When is a good time to “move on” from the hunters, and where to move on to?

[Midge]

@danhelm441

think what really brought me down was watching a video of our most recent flat class. He looked fantastic, cruising around on the bit with this big extended trot. His transitions were balanced and crisp. To me, we looked perfect But we didn’t even place.

Except this is not what wins the under saddle class. Long low movement across the ground with light contact wins the under saddle.

[outside_leg]

@danhelm441

When I ask for a canter, there are many different types of canter I may get, and it can take several laps around the warm up ring to get the canter I’m looking for. An opening circle ends too soon. I need a big, big circle and preferably 3 of them

I hate to whine about the hunters, but I feel like it can be very “your horse gets it or he doesn’t.”

I don’t think the question is whether your horse gets it. The challenge you seem to be having is developing feel. That’s part of the learning process, and we all go through it. Eventually it won’t take you three big circles to learn whether you have the correct rhythm and pace. But that comes in time.

Like others, I think you’re where you need to be. No matter what ring you’re in (hunters, jumpers, eq), you need to develop a feel for rhythm and pace. The most forgiving place to learn that is the hunter ring.

I also think that as you develop a feel and consistency and start nailing the strides in your long stirrup courses, you’ll place. It’s not that your horse “doesn’t get it,” it’s that it takes practice to do these things well. The questions will only get tougher as you move up the levels, so it’s best to master the fundamentals now so you can safely and confidently progress.

[Midge]

@danhelm441

@atl_hunter

Here’s the reality - at the level in which you are competing, the jumping classes in your division will not be won by the fancy hunter - they will be won by whomever is accurate and precise. My wonky moving horse who couldn’t place in a flat won many tricolor by being accurate.

Yes, I can see that. I think we’ve struck out at our most recent shows with the course designs. Because it’s the beginning of the season, I think the 18” classes have been set very simply (so in other words, two lines of jumps that you lap through twice—no lead changes, no diagonal lines). It just doesn’t play to our strengths. We don’t get enough pace to start with, add a stride in the first line, and that’s enough to put you out of the ribbons, with no tight turns or lead changes to redeem those little screw ups. Rollbacks and lead changes are what we do have down… opening circles and getting a good canter right from the start are not.

But roll backs are also not a function of hunters. Lead changes are needed if your horse does not land on the correct lead, so it is good that you have those. But nothing ‘redeems’ mistakes. I would be surprised at the 18" level that striding weighs on the judging that much. Consistency is what wins. So if you are doing twice around the outside and do a line in eight strides one time and five the next, that is not consistent.

[Midge]

@danhelm441

I hate to whine about the hunters, but I feel like it can be very “your horse gets it or he doesn’t.” I get that it’s supposed to showcase a natural, relaxed horse, but maybe in that respect, it depends too much on a horse’s natural way of going with minimal rider interference. So as a rider, when you need to troubleshoot something, it just feels like there are no tools in the toolbox to do that.

When you’re competing against horses with a metronome canter that doesn’t change once on a whole course, it’s easy to look at that and think, “That’s just how that horse goes. That horse was born cantering like that.” And it kind of feels like that’s what you’re supposed to think, because so much of hunter training—for amateurs and kids, at least—emphasizes steering out of the corners and then leaving the horse alone. My horse might have a metronome canter somewhere deep inside, but I feel like I need more tools than “add leg” and “add hand” to get there.

Horses are trained to go that way. Some do it more naturally than others, but if both of you are learning how to do it, it can be tricky because you don’t know it well enough to teach him how to do it. It sounds a bit like your expectations are higher than your skill level. Regulating pace is going to be a requirement no matter what discipline you choose.

[S1969]

@AmmyHunter

If you think tight turns or lead changes will redeem other mistakes, then in all honesty (and I don’t mean this to be snarky) I don’t think you yet understand the hunter judging.

This is a really important factor to understand in many sports, but most especially those that are subjectively judged. I know someone who is a body builder and she entered competitions before she understood the judging or even the difference in divisions (not surprisingly she did not place in her first few competitions). It’s impossible to work on skills and aspects that you need to improve, if you don’t understand the judging. What you think is good or much improved might not make any difference in the actual judging. (Bodybuilder friend is now a pro, but in a different division than she started.)

OP - do you have a trainer? Are they helping you with this?

[ExpialidociousOTTB]

I think you should move on if you aren’t having fun, it makes absolutely no sense to pay a bunch of money for a hobby, if you aren’t enjoying it. The hunters is a very trainer-dependent sport, and it’s not for everyone.

There are plenty of jumper shows offered near me that score the low heights on optimum time, not just raw speed. I think saying riders need to be jumping 3’ before being able to show is very exclusionist. I’ll probably never jump a single 3’ fence, much less a course - I have a lovely TB, with that fantastic metronome canter - he has a severe case of kissing spines and might never be rideable again. I’m working with a very tiny horse budget now that my TB is a pasture ornament, and thought my time in horse sports might be over - but I feel incredibly fortunate to have someone allow me to care lease their jumper pony, and she is limited to fences smaller than 2’6” due to arthritis. She’s not a hunter and I do not wish to do the hunters with her - she is a drafty pony with a lateral canter - but she’s fun, super smart, and jumps great - and I could not be more grateful for her. I’m hopeful I might be able to do some baby jumper shows and tadpole events with her soon. I have no desire to ride at the 3’ and will happily plod around the tadpole/2’ for ages, maybe the rest of my life.

Reading some of these replies, I also feel grateful for all the people that are inclusive of people and horses on different journeys - I have been lucky to attend multiple clinics at the tadpole level, and have upper level riders/trainers happy for me to be there. I have never been made to feel unworthy at any of these events.

Move on if you aren’t enjoying yourself. Eventers really are the nicest, most welcoming horse people, and the sport is extremely fun, even at the lowest levels.

[mvp]

@danhelm441

@atl_hunter

Here’s the reality - at the level in which you are competing, the jumping classes in your division will not be won by the fancy hunter - they will be won by whomever is accurate and precise. My wonky moving horse who couldn’t place in a flat won many tricolor by being accurate.

Yes, I can see that. I think we’ve struck out at our most recent shows with the course designs. Because it’s the beginning of the season, I think the 18” classes have been set very simply (so in other words, two lines of jumps that you lap through twice—no lead changes, no diagonal lines). It just doesn’t play to our strengths. We don’t get enough pace to start with, add a stride in the first line, and that’s enough to put you out of the ribbons, with no tight turns or lead changes to redeem those little screw ups. Rollbacks and lead changes are what we do have down… opening circles and getting a good canter right from the start are not.

Yes, but if you can’t pick a pace that gets you down the lines** I think the roll backs and lead changes aren’t what you ought to think the judge should be requiring.

That’s because the horse who isn’t ahead of your leg can’t do those more advanced maneuvers well enough so as to not be unduly hard on his body. And the “problem” of jumping is also premised on a horse who is going forward (and is, again, ahead of your leg), not his handiness.

**I’m assuming the lines are set for a modest stride and also that your horse doesn’t have an unusually short stride.

If you think a course designer owes you three opening circles to get enough pace to make the strides down a line of 18" fences and/or you think you have figured out what the hunter divisions is all about after not winning at 2’, and feel it has nothing of value to offer you I respectfully submit that you are setting yourself up for a world of hurt. That could come sooner, that could come later. But the hunter divisions build good, accurate, tactful riding and a well-broke, safe jumping horse. In short, it’s a fantastic place to learn about and build the fundamentals that you will draw on every day when the jumps and speed and difficulty are all greater.

I love you ambition, but not your hubris. I don’t care if you think the hunters are just a spending contest or a beauty contest. But don’t decide it’s beneath you until you have taken what you need from it.

[mvp]

[quote=“danhelm441, post:20, topic:759211, full:true”]

@AmmyHunter

Proper striding helps you manage the pace, and adding a stride is a major flaw not a minor one in most every classes (crossrails or similar classes may be an exception, but you have to either consistently do the add striding or consistently do the step, you can’t mix and match).
[/quote/]

I feel much more like it’s the pace that manages the striding. And I also don’t mean to downplay it’s significance, I think it just frustrates me because my horse’s pace can be so hard to nail down (I’ve posted about that before). When I ask for a canter, there are many different types of canter I may get, and it can take several laps around the warm up ring to get the canter I’m looking for. An opening circle ends too soon. I need a big, big circle and preferably 3 of them

I hate to whine about the hunters, but I feel like it can be very “your horse gets it or he doesn’t.” I get that it’s supposed to showcase a natural, relaxed horse, but maybe in that respect, it depends too much on a horse’s natural way of going with minimal rider interference. So as a rider, when you need to troubleshoot something, it just feels like there are no tools in the toolbox to do that.

When you’re competing against horses with a metronome canter that doesn’t change once on a whole course, it’s easy to look at that and think, “That’s just how that horse goes. That horse was born cantering like that.” And it kind of feels like that’s what you’re supposed to think, because so much of hunter training—for amateurs and kids, at least—emphasizes steering out of the corners and then leaving the horse alone. My horse might have a metronome canter somewhere deep inside, but I feel like I need more tools than “add leg” and “add hand” to get there.

For whatever kind of jumping you do, I promise you, it will be valuable (and potentially life-saving) to learn the tools of creating a rhythmic canter.

As you said, the striding is taken care of by the pace. So if you can’t learn how to find and keep a consistent, engaged canter, you won’t be able to see a distance very well. If you can’t do that, the only ride you have left is that “kick and pull, making adjustments until I can tell when we’ll leave the ground” ride. That scares horses. They tend to become less and less rideable the more we wrestle with them as they near the fence.

And someday you will be wrong, You will figure out too late that the horse can’t leave the ground where you thought you were going to put him. What’s your plan then? Who is going to have to bail out whom?

So for all those folks riding around on very rhythmic horses, know that the have a basically safer and easier basis for riding courses and know, too, that that skill can be learned by your horse and by you. But first you have to see the value in it.

[ToTheNines]

@danhelm441

I think the 18” classes have been set very simply (so in other words, two lines of jumps that you lap through twice—no lead changes, no diagonal lines). It just doesn’t play to our strengths. We don’t get enough pace to start with, add a stride in the first line, and that’s enough to put you out of the ribbons, with no tight turns or lead changes to redeem those little screw ups.

I have been riding for years and years, and at my age I don’t jump high anymore. Getting the right pace to have a nice first jump and get down the first line is always going to be part of the challenge of a hunter course. Especially when the jumps are small because that makes it harder. I have two suggestions: 1) forget about the flat classes, they are not important, and actually are a beauty contest. 2) give some thought to your course designs. A proper low level course should give you a single first, andshould shorten the lines down from 12’ strides for small jumps. An 18" course with the first jump being an away lines at 12’ – I wouldn’t do that with my own long strided horse! If your course is different from this, part of the problem is on the course designer, and just add up the first line. Or add in all the lines, 18" is really really small to get down the “real” lines. Wait until you are jumping a bit higher. For now, just practice your track and being even.

[mmeqcenter]

@danhelm441

I still have a lot to work on with respect to getting the striding between lines, using corners correctly without losing pace, and staying straight to the jumps.

These are fundamental basics that are required for all disciplines, flat and over fences.

@danhelm441

He looked fantastic, cruising around on the bit with this big extended trot. His transitions were balanced and crisp. To me, we looked perfect. But we didn’t even place

How many hunter classes have you watched? At shows, online, etc.; do some research on what is expected in hunter flat classes, and maybe it will make more sense. I’m sure he’s a gorgeous guy, but if he isn’t what they’re looking for in a hunter under saddle, you won’t pin in a hunter under saddle class.

@danhelm441

Rollbacks and lead changes are what we do have down… opening circles and getting a good canter right from the start are not.

@danhelm441

When I ask for a canter, there are many different types of canter I may get, and it can take several laps around the warm up ring to get the canter I’m looking for. An opening circle ends too soon. I need a big, big circle and preferably 3 of them

As with the first thing I quoted, these are fundamental basics for all disciplines. Getting a quality canter right from the start is essential to jumpers, equitation, hunters, eventing, and dressage. So, until you get these basics down, you’re likely going to struggle being competitive in any discipline. It sounds like you are trying to show in classes above you and your horse’s training level right now.

@Scribbler

If you dislike showing and losing, don’t show until you are doing much better at home. I personally don’t see the point in going out as a rider that’s not prepared.

Completely agree with this. If you’re a more competitive type where losing gets you down, then work on being more prepared before you show again. Or, try to just enjoy shows for what they can be instead of intense competition - great learning experiences, and a chance to have a fun day with barn-mates.

[Renn_aissance]

@danhelm441

I hate to whine about the hunters, but I feel like it can be very “your horse gets it or he doesn’t.” I get that it’s supposed to showcase a natural, relaxed horse, but maybe in that respect, it depends too much on a horse’s natural way of going with minimal rider interference. So as a rider, when you need to troubleshoot something, it just feels like there are no tools in the toolbox to do that.

I think this is a common misconception about the division. A winning ride will look rhythmical and effortless on the horse’s part. It may not be! The rider has to be very skilled to teach a horse how to go that way, and, at higher levels, to manage a horse who might not be very rhythmical in his mind at that moment.

In the American jumping system, the progression often goes hunters (fundamentals: pace, balance, rhythm, impulsion, consistency), through equitation (dynamics of stride, changes of line, demonstration of higher-order flatwork), through jumpers (all of that but with additional speed.) Certainly there are hunter specialists who prefer to excel there, so hunters are not “the thing you do before you’re good enough to move on,” but good riding of a hunter is pretty foundational to the American forward seat system.

Can you learn the qualities that exemplify equitation or jumper riding by focusing on those rings? Sure, but you’re going to be focusing on a lot of the same things.

From what you describe, I think you’re in the frustrating learning stage where you know what you have to work on, but you aren’t quite at a point where you have the tools in your toolbox to fix them. And it sounds like you have some misconceptions about why what you see winning is important to produce. If you have not produced a canter that will let you cruise along from jump to jump on an even and consistent length of stride, sure, rollback turns will camouflage that at this level because you can compress the stride, but that strategy falls apart when the jumps get bigger because the point of creating that rhythmical stride is to have consistent impulsion so that you can meet the jumps on a distance optimized to allow your horse to jump out of stride without unnecessary effort. You’re going to be working on the same thing in the baby jumper ring, for instance (but please don’t go in there to win- the 2’ baby jumpers judged on time are an abhorrence suitable only for fearless children on feral ponies at breakneck speed, it is not actually about good riding.)

Go do the kind of riding that you find fun. Try eventing! Play in the low equitation! Go hilltop if you have a local hunt! All of those sports are going to teach you the same fundamental skills of improving your horse’s way of going. If you’re going to show, I’d encourage you to find a good trainer in whatever discipline you work in, who is familiar with the way these classes are ridden and judged, so that you get good feedback on what you’ll need to work on to be competitive.

[Midge]

@ToTheNines

1. forget about the flat classes, they are not important, and actually are a beauty contest.

But they are not a beauty contest, especially at the OP’s level.

[danhelm441]

@mvp

If you think a course designer owes you three opening circles to get enough pace to make the strides down a line of 18" fences and/or you think you have figured out what the hunter divisions is all about after not winning at 2’, and feel it has nothing of value to offer you I respectfully submit that you are setting yourself up for a world of hurt. That could come sooner, that could come later. But the hunter divisions build good, accurate, tactful riding and a well-broke, safe jumping horse. In short, it’s a fantastic place to learn about and build the fundamentals that you will draw on every day when the jumps and speed and difficulty are all greater.

I love you ambition, but not your hubris. I don’t care if you think the hunters are just a spending contest or a beauty contest. But don’t decide it’s beneath you until you have taken what you need from it.

I don’t think that, though. I thought I would stay in the hunters long term. It’s just that in practice, I have a hard time making a good hunter round happen, or encouraging my horse to move more like a hunter in our flat classes. And in lessons, I don’t really feel like I get the tools to fix that. Maybe it’s the trainer-centered culture of the hunters in the sense that you’d get that by paying for training rides, not by paying for lessons to teach you to do it yourself. But the hunter coaching in general—not just my instructor, but the instructors I’ve watched at shows and at the in-gate—isn’t very analytical. It’s a lot more about what happened or didn’t happen, and less prescriptive with solutions to make it happen differently next time. There is also more emphasis on the rider than the horse, which is probably a function of the level I’m riding at.

I’m sure I’m not doing myself any favors by foregoing training rides. It’s just that I would rather learn how to do it myself, and maybe compete in a discipline where you’re encouraged to do that and the instruction is designed around doing that, even at the lowest level. I know the low-level hunters are supposed to instill really solid basics, but I just wonder whether dressage could do that as well and maybe be a better fit for me and my horse.

[trubandloki]

@danhelm441

@mvp

If you think a course designer owes you three opening circles to get enough pace to make the strides down a line of 18" fences and/or you think you have figured out what the hunter divisions is all about after not winning at 2’, and feel it has nothing of value to offer you I respectfully submit that you are setting yourself up for a world of hurt. That could come sooner, that could come later. But the hunter divisions build good, accurate, tactful riding and a well-broke, safe jumping horse. In short, it’s a fantastic place to learn about and build the fundamentals that you will draw on every day when the jumps and speed and difficulty are all greater.

I love you ambition, but not your hubris. I don’t care if you think the hunters are just a spending contest or a beauty contest. But don’t decide it’s beneath you until you have taken what you need from it.

I don’t think that, though. I thought I would stay in the hunters long term. It’s just that in practice, I have a hard time making a good hunter round happen, or encouraging my horse to move more like a hunter in our flat classes. And in lessons, I don’t really feel like I get the tools to fix that. Maybe it’s the trainer-centered culture of the hunters in the sense that you’d get that by paying for training rides, not by paying for lessons to teach you to do it yourself. But the hunter coaching in general—not just my instructor, but the instructors I’ve watched at shows and at the in-gate—isn’t very analytical. It’s a lot more about what happened or didn’t happen, and less prescriptive with solutions to make it happen differently next time. There is also more emphasis on the rider than the horse, which is probably a function of the level I’m riding at.

I’m sure I’m not doing myself any favors by foregoing training rides. It’s just that I would rather learn how to do it myself, and maybe compete in a discipline where you’re encouraged to do that and the instruction is designed around doing that, even at the lowest level. I know the low-level hunters are supposed to instill really solid basics, but I just wonder whether dressage could do that as well and maybe be a better fit for me and my horse.

To me this reads like you might not have the best trainer for you and your horse to succeed and you are blaming an entire discipline and every trainer for that.

[danhelm441]

@mmeqcenter

How many hunter classes have you watched? At shows, online, etc.; do some research on what is expected in hunter flat classes, and maybe it will make more sense. I’m sure he’s a gorgeous guy, but if he isn’t what they’re looking for in a hunter under saddle, you won’t pin in a hunter under saddle class

No, I know, I wasn’t surprised that we didn’t place. I understood why we didn’t.

[Midge]

@danhelm441

But the hunter coaching in general—not just my instructor, but the instructors I’ve watched at shows and at the in-gate—isn’t very analytical. It’s a lot more about what happened or didn’t happen, and less prescriptive with solutions to make it happen differently next time. There is also more emphasis on the rider than the horse, which is probably a function of the level I’m riding at.

I think this is a function of two things.

One: at your level, you really can’t be taught how to teach your horse to do something you don’t know how to do. Your own comments here are focused on disappointing horse showing, not learning to ride or train your horse.

Two: Training happens at home. Show prep is not training so trainers at the in gate will not be reviewing the basics of how to keep your horse straight. They will tell you to keep your horse straight, because presumably you have been taught that at home.

At your level, you should be 100% trainer centric because you don’t know what you don’t know. What you do know is you are not winning at a very low level, so maybe stop showing and learn how to do the things that will help you win before throwing in the towel.

We’ve all been here, but changing disciplines will not help you win if you don’t know the basics.

[Midge]

@danhelm441

@mmeqcenter

How many hunter classes have you watched? At shows, online, etc.; do some research on what is expected in hunter flat classes, and maybe it will make more sense. I’m sure he’s a gorgeous guy, but if he isn’t what they’re looking for in a hunter under saddle, you won’t pin in a hunter under saddle class

No, I know, I wasn’t surprised that we didn’t place. I understood why we didn’t.

Wait…

@danhelm441

To me, we looked perfect. But we didn’t even place and,

[danhelm441]

@Midge

@danhelm441

No, I know, I wasn’t surprised that we didn’t place. I understood why we didn’t.

Wait…

@danhelm441

To me, we looked perfect. But we didn’t even place and,

Well, we looked perfect to me. I know we didn’t look perfect to a hunter flat class judge.

[Tha_Ridge]

@danhelm441

I’m sure I’m not doing myself any favors by foregoing training rides. It’s just that I would rather learn how to do it myself, and maybe compete in a discipline where you’re encouraged to do that and the instruction is designed around doing that, even at the lowest level. I know the low-level hunters are supposed to instill really solid basics, but I just wonder whether dressage could do that as well and maybe be a better fit for me and my horse.

You can do both. A trainer who gives good training rides sets both horse and rider up for success. I’m a pretty experienced amateur with experience bringing along young/green horses. My horses still get training rides. Because of that, when my trainers teach me, they know what I’m feeling underneath me and can better instruct me. It’s not about training rides being a crutch or me not learning to do it myself.

[eclipse]

This…. All horses and riders (unless you ride like a pro) can benefit from a good trainer riding your horses! I love getting on my horse after my trainer had put a training ride on him… because I can now feel how it’s supposed to be! And it’s not that I’m not a good rider and haven’t done a good job with him, I’m just not a pro rider and cannot do what she does! (My favourite saying “I make the mistakes and you fix them!”)

At shows, that’s not the time for lessons…. I go to the show prepared and come out of the ring and depending on the round trainer can say something like “excellent “ and that’s it because yay! Or I’ll get “well it was a bit under paced and that caused you to get too weak into your 5 stride so you had to rush the out” …. We don’t analyze every single fence and stride… that’s for at home in a lesson!