my stirrups. But when hundreths to thousandths of a second determine the winner, I want that little extra “insurance” that I will be able to ride to the best of my ability. And again, stay out of my horse’s way instead of searching for a stirrup.

[QUOTE=beau159;7473064]
And I’ve ridden English-trained horses that had terrible stopping abilities because rein contact meant nothing to them; they just ignored it. [/QUOTE]

I agree with the rest of your post - but my horses you don’t stop them with the reins? You use your seat… And that’s the same for most horses I have ridden (all english)

I guess it’s different if you’re out after hounds or whatever and the horse tanks off though :lol:

[QUOTE=Pipkin;7478078]
I agree with the rest of your post - but my horses you don’t stop them with the reins? You use your seat… And that’s the same for most horses I have ridden (all english)[/QUOTE]

If you ride English and you truly stop your horses with absolutely no use of the reins, you are a very rare individual. One in a million, even. All the horses I have ridden English (hunt seat mostly, a little dressage) stop/are slowed down by a combination of cues that most definitely includes use of the reins. And depending on the horse, its level of training, and who usually rides the horse, rein input can be a very large percentage of the package.

I would even go so far as to say that many English horses would fail to recognize and respond to a cue that would cause a well trained western horse to come to a screeching halt.

As far as arguing with Angelico goes, I’m with aktill: don’t feed the trolls.

[QUOTE=Pipkin;7478078]
I agree with the rest of your post - but my horses you don’t stop them with the reins? You use your seat… And that’s the same for most horses I have ridden (all english)

I guess it’s different if you’re out after hounds or whatever and the horse tanks off though :lol:[/QUOTE]

Yes, correct, that the stop begins with your seat. But these horses I speak of also didn’t listen to your seat; just like they didn’t listen to the reins.

No matter how you ride, I believe that when I ask a horse to stop (even if it is a “reins only” cue) that it should mean something to the horse and they need to stop. Now. A horse that won’t stop is just plain dangerous, in my opinion.

Now, I could use that experience as a reason to bash English riding, because they were English-trained horses, and therefore all English horses must be like that. Which of course, would be an absolutely ridiculous thing to say because it would not be true, nor a valid reason to bash English riding. Hence my point to the troll.

“How is that ridiculous? Haha it’s simple, numbers. If there are 4 bad riders out of every 10 riders, in any discipline, and your discipline has the most riders… Not to mention that bad “trainers” create more bad riders. There are plenty of poor riders in every discipline, but not only is this the largest, but it is less socially accepted in the western circles to take lessons, etc.”

WOW!! Are you ignorant! I ride and show horses in western events and until my husband was laid off work, took a lesson weekly. In the summer I groomed for my trainer and took lessons daily. Pretty much everyone I know, including trail riders, take lessons if even it is just a tune up lesson every so often. The covered arena near my house opened so the barrel racers could come practice with their trainers.

I do not know where you got your views. That would be similar to me saying all dressage horses are crazy, all hunter/jumper riders are spolied and all saddleseat riders abuse their horses! Just because you have seen a handful does not make it a norm! I suggest you get out more!