When did you Spay/Neuter Your Dog

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8301746]
This is the article that I’ve seen. I think it’s pretty well researched and covers both sides, with a hefty reference list.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I have one 11 yo girl spayed after her first or second heat, and one 3 yo girl that’s still intact. I do prefer to wait and just don’t find intact girls to be an issue.

CATS, on the other hand, get fixed WELL before puberty. There’s nothing worse than a cat in heat! :lol:[/QUOTE]

That article doesn’t touch on the management of neutered/intact dogs, that does make a difference, huge one in pet homes, where females do get pregnant and male dogs want to roam and fight and neutering avoids those problems.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Simkie;8301746]
This is the article that I’ve seen. I think it’s pretty well researched and covers both sides, with a hefty reference list.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

I have one 11 yo girl spayed after her first or second heat, and one 3 yo girl that’s still intact. I do prefer to wait and just don’t find intact girls to be an issue.

CATS, on the other hand, get fixed WELL before puberty. There’s nothing worse than a cat in heat! :lol:[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting that. The references section certainly appears impressive at first glance, but the conclusion section of the article indicates that there isn’t much of a conclusion at all. The fact that the author is upfront about the fact that the impact of spaying and neutering on population control was excluded in this study was interesting to me, given that the conclusion was more of a non-conclusion. It seems to me that a very large percentage of dog owners are relatively (at the very least) ignorant when it comes to control over their dogs. This would seem to be an argument FOR encouraging spay/neuter before maturity, since the health risks are minimal compared to later surgery, but the risk for unwanted reproduction is likely much higher.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8301774]
Thanks for posting that. The references section certainly appears impressive at first glance, but the conclusion section of the article indicates that there isn’t much of a conclusion at all. The fact that the author is upfront about the fact that the impact of spaying and neutering on population control was excluded in this study was interesting to me, given that the conclusion was more of a non-conclusion. It seems to me that a very large percentage of dog owners are relatively (at the very least) ignorant when it comes to control over their dogs. This would seem to be an argument FOR encouraging spay/neuter before maturity, since the health risks are minimal compared to later surgery, but the risk for unwanted reproduction is likely much higher.[/QUOTE]

We were both on the same track there.

Having worked with our dog club and the shelter, that is a huge plus on the early rather than later recommendation for the general public.

Now, those in dogs, those that can manage entire dogs well, why not, if that is what they choose?
Although pyometra is a real concern I would not wish on anyone, having seen several owners over the years lose their pet to that and breast cancer.
I have seen more incontinence in entire females than spayed one.
Ours never became incontinent, not even in old age and all were spayed early.
Guess we were lucky.

Over the decades, there seems to have been as many intact breeder’s dogs that had this or that problem than neutered ones.
That is life and multi-factored, not enough in those studies to make neutering after puberty a sensible protocol in general.
Of course, plenty in our dog club disagree and take their chances that way.
It is the owner’s call after all.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Bluey;8301786]
Now, those in dogs, those that can manage entire dogs well, why not, if that is what they choose?[/QUOTE]

I agree with this; what I don’t agree with is veterinarians or anyone else encouraging later surgery to the average pet owner. That seems to be equal to adding a boost to the overpopulation problem this country already faces.

[stb]

I have had several competition dogs (Hunt tests and obedience) and one dog that I showed in conformation shows. If you intend to pursue sports with your dogs it is generally recommended that you not spay or neuter early. Most breeders encourage puppy buyers to wait at least one year before spay/neuter, and they prefer two years - at least in the labrador world.

When dogs are spayed or neutered before skeletal maturity they no longer have the sex hormones that “tell” their epiphyseal plates to close. So, a dog that is spayed or neutered young will be leggier and weedier looking than one who is intact. Intact dogs will have better muscle development as well. Early spay/neuter dogs have altered leg angles as a result of their long bones being longer than nature intended, and this can contribute to ACL injuries in particular. Also, early spay/neuter dogs have higher incidences of multiple cancers - osteosarcomas in particular come to mind and I believe hemangiosarcomas as well. Also, female dogs often have inverted vulvas that can cause a lifetime of problems with an early spay - allowed to have one heat they usually pop out and cause no more problems.

I never spay or neuter before the age of 2. Heats are not that hard to deal with, if you are conscientious, and all boy dogs at my house are expected to act politely whether they are neutered or intact. Vets push early spay and neuter because they don’t trust the average client to be responsible enough to prevent an accident - and very often they are right. However, the vets that I know don’t spay/neuter their own dogs until they are skeletally mature or until the girls have had at least one heat.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=stb;8301812]
I have had several competition dogs (Hunt tests and obedience) and one dog that I showed in conformation shows. If you intend to pursue sports with your dogs it is generally recommended that you not spay or neuter early. Most breeders encourage puppy buyers to wait at least one year before spay/neuter, and they prefer two years - at least in the labrador world.

When dogs are spayed or neutered before skeletal maturity they no longer have the sex hormones that “tell” their epiphyseal plates to close. So, a dog that is spayed or neutered young will be leggier and weedier looking than one who is intact. Intact dogs will have better muscle development as well. Early spay/neuter dogs have altered leg angles as a result of their long bones being longer than nature intended, and this can contribute to ACL injuries in particular. Also, early spay/neuter dogs have higher incidences of multiple cancers - osteosarcomas in particular come to mind and I believe hemangiosarcomas as well. Also, female dogs often have inverted vulvas that can cause a lifetime of problems with an early spay - allowed to have one heat they usually pop out and cause no more problems.

I never spay or neuter before the age of 2. Heats are not that hard to deal with, if you are conscientious, and all boy dogs at my house are expected to act politely whether they are neutered or intact. Vets push early spay and neuter because they don’t trust the average client to be responsible enough to prevent an accident - and very often they are right. However, the vets that I know don’t spay/neuter their own dogs until they are skeletally mature or until the girls have had at least one heat.[/QUOTE]

Can you provide a link to a study that definitively proves your assertions? And how much longer, on average, are the limbs of a dog that is neutered at 6 months compared to one year? Two years? Without scientific proof, I have a really hard time believing that the difference is enough to cause ACL issues, and I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the percentage of ACL injuries in dogs is not much different with respect to age at neutering.

[lesson_junkie]

I have to confess I feel sick after reading that study. At my feet is a lovely gentleman of a Doberman, less a hind leg at 7 years old, because of osteosarcoma. The vet was blunt-anything past 6 more months will be a gift.

We had him neutered at 6 months.Had I known, I would have waited. Did I make my dog sick, thinking I was doing the right thing?

I will talk to my vet about waiting longer with my next large breed dog.

[vacation1]

It doesn’t seem like there’s much actual proof that delayed s/n creates a significant health benefit/reduction of risk, yet this idea seems to be the hot story suddenly in dog magazines, etc. It feels like something being pushed by the AKC and its various legitimate and illegitimate bedfellows as a backdoor to get around mandatory spay/neuter, which all those groups oppose with great bitterness.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=lesson junkie;8301851]
I have to confess I feel sick after reading that study. At my feet is a lovely gentleman of a Doberman, less a hind leg at 7 years old, because of osteosarcoma. The vet was blunt-anything past 6 more months will be a gift.

We had him neutered at 6 months.Had I known, I would have waited. Did I make my dog sick, thinking I was doing the right thing?

I will talk to my vet about waiting longer with my next large breed dog.[/QUOTE]

I’m so sorry for you and your dog that you are going through this, but please don’t add to the heartbreak by blaming yourself. Osteosarcoma happens in dogs that are neutered at all ages. It even happens to dogs that are never neutered. Just like cancer happens to people who exercise regularly, and also in those who don’t. It happens to people who eat healthy, as well as to those who don’t. It happens to people who are not overweight, just as it happens to those who are. Cancer doesn’t discriminate, whether you are a human or a dog. Don’t do this to yourself.

[chantaltoo]

We had our Vizsla neutered at 18 months, were trying to wait 'til 2 but didn’t make it it for behavioral reasons, aggression in the dog park that is. Bone growth was one of our main concerns. This article has some info on that.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/spay-neuter-and-joint-disease/

I can’t find the article I really liked but it had more good info about bone growth, though the one above does summarize the main points.

We had no issues with wandering, humping, or marking territory. He was a well-behaved intact dog except when it would go wrong at the dog park. And being a high energy dog, he needs to be exercised.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=chantaltoo;8301900]
We had our Vizsla neutered at 18 months, were trying to wait 'til 2 but didn’t make it it for behavioral reasons, aggression in the dog park that is. Bone growth was one of our main concerns. This article has some info on that.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/spay-neuter-and-joint-disease/

I can’t find the article I really liked but it had more good info about bone growth, though the one above does summarize the main points.

We had no issues with wandering, humping, or marking territory. He was a well-behaved intact dog except when it would go wrong at the dog park. And being a high energy dog, he needs to be exercised.[/QUOTE]

Did I miss the part of that article where the references are located? If not, that’s an opinion piece, and it doesn’t answer my question about the difference in bone length between a dog that is neutered at 6 months compared to one neutered at 1 year and 2 years.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=lesson junkie;8301851]
I have to confess I feel sick after reading that study. At my feet is a lovely gentleman of a Doberman, less a hind leg at 7 years old, because of osteosarcoma. The vet was blunt-anything past 6 more months will be a gift.

We had him neutered at 6 months.Had I known, I would have waited. Did I make my dog sick, thinking I was doing the right thing?

I will talk to my vet about waiting longer with my next large breed dog.[/QUOTE]

Ask any vet, they will tell you osteosarcoma happens in all bigger dogs, if neutered or not.
Several of our club had their dogs with it, many that were also conformation dogs and so not neutered.

It is really, really sad for those that come down with it, sorry, hoping you have some more good time with him.

[lesson_junkie]

Thanks, you guys, he is doing pretty well, though he is not the same dog. He is a big, deep chested dog, jumping is not an option any more. I have to help him into the truck now, and he has a harder time on trail rides than I expected. He doesn’t seem uncomfortable, sometimes just puzzled that he can’t do something he’s done before, like stand on his hind legs and look out the picture window.

[skipollo]

Our lab was done at around 6mos., and our beagle was done a week or two before we adopted her (she was a 2yo when we adopted.) Lab never had issues and lived until she was 12, and our beagle doesn’t have any issues (she’s 4 now.)

If I got a puppy now, I’d shoot for between 6mos-1 year, whatever my vet recommended for the puppy’s particular breed and situation.

[chism]

[QUOTE=BuddyRoo;8301429]
It certainly is messier and requires more packing material when you spay a dog in heat or a pregnant. And the organs are bigger when an animal is an adult. But I’m a little baffled by the 2-3 mos after a heat. We just charged extra for supplies if they were in heat or pregnant at the time of the surgery. That’s interesting.[/QUOTE]

HE said he did not want spay her during heat, due to a higher risk of hemmorrhage, and preferred to wait the 2-3 months until all the hormonal effects of her heat were gone. I don’t mind, she most likely won’t go into heat again for 5 months or so, so we’ve got it covered.

[goodhors]

I waited until he was about 7 months, to be almost his full size as a smaller dog. Big reason was to allow his urethra tube to be it’s maximum size, prevent any urinary problems later. Friend the Vet Tech, her husband is a Vet, both said animal can have more urethra issues with getting neutered too young, both dogs and cats.

He is a Sheltie x Cocker Spaniel cross, nice size at 30#s, lower dog in the group, but brave with his buddy behind him! He was still squatting at neuter time, submissive to strong lead dog in the group. Still squats to pee, now going on 3 yrs. Never has lifted a leg so far as I know. He is a no-quit dog in play, just goes and goes, wearing out even the Daughter’s two Heelers when they visit.

My regular pet Vet will spay or neuter young or at older ages. He doesn’t recommend waiting at all, which my Tech friend says should happen with very young animals. A larger dog neutering should wait to a later age, so it can get the size needed on all his parts, before neutering stops that growth. Little dogs get physically grown at a younger age than large dogs do, so waiting is better for larger breeds or mixes. My big dog, a Bouvier, was still very puppyish at 18 months, grew and filled out until almost 2yrs. She was still on Puppy Chow to insure she had enough Calcium and other needed nutrients her big size needed. All our Bouvier, GSD puppies took longer to finish growth because they were big breed animals. So neutering them would need to wait as well.

[MustangSavvy]

As soon as possible, all three of my dogs were neutered/spayed by the shelter I adopted them from at 2 months old. There are WAY to many unwanted animals to do it any other way. The fact that three to four million unwanted animals are dying is why spaying/neutering are so important.

[MustangSavvy]

[QUOTE=lesson junkie;8301851]
I have to confess I feel sick after reading that study. At my feet is a lovely gentleman of a Doberman, less a hind leg at 7 years old, because of osteosarcoma. The vet was blunt-anything past 6 more months will be a gift.

We had him neutered at 6 months.Had I known, I would have waited. Did I make my dog sick, thinking I was doing the right thing?

I will talk to my vet about waiting longer with my next large breed dog.[/QUOTE]

Neutering had nothing to do with your dogs osteosarcoma. It happens in both neutered and un-altered males. The giant breeds at greatest risk for developing osteosarcoma include Great Danes, Saint Bernards, Great Pyrenees, Newfoundlands, Bernese Mountain Dogs, and Irish Wolfhounds. Large breeds such as Rottweilers, Labradors, Golden Retrievers, Shepherds, Dobermans, Weimaraners, and Boxers are also at an increased risk.

It does not appear that osteosarcoma is preventable. Because of some strong breed correlations, any breed line that has a history of osteosarcoma should be examined closely prior to breeding. Unfortunately, we do not completely understand the cause of osteosarcoma.

[stb]

Anyone interested in further reading on this subject should google Chris Zink, DVM and spay/neuter study. She is a noted expert in the performance dog world and has some good information available.

Waiting is not for everyone, and it’s certainly not a cure-all for preventing all cancers, either. Lots of dogs who are spayed/neutered late still get cancers of all types. I recently lost 2 girls who were spayed at the ages of 2 and 6 - both to cancer. Many people do not want to manage females in heat, or do not live with a set up that makes it doable, I understand that. I also fully understand why vets push the early spay/neuter, because they deal with pet owners every day who are less than diligent about their pet’s care.

As far as limb length - I don’t know the stats but I can tell you that it is enough of a difference that is is readily apparent to a knowledgable dog person. Particularly in labradors, where a heavy boned, muscular appearance is desirable - a dog that was s/n early will look noticeably different than one who was allowed to remain intact until mature.

When my show dog who was also a Master Hunter and had obedience titles had her litter of pups I requested that they not s/n until at least one year of age (2 is better) That is pretty standard in the lab world. Frankly, if I didn’t think someone was responsible enough to prevent a pregnancy then I wasn’t going to sell one of my precious pups to them anyway.

Again, I’m not advocating that everyone wait - because everyone isn’t going to put the effort in to prevent a pregnancy. What I am saying is that early s/n is not a benign practice. While it does lower the chances of some cancers, it also raises the chances of others. Also, I have personally had two girls who became hypothyroid and also developed urinary incontinence issues after s/n. Just do some research and make the best decision for you and your lifestyle.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=goodhors;8302006]
He was still squatting at neuter time, submissive to strong lead dog in the group. Still squats to pee, now going on 3 yrs. Never has lifted a leg so far as I know. [/QUOTE]

Some males always lift their leg and some always squat, regardless of neutering. My unneutered male starting lifting his leg around 10 weeks, and my old dog, who was neutered at 15 months still squats most of the time. I know a lot of unneutered dogs that squat.

Obviously as males go through puberty and learn to mark, they may lift their leg more than they used to; but I wouldn’t assume that neutering will necessarily prevent a dog from lifting their leg to pee on stuff.