When do you/should you train the rein back?

[Stitch_In_Time]

At what point in a horses training do you teach the rein back?

My mare is 4yo, she w/t/c and does basic lateral work, but she is having a hard time with the concept of rein back under saddle (she backs fine in hand). I’m trying to decide if I should tackle this problem now or wait until she is a little further along in her training.

My last horse was green when I got her, but she was broke western so she came with reverse already installed. :yes:

I’ll be asking my trainer this question also, but with the holidays our schedules have not lined up for a lesson recently.

[SuzieQNutter]

In elementary.

Do your horse should be walking, trotting and cantering 10m circles. Doing lateral work of shoulder-in, half pass and levere and starting to collect.

[Eclectic_Horseman]

The dressage tests don’t ask for it until much, much later in training. As a practical matter, I think that it is important from the beginning. You never know (particularly if you hack out) when you may find yourself in a tight spot and need to back out of it.

If your mare already knows how to back on the ground then it is easy to teach her to back when mounted if you have a helper on the ground. Just get your helper to back her from the ground, while you give the mounted aids for her to back. Voice aids and rewards make the learning go even more quickly.

Good luck!

[JackSprats_Mom]

Depends 100% on the horse, mine liked to back as an evasion so I didn’t teach her it until 2nd level

[pluvinel]

You said your mare does “lateral work”…so I assume the horse knows haunches-in and haunches-out.

The preparation for teaching the rein-back is to do:
Haunches-in 3 strides
Haunches-out 3 strides
Ask for rein-back (1-3 strides depending on horse) then walk-on.
If the horse pulls, go forward and start again.

For a horse that backs up as an evasion, then put them to work in rein-back. Do serpentines, circles, figure-8’s…all while backing up…periodically ask the horse to walk-on. It is a great exercise to engage the loins…but it is work and pretty soon the horse will figure out that walking forward is easier than walking backwards.

Actually, rein-back up a hill is strengthening exercise and preparation for piaffe as the horse has to pick up it hind feet to go up the hill.

[DressurLeben]

You can buy Karl Mikolka’s article on the reinback from his website. I bought it and it’s 7 pages of insight and wisdom.

[Scribbler]

The answers here raise the question of, do you wait to teach a move until you are at the level it is being tested, or do you teach a move much earlier, perhaps at the slower gait? Do you “teach to the test,” that is assume that the move “belongs” in the the “training scale” at the point it appears in the test? Or do you teach the move much earlier?

I would expect the rein back to be taught very early, as it is something we expect on all basically broke horses, even if they don’t do much more than w/t/c. It seems like it would be hard to get through a ride without it. Of course, if the horse is exhibiting bad behavior that might be made worse by a lot of concentration on rein back right at that point, you would be wise to postpone it. If a horse was doing anything that felt like a potential rear, popping up in front at all, I’d definitely not want to be playing with reinback!

If the horse is having trouble making the connection between reinback in hand and in the saddle, have you tried having a helper on the ground to bridge the transition? Or putting “back” on voice cue until she makes the transition? The aids in the saddle are so different from the aids on the ground, it might not translate at all for her.

Basic lateral work at the walk is another move that IME is usefully started at a very basic level, rather than waiting until shoulder-in trot is needed for a test, and then trying to train that straight off, as I see folks do.

[Foxtail]

There’s a difference here between backing up and doing a rein back. I’d expect a horse to be able to just back up pretty early on. It’s a necessary tool to have in an “oh shit” moment. It gets refined into a proper rein back later, as the horse gets stronger. The aids are basically the same, it’s the posture of the horse that differs.

[Crash_Helmet]

[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;8989903]
The dressage tests don’t ask for it until much, much later in training. [/QUOTE]
Is second level test one “much, much later in training?”

Agree with Scribbler. In our program, the rein back begins to be installed before the horse is ever ridden. But how much it is used in the early days is determined by the individual horse.

[CFFarm]

As soon as the horse is doing in hand and work on the longe. Teach him to back with a point of the figure to his chest and have an assistant give the same cue while you cue from the saddle. If working alone don’t be afraid to use your voice. You can drop it later. He will soon connect the dots.

Just don’t forget the rein back is basically a forward movement with the energy “caught” and redirected.

[Stitch_In_Time]

[QUOTE=Scribbler;8990394]
The answers here raise the question of, do you wait to teach a move until you are at the level it is being tested, or do you teach a move much earlier, perhaps at the slower gait? Do you “teach to the test,” that is assume that the move “belongs” in the the “training scale” at the point it appears in the test? Or do you teach the move much earlier?

I would expect the rein back to be taught very early, as it is something we expect on all basically broke horses, even if they don’t do much more than w/t/c. It seems like it would be hard to get through a ride without it. Of course, if the horse is exhibiting bad behavior that might be made worse by a lot of concentration on rein back right at that point, you would be wise to postpone it. If a horse was doing anything that felt like a potential rear, popping up in front at all, I’d definitely not want to be playing with reinback!

If the horse is having trouble making the connection between reinback in hand and in the saddle, have you tried having a helper on the ground to bridge the transition? Or putting “back” on voice cue until she makes the transition? The aids in the saddle are so different from the aids on the ground, it might not translate at all for her.

Basic lateral work at the walk is another move that IME is usefully started at a very basic level, rather than waiting until shoulder-in trot is needed for a test, and then trying to train that straight off, as I see folks do.[/QUOTE]

This is how I feel about it, all reasonably broke horses should be able to back up under saddle (maybe I shouldn’t be calling it rein back yet?). Thankfully she doesn’t misbehave under saddle so I’m not concerned about causing a problem by teaching her to back up. I can sometimes get a step or two from her, but then she shuts down. I think she is just not understanding what I want because she is generally a very willing horse.

I have read about using a helper on the ground to translate the cue for the horse, unfortunately there’s usually no one around when I ride (maybe I can recruit someone this weekend). I do use a voice command on the ground but I think I will have to spend some more time in hand and get her backing up with the voice command alone, right now I need to poke her in the chest too.

[pluvinel]

The answers here raise the question of, do you wait to teach a move until you are at the level it is being tested, or do you teach a move much earlier, perhaps at the slower gait? Do you “teach to the test,” that is assume that the move “belongs” in the the “training scale” at the point it appears in the test? Or do you teach the move much earlier?

This whole “training scale” “wait til you are at the level it is being tested” is unfortunate.

I go back to what I said upthread…the horse has not read the latest USDF guidance, or any dressage test…so any reference to the training scale, etc is irrelevant.

The trainer needs to ride the horse that is in front of him/her that day. If the horse has been very obedient and is balanced and responsive to the rider, there is no reason that a rider could not ask for a rein-back (or a rearward shift in balance) as early as the first few rides under saddle.

Stop, go, turn, and rein-back are the basics of a barely broke horse that has acquired the rudiments of steering and control. The order these things are taught is irrelevant so long as the process enables the horse to learn without undue stress.

[pluvinel]

I can sometimes get a step or two from her, but then she shuts down. I think she is just not understanding what I want because she is generally a very willing horse.

Well…there is your answer. You are getting the answer to your request. Your conclusion that the horse is confused is probably right.

Do you praise and reward when you get the few steps? Or do you ask for more?

If you praise the one or two steps and make it very clear that is that you wanted, pretty soon the horse will understand and offer more.

[Stitch_In_Time]

[QUOTE=pluvinel;8990459]
Well…there is your answer. You are getting the answer to your request. Your conclusion that the horse is confused is probably right.

Do you praise and reward when you get the few steps? Or do you ask for more?

If you praise the one or two steps and make it very clear that is that you wanted, pretty soon the horse will understand and offer more.[/QUOTE]

I praise and reward the few steps (or even a shift in her weight). But that is where we are stuck, one or two steps is all she will give me before she either shuts down, or moves forward without being asked.

IME once you have those one or two steps the rest of the training goes pretty quickly. Next session you ask for three steps then reward etc. For some reason this horse is having a difficult time with this concept and can’t move past the one or two steps. I think a ground person will help her, I just have to recruit someone to help me.

[My_Two_Cents]

Does the horse have any health issues that might cause pain when trying to back with a saddle on?

We had a horse years ago that got West Nile real bad (vaccine was unavailable at that time). Came very close to losing him. After he had it he couldn’t back up. He tried really hard but just couldn’t make it happen. Not saying your horse has had West Nile, but could it be something physical?

[pluvinel]

For some reason this horse is having a difficult time with this concept and can’t move past the one or two steps.

Ok, since you’re working alone, then think of the rider’s job is as a teacher…and sometimes a teacher has to try different ways to “say” something before a student can understand a new concept.

Think back to when you were in school…let’s say physics class…and the teacher introduced something new. Starting with confusion, at some point the light turned on and the student understood. You don’t start physics reading the last chapter in the textbook…but go thru a progression where topics build up on past materials.

So, how does this apply to the horse?

A rein-back is a shift in balance…to the rear. So instead of asking for the “the last chapter”…eg., the rein-back…then start by just asking for a simple shift in balance sideways…which the teacher can slowly build up into the eventual “last chapter”…eg., the rein-back.

Since you say that the horse knows lateral work, then ask for a shift to the side…eg…a side pass at a slight angle…the progressively increase the angle till you’re eventually in a rein-back.

For example, starting at A, leg yield a few steps at an angle to the opposite corner (you don’t have to do the whole arena…just a few steps).

Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield toward the opposite corner

Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield to E/B (e.g., a full pass)

Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield towards P/V (e.g…, rearward)

Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield towards F/K

Finally, starting at X, ask for movement rearwards straight towards A…and you have your rein-back.

You, as rider/teacher, are just progressively teaching the horse to be comfortable with shifts in balance…forward/sideways/backwards.

[Stitch_In_Time]

[QUOTE=My Two Cents;8990512]
Does the horse have any health issues that might cause pain when trying to back with a saddle on?

We had a horse years ago that got West Nile real bad (vaccine was unavailable at that time). Came very close to losing him. After he had it he couldn’t back up. He tried really hard but just couldn’t make it happen. Not saying your horse has had West Nile, but could it be something physical?[/QUOTE]

She backs in hand both with and without a saddle easily, and she doesn’t have any other issues under saddle outside of being green as grass. :lol: I don’t think this is a pain issue, but definitely if it continues, or if my trainer can’t fix the issue I will have the vet check her out.

[QUOTE=pluvinel;8990518]Ok…then the rider’s job is as a teacher…and sometimes a teacher has to try different ways to “say” something before a student can understand a new concept.

Think back to when you were in school…let’s say physics class…and the teacher introduced something new. Starting with confusion, at some point the light turned on and the student understood. You don’t start physics reading the last chapter in the textbook…but go thru a progression where topics build up on past materials.

So, how does this apply to the horse?

A rein-back is a shift in balance…to the rear. So instead of asking for the “the last chapter”…eg., the rein-back…then start by just asking for a simple shift in balance sideways…which the teacher can slowly build up into the eventual “last chapter”…eg., the rein-back.

Since you say that the horse knows lateral work, then ask for a shift to the side…eg…a side pass at a slight angle…the progressively increase the angle till you’re eventually in a rein-back.

For example, starting at A, leg yield a few steps at an angle to the opposite corner (you don’t have to do the whole arena…just a few steps).

Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield toward the opposite corner

Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield to E/B (e.g., a full pass)

Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield towards P/V (e.g…, rearward)

Then make it more steep…eg., starting at X, leg yield towards F/K

Finally, starting at X, ask for movement towards A.

You, as rider/teacher are just teaching the horse to be comfortable with shifts in balance…forward/sideways/backwards.[/QUOTE]

This is helpful, I was needing a different way to explain it to her since she is just not understanding right now.

I haven’t really worked on this issue much, I check in with it every couple weeks but I haven’t fully addressed it since I can tell she is confused (and I was lacking a different way to explain it).

[kcmel]

My horse has an inclination to step back at the halt, so we don’t work on it when we dressage school. We fox hunt, so he has to know how to do it there (to get out of the way of staff).

[Mondo]

Kcmel brings up a great point. You don’t want to school the rb until the halt is well established. Otherwise you can create a habit of stepping back in the halt (because the horse begins to anticipate a rb). The only other caveat I would add, is that you should NEVER, EVER use the rb as a punishment - which is what I see western riders do FREQUENTLY. I’ve seen a western trainer back a horse up all the way around the ring. What does that teach the horse except that you are cruel and quick to anger? SMH

[Eclectic_Horseman]

@Crash Helmet;8990404

Is second level test one “much, much later in training?”

For an ordinary 4 year old with an amateur rider? Yes.