cannot be stated enough, the rein back must have forward inclination.
The horse must be forward and up in the shoulders and have the strength to stay there in the halt. If he is dropping downward through the back and shoulders as he backs, you are defeating the training.
I would introduce when you reliably have halt and trot forward well established
I would teach it early. Not necessarily the show-ready type of reinback, but a basic “I ask you to step back so you do.” Doesn’t have to be pretty, just functional.
OP, do you ever trail ride? Sometimes things click better when you get out of the arena and have a purpose for what you are doing. Or, you could even set something up in the arena. Take opening a gate, for example. Lots of great work in there to school your horse in a “useful” way versus just doing something for the sake of doing it. Walk up to the gate; halt. Take a couple steps forward or sideways or back to get yourself in a good position. Maintain halt while you lean over to unlock gate. Hold top of gate; take a step back and/or sideways . . . and another step and another step until the gate is open. Hold gate and maybe do a TOF or side pass to position yourself to the opening. Go through opening.
I find more purpose-driven riding helps me if I’m stuck with something.
Also, though, training isn’t always pretty. I don’t mean to be overly forceful or abusive, but sometimes you have to turn up the volume to have the message be heard. Offer the lightest cue you can offer. If the horse doesn’t respond, make it louder until he does respond. Release immediately and just let it soak. Try again with the lightest cue and proceed according to the response you get. It is like training them to go off the leg. See how little you can do, but if they don’t go forward, prepare to back up your request with more. So you’ve hit a road block. You need to stand firm and show the horse the way through to the other side. Release is the reward - do it often and with good timing so that your horse understands when he gets the right answer.
Might be worth mentally reviewing the steps you take and seeing if you can break them down even further. Perhaps there’s some disconnect there where you think your horse is getting it because they are taking a couple steps back, but they really aren’t actually understanding your set of aids.
I will say that I did notice in backing that my pony preferred one bit over the other. In going forward I didn’t notice too much because we were at a stage of going on a loose rein so contact wasn’t the goal. But in backing, she clearly liked the loose ring bits versus the D-ring or eggbuts - she was much quieter in the mouth and softer through the body.
[QUOTE=Mondo;8990613]
Kcmel brings up a great point. You don’t want to school the rb until the halt is well established. Otherwise you can create a habit of stepping back in the halt (because the horse begins to anticipate a rb). The only other caveat I would add, is that you should NEVER, EVER use the rb as a punishment - which is what I see western riders do FREQUENTLY. I’ve seen a western trainer back a horse up all the way around the ring. What does that teach the horse except that you are cruel and quick to anger? SMH[/QUOTE]
I am very familiar with that habit. My last horse was a wonderful talented little paint mare who had been broke western (presumably by a reining or reined cow horse trainer). She had a very good whoa to say the least. 
At our first ever dressage lesson (in a clinic with a BNT) the clinician got a good laugh when he asked for a halt and we did a sliding stop. :lol:
It took some time and patience, but I was able to fix her halts. I took her from intro to first level schooling second when I had to retire her due to injury. 
Its a bit of a shock to the system going from a familiar well broke horse to a green as grass youngster, but I’m enjoying the challenge!
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8990740]
I would teach it early. Not necessarily the show-ready type of reinback, but a basic “I ask you to step back so you do.” Doesn’t have to be pretty, just functional.
OP, do you ever trail ride? Sometimes things click better when you get out of the arena and have a purpose for what you are doing. Or, you could even set something up in the arena. Take opening a gate, for example. Lots of great work in there to school your horse in a “useful” way versus just doing something for the sake of doing it. Walk up to the gate; halt. Take a couple steps forward or sideways or back to get yourself in a good position. Maintain halt while you lean over to unlock gate. Hold top of gate; take a step back and/or sideways . . . and another step and another step until the gate is open. Hold gate and maybe do a TOF or side pass to position yourself to the opening. Go through opening.
I find more purpose-driven riding helps me if I’m stuck with something.
Also, though, training isn’t always pretty. I don’t mean to be overly forceful or abusive, but sometimes you have to turn up the volume to have the message be heard. Offer the lightest cue you can offer. If the horse doesn’t respond, make it louder until he does respond. Release immediately and just let it soak. Try again with the lightest cue and proceed according to the response you get. It is like training them to go off the leg. See how little you can do, but if they don’t go forward, prepare to back up your request with more. So you’ve hit a road block. You need to stand firm and show the horse the way through to the other side. Release is the reward - do it often and with good timing so that your horse understands when he gets the right answer.
Might be worth mentally reviewing the steps you take and seeing if you can break them down even further. Perhaps there’s some disconnect there where you think your horse is getting it because they are taking a couple steps back, but they really aren’t actually understanding your set of aids.
I will say that I did notice in backing that my pony preferred one bit over the other. In going forward I didn’t notice too much because we were at a stage of going on a loose rein so contact wasn’t the goal. But in backing, she clearly liked the loose ring bits versus the D-ring or eggbuts - she was much quieter in the mouth and softer through the body.[/QUOTE]
We do have trails but I have only been out on them once with her. The weather, and then hunting season, and now the weather have made trail riding not an option right now.
I have worked a gate with her once, only problem is she’s tall and I’m short so I had a hard time reaching the chain. :lol: The BO is a western rider and practices trail obstacles sometimes, I’ll have to set up a rope gate and see how she does.
I’m enjoying all the different view points on this issue, and like I said I will discuss this with my trainer as soon as I can schedule a lesson with her.
[QUOTE=Crash Helmet;8990404]
Is second level test one “much, much later in training?”
Agree with Scribbler. In our program, the rein back begins to be installed before the horse is ever ridden. But how much it is used in the early days is determined by the individual horse.[/QUOTE]
Considering that the many riders never make it to Second Level, I would say “Yes”!.. We do teach it in the ground, and hopefully we use a one word verbal command, “Back” simultaneously.
When we transfer it to U/S work, we use that same one word command. If we get one step, we halt praise, and move on asking for it again at a different time, a different place. Some horses learn it very easily when hacking out 
when they are in a spot in which they can’t go forward, they understand back. :lol: It is wise as a rule to teach it patiently to avoid a future of rushing.
There is a big difference between backing and rein back.
The training scale is there for a reason. Rein back is not taught first as it can lead to evasions. There is nothing scarier than a horse that has backing as an evasion. If you pull on the reins they go faster. If you kick they go faster. They keep going until they hit something or fall over something.
You want your halt established first so as they don’t back asking for a square round halt. Only horse riders can understand why a halt is both square and round.
Teach flying changes before counter canter is established and you will find it difficult to teach counter canter.
Teach piaffe before the horse is properly forward and you will get into piaffe…but you might not be able to get out of it.
Backing a horse is also the same as asking a dog to lie down. It is a movement where the animal needs a lot of trust in you.
[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8990900]
There is a big difference between backing and rein back.
The training scale is there for a reason. Rein back is not taught first as it can lead to evasions. There is nothing scarier than a horse that has backing as an evasion. If you pull on the reins they go faster. If you kick they go faster. They keep going until they hit something or fall over something.
You want your halt established first so as they don’t back asking for a square round halt. Only horse riders can understand why a halt is both square and round.
Teach flying changes before counter canter is established and you will find it difficult to teach counter canter.
Teach piaffe before the horse is properly forward and you will get into piaffe…but you might not be able to get out of it.
Backing a horse is also the same as asking a dog to lie down. It is a movement where the animal needs a lot of trust in you.[/QUOTE]
There is so much to disagree with here…where to start.
A rein-back is part of basic horse control. There is no reason NOT to introduce it if the horse is willing.
Drum the counter-canter and you will have trouble introducing the flying change.
Schooling the piaffe is used as a gymnastic to help a horse engage the haunches.
Bottom line…the “training scale” treats horse training in a very mechanistic way…and horses are not machines. They have not read “the book.”
A rider needs to develop “equestrian tact” and learn how much to ask, how intensely to ask…and more importantly, when to reward and back off.
Horse training is not black and white…it is not either/or. It IS shades of grey…which places responsibility on the rider to know how to ask, when to ask, and when to reward.
I said rein back not backing up. There is a difference.
I said more difficult not impossible. You are looking in black and white not grey.
It is lovely if you can teach a proper rein back from the beginning. Some horses have no problem with it, others it’s a grudging step at a time, and must be handled patiently.
[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8991222]
I said rein back not backing up. There is a difference.
…[/QUOTE]
Then please clarify what you mean is “the difference.”
I was replying to the OP’s question with my definition of the reinback and/or backing up which in my book is according to what is written in the Dressage Rulebook:
DR106 The Rein Back
Rein back is a rearward diagonal movement with a two-beat rhythm but without a moment of suspension. Each diagonal pair of legs is raised and returned to the ground alternatively, with the forelegs aligned on the same track as the hindlegs. A four-beat rein back that is not clearly two-beat and diagonal, if done without resistance, could also be scored marginal or better.
During the entire exercise, the horse should remain “on the bit”, maintaining its desire to move forward.
Anticipation or precipitation of the movement, resistance to or evasion of the contact, deviation of the hindquarters from the straight line, spreading or inactive hind legs and dragging forefeet are serious faults.
The steps are counted as each foreleg moves back. After completing the required number of steps backward, the horse should show a square halt or move forward in the required gait immediately. In tests where a rein back of one horse’s length is required, it should be executed with three or four steps.
Reinback series (Schaukel) is a combination of two rein backs with walk steps in between. It should be executed with fluent transitions and the required number of steps.
Stitch in Time, my recommendation with a young horse would be to anticipate where the reins back will fall apart, and be sure to walk out before that happens. If she falls apart predictably at two steps, ask for one at a time and then walk out until one step is perfect. Then ask for two. As she is young, you don’t need to worry about the “3-5” required steps, but you do need to make sure she doesn’t anticipate or become nervous about the movement. Take your time with this, because fixing it later can be more difficult.
My favorite exercise for the rein back is to do a couple steps of turn on the forehand from each leg first and then smoothly move into 1-2 steps back, walking immediately forward. The TOF helps activate each hind leg in turn and make the horse straight between the aids.
My first horse was not a.dressage horse, but he was unwilling to back up. I could get one or two steps most days, but it was grudging and then he would simply refuse to back another step. I fixed it in less than two weeks.
At the end of each ride I halted and asked for the steps back. As soon as he took the second step back I jumped off. No pause for praise, patting, square legs, or anything - just dropped the reins, kicked my feet free and swung off in one motion. The praise and pats came when I hit the ground. On the third or fourth day he gave me three steps back. Then a day or two later four. Then five.
Around day ten I asked him to back up three steps late in the ride and immediately dropped the rein and sent him forward again with praise after the third step. I also did the backing up right before dismounting that day.
Backing up became a non issue very quickly.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8990518]
For example, starting at A, leg yield a few steps at an angle to the opposite corner (you don’t have to do the whole arena…just a few steps).
Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield toward the opposite corner
Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield to E/B (e.g., a full pass)
Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield towards P/V (e.g…, rearward)
Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield towards F/K
Finally, starting at X, ask for movement rearwards straight towards A…and you have your rein-back.
You, as rider/teacher, are just progressively teaching the horse to be comfortable with shifts in balance…forward/sideways/backwards.[/QUOTE]
LOVE this!!
My mare gets “stuck” if she tries to sit more than she has the strength to do, where she doesn’t want to go forward and starts to go backward. For a while it was dangerously back - flying backward where she could easily fall if there were a slight trip. Obviously, we encouraged forward and would turn out of the backward to get her to stop safely then ask for forward, sometimes with pony club kicks to get results.
From this, she learned not to back up. Rather than turn it into something stressful, we left it alone for a while. We worked on it from the ground, where she knows to move backward if the handler asks her to off their body position (I used to do showmanship in 4H and breed shows, you can’t make me NOT teach a horse to move off my body!), and started adding in rein aids. We haven’t worked on backing in the arena again, but we go on frequent trail rides and she simply gets backing to open and close gates. I asked her to back a couple steps in the arena the other day and she happily and easily did it. By framing it in a way which made sense for her, asking her to do it in an arena where she had previously been kicked forward when she would try to back helped her understand the specific aid for backward so it was no stress.
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