When choosing an Ottb what does 'it' for you?

I’m not entirely sure that we (as a board) have ever had this exact discussion. I could be wrong but let’s hash it out.

When you’re looking at/for an ottb (not purpose bred for this discussion) what things are your deciding factors?

I know what does it for me, but I am curious what everyone else looks at. Or even more interesting, what doesn’t weigh in or do you not consider at all?

As with many things I am not wanting this to be about one way is right and another is wrong. Moreover that we can all see that though we all may prioritize different things, successful, happy repurposed animals results from all the various methods.

So what do you look for?

Emily

I love OTTBs, they’re my kryptonite. This is probably the wrong way to evaluate them, but my framework is 1. Soundness, 2. Conformation, 3. Temperament. A lot of people would argue and #3 should be #1, and they are probably right.

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What I looked for a few years and back what I look for now are totally different.

Number one thing of importance I believe is the mind. I look for a quieter type, with a good work ethic. That does not mean they can’t be hot, I love a hot horse (especially a chesnut mare :p) but they must be able to settle for the dressage.

Without a tension free test, you will never be competitive. A horse with heart can do the job 10x better than a horse without heart, and can do things you would think they should be physically unable to do. I will never again take a horse that has everything conformationally, and is super brave, but has a tense mind or terrible work ethic.

As far as conformation, I like a horse with a nice overall picture. I actually like longer backs as they tend to be superb jumpers. I like a big shoulder.

Under saddle other than above, I want a horse with a good natural gallop and super canter. The canter is the most important thing to have in an event horse for XC.

Anything else I feel can be trained, aside from obvious lameness issues, even then most can be fixed with time off and rehab.

Everyone has their own preference but the major things I look for besides soundness are character aptitude, pleasantness, and having some sort of consistent mileage record. Keep in mind that I am not buying for UL, but for my own amateur enjoyment for eventing.

I trawl through the listings fairly often – while I need another horse like a hole in the head, I do enjoy looking (and buying :winkgrin: ).

My general first criteria is I want a horse that is naturally pleasant with a soft eye. I want this attribute because I am an amateur and I want a horse who wants to work with me, not against me. This suggests a base “work ethic” in the horse’s character that IMHO you cannot train into them. I am drawn to the listings where the horse has one ear on the handler, kind of “watches” and matches the pace of his/her handler, and demonstrates a general charisma that suggests he wants to be around people. This horse happens to be one I took home, but is a good example of what I mean by a horse that is mindful of his people without being dull: click

Another good example of a horse with the kind eye/good aptitude I was impressed enough to consider despite the soundness bobbles: click

That is not the same as “good ground manners”, as I’ve found a few bad actors that have good ground manners but are not very tractable. I want a horse that has a very kind eye. I was taught to look for that eye by my mother and she has never been wrong with the horses she’s purchased.

In general, I tend to be drawn to horses that have big and uphill shoulders, broad limbs, deep stifles and hocks with lots of angle. I don’t necessarily harp too much on the neck connection or length (as a LL rider, it’s not as important as it would be for an UL trainer) but I prefer a horse that has a mid-set connection to the neck. Too low and we can have trouble with collection – too high and you run the risk of having a horse that tends to, in my experience, want to curl behind the vertical. I don’t want a long or weak back, and I will rarely consider a horse that has a short, upright femur combined with straight hocks - gooserumped & straight behind is almost always a no go for me. Some limb asymmetry is ok - the best jumper I ever owned was a quick and fast little TB that was all of 15.3h that had a slightly crooked front knee - it never bothered him.

Height and gender are generally not a factor for me - my perfect size is 15.3-16.2, though I do really well on the smaller horses (think Dixieland Band and co). I do not want a horse over 17h personally as I have found they can be quite hard to maintain soundness-wise.

As far as jewelry goes, generally, anything in the knee or fetlock (chips, fractures, etc) I will not consider. Bows, older suspensories up front, osselets, and other minor jewelry is okay. Bows do not bother me hardly ever as I find 9 times out of 10 they are caused by too much work/stress on very unbalanced feet. Correct the feet and the bows never bother them, at least in my TBs. Any sort of visible scarring on their pelvis, SI, I will not do.

When watching a video I listen and look for clarity and evenness in the steps. I want a clear 4 beat walk with lots of swing and activity in the HQ. The walk is the gait I weigh the most - good walk generally means good canter, great walk generally means fantastic canter - I want overtrack and looseness. I want the trot to look light and comfortable, 2 beat and even cadence. I expect even tracking and prefer overtracking, but sometimes with the mileage/stall time that racehorses see, you really don’t know how their trot will turn out until they’re let down. Some will surprise you how much they change in a month. I’ve only test-ridden three TBs on the track as generally, most trainers don’t want strangers on their horses unless they know you for liability reasons, but if I am riding a horse on the track around the shedrow, I am feeling them for evenness, especially behind. I do not judge their undersaddle knowledge or exuberance.

As far as movement, I’ve had 2 movers and I’ve had 10 movers. Of course I am naturally drawn to a more aesthetic, flowing movement that would be compatible in the dressage ring, but want I want more is soundness. Rarely do we get to see a track listing canter, but if you can watch their race replays it’s a good way to get a gauge for the gallop. I prefer an effortless, easy gallop that is open and not too flat or downhill.

In the mileage department, I tend to look at horses that have more than 10 starts. I want a horse with no obvious gaps in his workouts and races. I’ve found whether or not you get an unstarted horse or a horse with 60 starts, you’re going to have physical track baggage to work through/over, so I have not found that the # of starts correlates directly with the amount of baggage. Some horses come off 70 starts with their legs clean as a whistle, others are unraced because they couldn’t hold up to a basic work schedule. I find that “unstarted” does not always = clean slate in terms of body jewelry, and that it’s important to assess the horse in front of you for any potential soundness issues. TBs are bred to race so IMHO, barring freak accidents or the rare case of a horse who is just too big or too slow, I really think it’s a red flag when a TB can’t even make it to one race on their record. Conversely, I have found that the horses with 30+ starts in their career tend to be quite stoic but sound, if they can make it past 30 starts without major breakdown I think they stand a very good chance to be a solid sport-horse in a second career.

Lastly, the pedigree – there are certain lines I am drawn to time and time again and Private Account, AP Indy & sons (Old Trieste and Golden Missile especially) In Reality and horses with lots of Bold Ruler & Nasrullah in their pedigree tend to catch my eye the fastest. I really like the sport horses I am seeing come from Blackminnaloushe as of late, as well as Saddler’s Wells (Galileo, Perfect Soul). Consistently I am finding that Stonesider horses are big and gorgeous, but I am not convinced of their soundness post-track which is a shame because IMHO they are absolutely incredible movers. I’ve liked Say Florida Sandy’s kids so much that we’ve ended up with two and IMHo they are incredible horses. Both of ours (one is owned by my younger adult sister who got back into riding last year) have fantastic temperaments: they are trainable and workmanlike and while they are not difficult they are a little sensitive but sensible – just the type of horse I like.

There are very few lines, pedigree-wise, that I won’t touch but in general In Excess and his son Indian Charlie are one of them. I am very enamored with In Excess’ damline and wish there were more stallions with Sing Sing up close as IMHO he was a major contributor to soundness and jump ability but that’s probably a subject for another thread. I have also really loved the Dixie Union and DLB sons I’ve had or sat on but more than one have died unexpectedly including my own, so I give his line a wide berth despite dearly loving the gelding DLB gave me.

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Pasterns first always. Then brain and temperament.

so I know it’s not always true, but one of my collection of brilliant horse quotes is “the most expensive part of a horse is from the knee down”.

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Excellent, detailed post, beowulf. You said pretty much everything I look for.
One thing I might add, that I always looked for, in addition to the shoulder, is a deep hip angle.
I also like a mid-set neck for the same reasons.
The canter and gallop is the most important gait, and if the horse has a big walk, generally they will have that good canter. I don’t worry about the trot at all. IMO it is not a TB’s preferred gait, and most horses on the track have not really learned to trot,they mostly take a few trot steps, and then canter. Even as foals, and loose in the field, IME TBs will trot a few steps and then canter. But that is the easiest gait to improve on
A kind eye, and an intelligent. steady temperament are also very important…

My neighbours are racehorse trainers, who are resolutely independent in their training methods. The feeding of horses is flawless (they are both equine nutritionists), the horses race from home - trailer in to race and come right back and get turned back out in the large pastures with their friends. As a result, none of their horses have any track-associated habits or issues. The wife is an English event rider, and all the horses have been well started. They do not race on any meds.
Sadly, the husband is very ill, and the farm they rent has been sold. So all their horses must be sold, and good homes are the paramount importance.

Excellent post, beowulf. Not much I would disagree with there, the only thing I would add that is important to me is a deep hip angle which mirrors the shoulder angle.

I’m a sucker for a huge slopey shoulder and nice butt. I find that temperament and soundness are very hard to gauge reliably-- many of the super sweet ones I’ve met have not been ones I’ve particularly enjoyed riding, and I pick them based on that (and many of the ones with clean vettings seem to be suicidal.) Because of this, I’m done with horses I can’t try extensively under saddle/ over fences.

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When I was horse shopping for an ottb, I was looking for soundness/conformation, temperament (attitude) and a good kind eye.

I will say though, when my guy’s former owner led him out of the stall and onto the x-ties my heart for sure went pitter-patter and the first thing that caught my attention was his eye. I liked his overall look and stance and I had a good gut feeling about him (yeh, pretty scientific eh?). He was honest and bold to his fences even when the distances were awkward and he easily could have tried to run out or stop. After that I was like “sold!” I did do a pre-purchase exam.

I did look at a couple of other ottbs (since you’re not supposed to buy the first horse you see) but there were things about their confirmation (and ‘jewelry’) that I wasn’t comfortable with.

As a LL amateur with no desire to go higher than Novice, I go by gut and what my heart tells me, as long as the horse is sound.

My first OTTB was a wicked 3yo son of Devil His Due. After visiting some tracks and having no interest in anything I saw, a trainer and her assistant opened the stall door to this gorgeous black gelding, retiring after 6 starts with a minor knee chip. He left his hay to come greet me by gently laying his head in my chest and nuzzling my shoulder. The trainer looked at her assistant and said “Oh My God”. He was not a sweet horse. Of course, my heart was singing, so I bought him. The trainer’s last words to me were, “Dear god, please be careful”. Indeed, he was wicked. I had the chip removed, and after a year and a half, he became a really solid citizen and a great, personable, sweet partner. My heart was right. :slight_smile:

The second time around, I wanted a quiet horse, so I searched CANTER for horses that were handled without a chain shank and had a sweet look and demeanor. My heart sang when I found a listing for a big, slow, dopey sweetheart named Jack. I bought him the next day, and he is a delight. My heart was right again. :slight_smile:

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I’ve owned two and learned valuable lessons with each:

The first mare was Macho Uno x Grand Fan (Lear Fan): http://www.pedigreequery.com/two+grand2. I don’t know a lot about pedigrees, but from what I’ve read here, she should’ve done the job - someone enlighten me if there’s a red flag in her pedigree. Beautiful horse, fantastic conformation. She did not want to race (race twiced, finished last both times), did not want to jump, she did not want to dressage, she did not want to do anything. After 2 1/2 years of trying to make it work, I gave up - she had zero work ethic and would throw temper tantrums and I got scared.

My current mare is Catniro x Sensational Cat (Sir Cat): http://www.pedigreequery.com/sabra+zay. Again, from what I’ve read here (and someone please give proper analysis), her pedigree says she should be super quirky and sensitive. Unraced, but race-bred, had at least 5+ owners before she came to me at the age of 6 (and even to this day, we can’t figure out why she changed hands so many times!). She’s built very compact (more like a quarter horse), and she far out-jumps her size and ability. She is extremely sensitive (I think about turning and she spins around), but she’s also very willing, brave, smart enough to save my ammy butt, and easy enough to bring along myself under trainer supervision. I’ve had her for four years now, and we do the 1.0M jumpers.

All this to say, I’ll take brain, heart, and soundness over conformation and bloodlines. I like a thinking ride - one that is both forward thinking and that thinks before it reacts - sensible.

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You really cant beat Storm Cat for jumpers…so brave and catty!

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Temperment and movement, conformation and soundness.

A good temperament will go a long way to making a average horse even better. I tend to not like the straight hind legs seen so often these days on TBs. Some things I can live with, some I would not soundness wise. I like a free moving horse, not tight and choppy.

When I am looking for a personal TB for me it is more about what they bring to the table. I think of myself and what I like to ride and what is most important to me. Know your limitations…pick accordingly. What does that mean? Well for me it means I like dressage and I can fix a horse with horrible flatwork but I need a horse that gives ME confidence to want to jump the jumps. My schedule is insane so I need a horse that retains training and is forgiving to a hit or miss riding schedule. I don’t want a boring horse but I don’t want something that makes riding not FUN! Fun is at the top of my list. I want to be challenged but I don’t want to be scared. So many years of buying and selling Tb’s gives me a different perspective on soundness. I look at the horse in front of me and I consider what I will be doing with it. Reality is that I may go novice. I ride a few days a week. If they held up to racing they likely will be just fine for what I do so that is the extent of the soundness that I worry about. I have my own farm so I can live with vices (mine stall walks). I prefer a horse with a shorter more compact conformation but I can be flexible if they are brave and fun to ride.

I think you can do a lot to fix the trot but the canter is so very important especially for ammy’s who really need all the help they can get in finding a good distance to a jump. Good quality flatwork can make a trot much different.

I also travel alone a lot so I need a horse that ships well and can be handled solo. I don’t mind a bit spicey but generally sensible.

I have a ton of ammy’s that shop and I find we generally look for the same types of things! I don’t care if a horse is an asshole in general but when I am sitting on it I really want a horse to be generous. Cover for my mistakes!

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On my second OTTB… from what I learned from the first: must. have. good. feet. I know most OTTBs are usually long-toed/thin soled/etc. when they’re right off the track, but as long as they’re a decent size and can be improved through good farriery (aka, won’t need glue-ons/pads/etc for the rest of its life), then I’m happy. I learned the hard way through my first horse that you’re constantly in an uphill battle when their feet are tiny and can’t hold shoes on.

FWIW, Current guy has nice size 2 feet and [knock on wood] he hasn’t had any soundness problems. He’s seriously accident-prone, but at least he’s sound! :winkgrin: :lol:

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One of the few Storm Cat’s colts I rode was responsible for dumping me twice in one day. I will say he did have a lofty jump (into the air) and he was catty when I threw my whip at his ass as he galloped away.

He was rife with problems though. Never ran and is on record as selling for the least amount as an intact son of Storm Cat. Bonus is now he’s standing at stud. Yay.

Emily

Roberto lines can be tough. They can also be a lot of horse and if they intimidate you…they get worse. They can be very good horses but sounds like it wasn’t the right horse for you.

for me…it depends on what I’m buying for. What I look for in resell is different if I was looking for myself.

But I can share what sold me on my current personal horse Porter…I liked his face, he was a nice type. Maybe a little too short backed and he certainly doesn’t has perfect conformation. Crappy trot…but to die for canter and good walk. He likes to jump and now is quite good but when I bought him you couldn’t really tell. But the entire time I tried him…he flicked an ear back to me to check in. Just had this what are we doing and excited to be doing something. He is a border collie in a horse suit. And just fun fun fun to ride. Not easy to ride well…but still fun. And that is why I still have him.

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As an older rider who does the very lowest levels of the sport for fun, a good mind is the most important quality to me. I don’t need fantastic gaits or a horse who can jump 4’. I do need a kind horse with a good work ethic. I see people with horses who they have to spend the first 30 minutes of the ride just calming them down before any work can be done. It’s just not worth it to me.

Deal breakers are uneven hips and anything that remotely represents an SI issue. A prominent hunters bump and I’m done. I’ll take a horse with a club foot as long as it’s a very mild grade.

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I should say…I never go looking for my “forever” horse. I go looking for a fun project. I think they become your forever horse once you have had them and gotten to know them. But then I’m not some one who believes in love at first sight…just “like” at first sight :slight_smile:

And what kind of horse that I find “fun” and interesting…may not be the perfect horse for someone else…just like their dream ride may totally not be my sort of ride.

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