When do you put a sound horse in shoes?

[Displaced_Yankee]

So when do you put a sound, comfortable, barefoot horse in shoes? When you are not unhappy with your trimmer?

While my horse is always sound (8 year old, Connemara cross, I’ve owned all his life) but I feel like he may benefit from some sort of support as we push on through first level dressage and delve to jumping. It may be conformation, feet or training but I feel like he really lacks an ability to sit and push from behind. But I don’t have any other good REASON to put him in shoes (regular vet, chiro, saddle fit, etc).

He is trimmed every 4ish weeks in the spring and summer and the trimmer tries to stretch it to 6 weeks in the winter. I know 4 weeks sounds short, but there is always plenty of hoof for her to trim and he has NEVER taken an ouchy step after trimming (so she isn’t taking too much off for the sake of taking hoof off every 4 weeks). He has good, healthy hoof growth and 2 vets are not dissatisfied with his feet.

These last two cycles his feet have looked pretty rough by week four and he had taken several chunks of hoof off. I’m not sure if it is the work he is doing (mostly first level dressage 3 days a week) or hard, dry ground versus hard, pony feet.

The current trimmer only does barefoot trims, hoof boots and glue on shoes. I don’t have a lot of interest in hoof boots as I cannot compete in recognized shows in them. I don’t have experience with glue ons. While I love my trimmer, she takes things incredibly personally. If I switched to another farrier to try him in steel shoes, I don’t think she would take me back.

I am going to have my vet evaluate his feet when she is out for fall shots. We did a full work up on him in April. I suspected he needed his hocks injected. She said she would take my money and inject his hocks but didn’t think it would help. She prescribed chiro, Adequan and stifle conditioning instead :rolleyes:.

Thoughts? Try him in shoes (fronts, then add hinds if it shows improvement?)? Do nothing because I don’t have a reason to put shoes on?

I’m not opposed to shoes of any kind. I just feel like I am supposed to have a reason.

[anon6003733]

del

[SolarFlare]

Would your trimmer have any demo hoof boots to just try out, to see if you feel your horse is pushing better with some hoof protection? Or someone else in your barn you could borrow from? That way, you could test out whether you feel any difference before possibly alienating the trimmer.

Although I’ll say that’s totally unprofessional to be upset with you for trying something she doesn’t even offer (if you go the route of shoes)…nothing you can do about that though.

[Simkie]

Honestly, I put them in shoes when they go into serious work. I’ve just had too many that I though were fine barefoot that just REALLY IMPROVED when shod all the way around.

That is unfortunate that your trimmer takes things so personally :-/ That alone would have me looking for someone else–that sort of ego is exhausting. It sounds like you’re not terribly happy with her right now, so poke around and find someone who comes recommended who could shoe or just trim your horse.

[hank]

Easiest way to tell if you and the horse like shoes better, is to try them. Since you mentioned push and sit, I wouldn’t fool around, I’d do all four. Trimmer gets knickers in a knot? Well, that’s her problem.

[Displaced_Yankee]

@SolarFlare , @Simkie and @hank Thanks all. You’ve largely confirmed that I don’t have a lot to lose in testing shoes.

I’m actually not unhappy with her work. She is on time and does a great job. She’s kept him sound for 7 years, so there is that. It’s the preaching that comes with it…

I have a farrier in mind that I’d like to reach out to. I’ve seen his work over the years as an assistant trainer and assisted him with horses.

SolarFlare has a great idea of trying to test boots. I wouldn’t make a move until March or so (tax season makes it tough to ride regularly January-February) so that may be an option.

[Mango20]

My horse’s first shoes were a “try it and see” situation. My farrier also agreed she might like a little extra support. There is a difference in her dressage work with shoes. It’s not huge, but it’s there. I didn’t notice a difference with jumping, and she did do an early spring event at training level this year while still barefoot. She has great feet and I still pull the shoes every winter, and she’s still fine to work and/or trail ride barefoot. But once spring comes around, the shoes go back on.

[J-Lu]

I have only put my young horses in shoes when they needed to be in shoes. That becomes evident if they wear the hoof improperly or become sore with increased work. I have mostly trusted shoers who were also good trimmers. And my vets. The shoers explained to me when problems cropped up and I pretty much knew it anyway. I tried to remove back shoes once and by vaccination time, my vet recommended he go back in shoes due to soreness in the back, he did. In my experience, most horses in regular work need shoes, but the ones with good feet can last much longer. No one WANTS a farrier bill!

[J-Lu]

@anon6003733

It’s easiest to have a farrier who is well versed in both shoeing and barefoot trims. We’re on a schedule of back and forth around fitting up season, competitions, down time and winter training.

None of this would work if we had a farrier who wasn’t knowledgeable all around and who took things personally. He is a great help in the decision making around shoes/no shoes and I’d frankly be at loose ends without him.

What is your competition schedule? How intensively do you compete? Would you mind explaining your fitting up and showing seasons (time of year), your downtime (do you ride them? How long does this last? You pull shoes?), and your winter training (I assume is very South? Do you put the shoes back on at this time?)

Thanks!

[anon6003733]

del

[S1969]

@Displaced Yankee

While my horse is always sound (8 year old, Connemara cross, I’ve owned all his life) but I feel like he may benefit from some sort of support as we push on through first level dressage and delve to jumping. It may be conformation, feet or training but I feel like he really lacks an ability to sit and push from behind. But I don’t have any other good REASON to put him in shoes (regular vet, chiro, saddle fit, etc).

I am going to have my vet evaluate his feet when she is out for fall shots. We did a full work up on him in April. I suspected he needed his hocks injected. She said she would take my money and inject his hocks but didn’t think it would help. She prescribed chiro, Adequan and stifle conditioning instead :rolleyes:.

Thoughts? Try him in shoes (fronts, then add hinds if it shows improvement?)? Do nothing because I don’t have a reason to put shoes on?

I’m not opposed to shoes of any kind. I just feel like I am supposed to have a reason.

So, these two paragraphs make me question whether your horse is as “sound” as you describe, I would call him “sound with maintenance.” Which at 8 is a little concerning.

I would definitely discuss with your vet the issue you stated in the first paragraph here - that you think shoes may help the horse’s ability to “sit back and push from behind.” If the real issue is stifle or hock related, I suppose shoes might help, but might not (I don’t know?) What stifle conditioning have you done, and did it help? What about Adequan and chiro, etc? Did you do these, and did see any improvement?

For shoes to help with stifle or hock issues, I think you’re in need of a really good farrier, not just someone to nail shoes on and see if they help (which I would say is worth trying if someone thinks that their horse is just ouchy on rough terrain or hard ground). I definitely don’t see how boots would help.

The issue of broken/chipped hooves once or twice a year might be climate related and in itself wouldn’t be a reason for me to change things - but it sounds like that isn’t the real reason for thinking about shoes.

[kande04]

I only add shoes if I need more traction or protection and boots won’t work. I’m also aware of how easy it is to think shoes helped a little because I just spent $200 getting them nailed on, so I try to be very careful to evaluate “blindly”, which of course, is impossible to do.

[Guilherme]

You put shoes on your horse when the Golden Rule of Equine Husbandry* says to do so!!!

Since “need” is the base standard ask yourself, “what will my horse gain from being shod balanced against what will be lost?” Take a yellow pad, make two columns, Plus and Minus, and write down, in order of importance, the items on each side. Then sit back and read it. In the end you’ll find almost always it’s a “judgement call” there are no absolute answers one way or the other.

There’s nothing wrong with a “test.” Just make it a good test and use competent farrier who will trim the the horse to anatomical correctness and correctly apply properly fitting shoes.

Clearly in all this there can me “many a slip twixt cup and lip.” The owner’s duty is to exercise supervision over all this and then decide what happens next.

One way to set up a “baseline” for analysis of the test is to video the horse doing routine work before the shoeing and then, after a week or so, do it again. And then maybe one more time a couple of weeks after that. Now you have three objective views of the horse’'s performance and your decisions can be based upon sound, real time analysis not what you remember from long ago or are mis-interpreting 'cause you just spent $200 and don’t want to think it was money wasted.

The video camera, in many ways, is one of the most useful equine training devices ever invented!

Good luck in your project.

G.

*“You give the horse what it needs, when it needs it, and in appropriate quantity and quality.”

[Displaced_Yankee]

@S1969

So, these two paragraphs make me question whether your horse is as “sound” as you describe, I would call him “sound with maintenance.” Which at 8 is a little concerning.

I would definitely discuss with your vet the issue you stated in the first paragraph here - that you think shoes may help the horse’s ability to “sit back and push from behind.” If the real issue is stifle or hock related, I suppose shoes might help, but might not (I don’t know?) What stifle conditioning have you done, and did it help? What about Adequan and chiro, etc? Did you do these, and did see any improvement?

Eh, fair.

Well, my vet couldn’t find an issue with his hocks, so we did nothing with them. Chiro and saddle fit are done about every 6 months as maintenance or sooner if a specific issue arises. Both always help.

This was my first try with Adequan. My trainer felt that it helped. We both agreed that he was much more supple.

Given my work schedule, January-March he only goes about twice a week so we lose a lot of fitness and his stifles get weak? loose?.

So for the past two years, I’ve incorporated cavelettis into our back to work fitness regime. Approximately every other ride is caveletti day where we build up the number of poles, number of passes through, different spacing over time. We don’t have a lot of great hills, but there are some easy grades we walk up and down as we warm up/cool out. So yes, the stifle conditioning helps, but I think that is part of legging up his overall fitness too. I think he is a guy that will always need additional attention in that area.

The farrier that I would reach out to does do dressage and eventers. He has the ability to do pads, wedges, etc and does work with my vet. He is more than “just nail a steel shoe on”, which is nice (should we need it).

I’ll have the vet out next week and work him up again. He is much more fit NOW than when she saw him in April.

[Bluey]

@Displaced Yankee

So when do you put a sound, comfortable, barefoot horse in shoes? When you are not unhappy with your trimmer?

While my horse is always sound (8 year old, Connemara cross, I’ve owned all his life) but I feel like he may benefit from some sort of support as we push on through first level dressage and delve to jumping. It may be conformation, feet or training but I feel like he really lacks an ability to sit and push from behind. But I don’t have any other good REASON to put him in shoes (regular vet, chiro, saddle fit, etc).

He is trimmed every 4ish weeks in the spring and summer and the trimmer tries to stretch it to 6 weeks in the winter. I know 4 weeks sounds short, but there is always plenty of hoof for her to trim and he has NEVER taken an ouchy step after trimming (so she isn’t taking too much off for the sake of taking hoof off every 4 weeks). He has good, healthy hoof growth and 2 vets are not dissatisfied with his feet.

These last two cycles his feet have looked pretty rough by week four and he had taken several chunks of hoof off. I’m not sure if it is the work he is doing (mostly first level dressage 3 days a week) or hard, dry ground versus hard, pony feet.

The current trimmer only does barefoot trims, hoof boots and glue on shoes. I don’t have a lot of interest in hoof boots as I cannot compete in recognized shows in them. I don’t have experience with glue ons. While I love my trimmer, she takes things incredibly personally. If I switched to another farrier to try him in steel shoes, I don’t think she would take me back.

I am going to have my vet evaluate his feet when she is out for fall shots. We did a full work up on him in April. I suspected he needed his hocks injected. She said she would take my money and inject his hocks but didn’t think it would help. She prescribed chiro, Adequan and stifle conditioning instead :rolleyes:.

Thoughts? Try him in shoes (fronts, then add hinds if it shows improvement?)? Do nothing because I don’t have a reason to put shoes on?

I’m not opposed to shoes of any kind. I just feel like I am supposed to have a reason.

There are centuries of knowledge about horse feet and ways to protect them.

Our horses over decades have been mostly barefoot … unless we are training or using them seriously.

Why put shoes when a horse is in hard work?
Why not help the horse do that hard work best we can?

What that means is, where feet won’t be wearing off more than they grow and the ground is not making them ouchy, horses don’t need shoeing.
When in hard work and hooves are wearing faster than they grow, where extra traction and protection helps, then we have all kinds of ways to address that, shoeing a basic, true and tested one.

Over decades I have seen people with barefoot horses insisting they were fine, but were definitely ouchy here and there, some getting worse over time trying to get barefoot to work.
That is bad animal husbandry with any excuse.
Why ask a horse to work for and with you and not give it the best you can to do so, not have to tough it out and work under less than best conditions?

That you are helping the horse do its job easier is one important reason to put shoes on a horse and also an important reason not to be hardheaded and make the horse cope unnecessarily barefoot, just because some may not like shoeing horses.

[S1969]

@Displaced Yankee

The farrier that I would reach out to does do dressage and eventers. He has the ability to do pads, wedges, etc and does work with my vet. He is more than “just nail a steel shoe on”, which is nice (should we need it).

I’ll have the vet out next week and work him up again. He is much more fit NOW than when she saw him in April.

So yes, I’d talk to the vet and the farrier, and see what the farrier says. I’m not saying this farrier would “just nail a shoe on” - but other people have suggested just give it a try and see if it helps - and I think you would want to have a deeper discussion about the goals and the options with the farrier.

[kande04]

@Guilherme

One way to set up a “baseline” for analysis of the test is to video the horse doing routine work before the shoeing and then, after a week or so, do it again. And then maybe one more time a couple of weeks after that. Now you have three objective views of the horse’'s performance and your decisions can be based upon sound, real time analysis not what you remember from long ago or are mis-interpreting 'cause you just spent $200 and don’t want to think it was money wasted.

And then more videos at the end of the shoeing cycle, and later, after the horse has been through multiple shoeing cycles.

I too, was thinking video, but many feel like they can feel differences that don’t show up on video. Maybe video with bell boots to try to hide the hooves, and then show it to others to see if they can see any differences between barefoot and shod?

The video camera, in many ways, is one of the most useful equine training devices ever invented!

I think so too, and enjoy sitting down and watching and editing the videos almost as much as I enjoy riding. I may never look at them again, but do enjoy watching them and planning what I want to do next.

[barnesthenoble]

Dissenting opinion here…as a pretty diehard barefoot convert who still competes dressage and eventing, on OTTBs who frequently come with underdeveloped or poorly developed feet and nutritionally compromised feet, why not try boots and/or glue ons? If you are happy with your trimmer, and she offers hoof protection, why not explore that option? Is cost the prohibiting factor?

I use boots year round on the horses who need them, and when we are competing we will glue a set on. If you are competing rigorously all summer, just keep him in a set of glue ons for six weeks at a time. If you only compete a few times a year, it’s no biggie to apply them only as needed. I can legitimately say that I have not had an issue that could not be addressed with creative booting, padding, and manipulation of those materials. And I have pulled many a horse out of fancy shoeing packages without a disruption of work with judicious use of boots or glue ons and different padding in them.

If the horse has good feet, you will reduce the hoof’s ability to expand and contract, risk frog and digital cushion atrophy, and greatly increase the concussive forces on the leg by adding shoes. Not to mention, you will be out a trimmer who you seem to be pleased with. By all means, if it is a financial issue or an issue with the trimmer, look elsewhere. But if you just want to see how he would be with more protection, try boots or glue ons and see what he does. If you see an improvement, awesome! Time to decide how you want to proceed. If not, you haven’t burned any bridges.

[beau159]

@Displaced Yankee

It may be conformation, feet or training but I feel like he really lacks an ability to sit and push from behind. But I don’t have any other good REASON to put him in shoes (regular vet, chiro, saddle fit, etc).

We did a full work up on him in April. I suspected he needed his hocks injected.

A horse that doesn’t want to sit and push from behind and maybe has some hock soundness issues, I would personally try injecting … before I tried shoes. JMO.

Did you xray the hocks?

[Displaced_Yankee]

@barnesthenoble

Dissenting opinion here…as a pretty diehard barefoot convert who still competes dressage and eventing, on OTTBs who frequently come with underdeveloped or poorly developed feet and nutritionally compromised feet, why not try boots and/or glue ons? If you are happy with your trimmer, and she offers hoof protection, why not explore that option? Is cost the prohibiting factor?

Happy to hear your thoughts. I am not interested in the boot route. From the various people that I have spoken with about it, they say they are difficult to get on correctly and they usually have to dismount and adjust them once or twice a ride. This includes a friend who I recommended this trimmer to. My (our) trimmer recommended and fit these boots. Friend’s horse is not is serious work, so she deals with it but doesn’t care for them.

Glue ons: my first post mentions that I have zero experience with glue ons. Are they steel? A polymer? How do they come off (as in, how do you pull and reset/put on a new set)? Are you stuck on a 6-week schedule? This won’t be an issue with my horse, but what happens if they overreach and pull a shoe? Do they take a bunch of hoof with it? How do you shape it? Educate me, I am not opposed to them. Cost…not too much of a factor…can you give a range of your cost for a full set of glue ons? I don’t imagine its THAT much more over steel shoes.

@beau159

A horse that doesn’t want to sit and push from behind and maybe has some hock soundness issues, I would personally try injecting … before I tried shoes. JMO.

Did you xray the hocks?

This was my first thought and why I had him worked up in April. She watched me ride, we lunged him and did flexions. I am an accountant, not a vet, so when she said “I can, but I don’t think thats the problem” I listened. I think having her out again to reevaluate is ideal. This vet, and his chiro vet, have known him since he was a weanling.

And we are not asking for piaffe/passage. Just some push for a lengthening and a little more sit to come back. He tries, it just feels more difficult for him. He does not wring his tail, suck back, root, misbehave, etc. He is NOT a stoic horse. He lets me know when he is not comfortable (which is not what I feel now, he is trying)