When horse lifts head, do you lift hands or keep hands low?

[LilyandBaron]

I’ve heard both from trainers I respect - horse hollows out or lifts head to avoid contact, and some trainers say to lift hands to maintain the contact, keeping the line from elbow to the bit. But then I’ve had trainers say to not lift the hands. No one I respect has me “pull” the head down. The lower hands are just maintained where I want the horse to be, like a side rein would, and I add leg, maybe a haunches in, vibrate the reins, and horse does come back down.

Honestly, both methods seem to work to restablish the contact. So I kind of play with it with different horses and just praise them when they push into the bit correctly again and lift their back. Just curious as to what COTH thoughts/experiences are with both/either approach - good, bad, indifferent?

[ArabDiva]

I think both approaches probably work for different horses in different situations.

Typically I try to keep my hands steady and let the horse find me. I have had better results with this approach with both of my horses, in most moods and situations.

Adult ammy, #notatrainer…

[Foxtail]

I lift my hands, usually with my palms facing up, sometimes spread farther apart than normal and/or vibrating the reins slightly if the horse is really resisting. Think about from the standpoint of operant conditioning. If you did something that would pull the horse’s head down (from his perspective) you’d be punishing the behavior that you want. So instead by lifting the hands you are making the undesired behavior uncomfortable. Then when you get the desired behavior you can release without confusing the horse.

[outerbanks77]

I usually lift the hands as necessary to maintain contact, so that the horse isn’t escaping contact by coming up. If the contact is maintained, but it’s more of a loss of flexion or softness of the jaw, I’ll maintain the outside rein and bring the inside rein up.

Lowering the hands puts the bit pressure against the bars instead of the lips. Maintaining the contact against the corners of the mouth instead of the bars is more inviting to the horse, which I think results in them being more receptive to coming round and receiving elastic contact.

[kande04]

I taught my horse how I wanted him to react to the cues from the ground, and then practiced under saddle until he understood. I started with “action-reaction” the way Philippe Karl teaches it, but decided the really high, wide hands were too much for my horse so don’t lift my hands that much, but just widen them and hold until he pushes forward and out.

If he hollows and giraffes, I flex him laterally with wide hands until he comes back down and out.

[LookmaNohands]

You first have to ask yourself what and why your horse is trying to escape. Usually they are uncomfortable. It can be anything from saddle fit being a problem to tightness in the poll, discomfort in the mouth or a rider’s rough hands.

I would first rule out discomfort and never assume that that is not a problem, then I like Phillippe Karl’s method.

I would also take the bit out, ride in a hackamore for a bit and see if I have the same problem there. Sometimes a different bit is in order.

[CFFarm]

A high headed horse is inverted and tense. To me it’s all about relaxation and trust in the hand.

I keep my hands in the normal “working area” box but keep the contact and set parameters. As soon as there is any effort by the horse to lower his head or relax I reward by a hint of release. the more relaxation, the more release. With a really inverted horse I’ll start with a running martingale so he sets his own parameters.

When riders raise their hands they tend to lean back a bit in the saddle which only makes the horse more tense and want to drop the back and raise the head more.

[merrygoround]

Usually I find that riding the horse forward , and using arena exercises will solve the problem without much fuss. Trying to force or lock the head down usually is counterproductive.

[LilyandBaron]

I’ve ridden quite a few horses, and not all go high-headed (lol - that would mean it’s all me!), just heard the two different approaches from clinicians recently, so made me curious.

I personally agree that it’s situation dependent - all tools in the toolkit and can figure out which works best. And even with the same horse, it may differ day-to-day/moment-to-moment. I find when they are spooky and high-headed, I lift my hands to remind them I’m there, and when they are maybe just inconsistent, keeping hands “in the box” and using forward aids or lateral (haunches out) to help them find the contact works better.

I do not think pulling is EVER the right answer, but a following hand up or a steady hand and pushing them forward to show them where you want them to be - both can work. I will say, I had a clinic a few years ago with a very lauded BNT. My TB had just started back to focused dressage work after being leased to h/j kids, so she was not happy about any contact and was definitely hollow and fussy. The trainer had reviews on COTH threads that were fawning over her, so I was excited to ride in the clinic. But then I actually got her on video screeching “PULL HARDER!” Uh, no.

[sortofbyx]

I have always been taught to keep your hands low, use more leg to push the horse into the bridle, and give a light release when the horse comes down into the hand. I’ve learned to add voltes with my horse who tends to invert, as it changes both his mental and physical path and can give me a chance to coerce him down where he should be.

[Pocket_Pony]

I lift my hands to keep in line with the head. I don’t pull. I keep contact on the outside rein and lift to get flexion on the inside rein. Granted, I have worked on these rein aids on the ground with my horses, so they know what they mean.

I have worked with some trainers who say to keep the hands low. In my own riding at home and experimenting, I’ve tried both. For me, the lifting of the hands (and no, I don’t lean back) is something my horses respond to better.

But basically, I am always riding the horse - I am not a rigid machine who sets my body in a certain position and expects the horse to conform to it. I’m responding to what my horse is doing and I’m asking him or her to respond to what I’m doing. It is like a dance - or at least that’s what I’m going for!

[Pipkin]

[QUOTE=LookmaNohands;8918370]
You first have to ask yourself what and why your horse is trying to escape. Usually they are uncomfortable. It can be anything from saddle fit being a problem to tightness in the poll, discomfort in the mouth or a rider’s rough hands.

I would first rule out discomfort and never assume that that is not a problem, then I like Phillippe Karl’s method.

I would also take the bit out, ride in a hackamore for a bit and see if I have the same problem there. Sometimes a different bit is in order.[/QUOTE]

Hackamores are quite harsh so I would use with caution!

I agree that you need to find the cause, but often it is something as simple as losing balance, being distracted or just getting fatigued. My ottb went like a giraffe for the first few months, and I have to say he won’t even dream of that now unless something really scares him or I make a mistake. The key was being able to sense tension in his back and avert it before it reached his neck! If you can isolate what happens just before the head goes up, you have more chance of catching it early.

As for hands, I don’t think it really matters where they are as long as the pressure is appropriate, I think the important thing in this scenario is your legs - if head shoots up legs should go straight on, whether simply to rebalance or as a strict ‘forward!!’ aid is dependent on the situation.

[netg]

[QUOTE=outerbanks77;8918222]

Lowering the hands puts the bit pressure against the bars instead of the lips. Maintaining the contact against the corners of the mouth instead of the bars is more inviting to the horse, which I think results in them being more receptive to coming round and receiving elastic contact.[/QUOTE]

This.

Several other folks have said the same thing I do about riding the horse forward into the energy. PP gave a good explanation about mobilizing the jaw with inside flexion as needed. I don’t vibrate the head down, I ride the hind end under. Ultimately, I don’t care the height of the head, I care what the body is doing - and so the comments about how to ride the body are what get the head where it needs to be. The jaw is part of the body and needs to stay mobilized (someone mentioned locked in the poll - also an issue to fix if it’s the case), and you need to avoid pulling against the bars of the mouth. (Note: Easier said than done. This has been a recent focus in my lessons.)

[sunhawk]

I evented on a little morgan/appy cross, who could jump the moon, but dressage was a constant struggle as he was extremely busy-brain and saw no sense in the sandbox where there were no jumps. The best help I recieved was to hold him in counter-bend till he softened to the outside rein, then softly ofter the hand forward and allow him to take the rein down into stretch. Yes, he was tense and high-headed, and quick, and way too athletic, it was always tricky to try and keep him forward into the hand. I did manage to achieve it schooling, but never in a dressage test at an event.

[Kerrysmom818]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8918591]
I lift my hands to keep in line with the head. I don’t pull. I keep contact on the outside rein and lift to get flexion on the inside rein. Granted, I have worked on these rein aids on the ground with my horses, so they know what they mean.

I have worked with some trainers who say to keep the hands low. In my own riding at home and experimenting, I’ve tried both. For me, the lifting of the hands (and no, I don’t lean back) is something my horses respond to better.

But basically, I am always riding the horse - I am not a rigid machine who sets my body in a certain position and expects the horse to conform to it. I’m responding to what my horse is doing and I’m asking him or her to respond to what I’m doing. It is like a dance - or at least that’s what I’m going for![/QUOTE]

I am working with a new trainer who stresses riding this way. Seemed very awkward at first (higher hands) but, my gelding is finally learning to relax into my hand - what relief for both of us!

Position is much the same way - and her ideas on how to use leg aids. It is so refreshing and my guy is thriving in this new program.

[Velvet]

Depends if you’re training or retraining, and the horse’s history. Are they more comfortable on the lunge with side reins and stable contact? I might stay low when riding them into and elastic contact and slowly make adjustments to make sure they are happy. If it is a horse that is just messing around, I’ll raise my contact and ride them into it

[Dressagelvr]

Hands are rarely the answer. Why is the horse resisting?

[LilyandBaron]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8919299]
Hands are rarely the answer. Why is the horse resisting?[/QUOTE]

I think it is very true too many people are too focused on hands/head set, but I also think people can ignore how much bad hands can screw things up. And bad hands aren’t just “rollkur” stuff - bad hands can be too loose, as well.

Hands alone, or really any aid(s) alone, are rarely the answer, it is still important to consider hands if you want a connection/contact. If a horse is resisting (and way too many variables to address - wasn’t being specific in my post to any one situation - had just seen two different trainers advise the two approaches noted) do you follow with hands, keep the hands steady and push the horse to find them, and there are other options - wider, lower, whatever? Neither trainer I saw advocated pulling or forcing a headset, but in connecting the energy from behind and getting the horse to lift their back, it was interesting to see both following the head up, so the horse can’t evade, which led to horses then lowering their heads; as well as keeping the hands lower (not lowering them more and pulling down), and pushing the horse to find that contact - both work. Does one method work better with certain resistances, or do both work as long as the rider is clear in rewarding the right answer?

I think we obsess a bit about the exact right approach, but when I think about sidesaddle, or para-athletes - I imagine those riders are not always biometrically perfect and balanced, and yet, achieve amazing results. I think if the approach is kind, and always forward-thinking (back to front), the bigger thing is consistency in telling the horse when they are trying to give the right answer.

[Dressagelvr]

You are right. Bad hands can be very hard on a horse. Usually riders with bad hands are compensating for weakness elsewhere in their position. Or they are fearful or just plain rough riders.

To answer your question, I think it depends upon both the horse, and the moment. It is important to be comfortable with a good number of methods in order to use the right one in the right moment.

Vague enough? LOL.

[Kerrysmom818]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;8920079]
You are right. Bad hands can be very hard on a horse. Usually riders with bad hands are compensating for weakness elsewhere in their position. Or they are fearful or just plain rough riders.

To answer your question, I think it depends upon both the horse, and the moment. It is important to be comfortable with a good number of methods in order to use the right one in the right moment.

Vague enough? LOL.[/QUOTE]

It’s actually the perfect answer - which is why dressage is so HARD!!