When is a good time to “move on” from the hunters, and where to move on to?

[trubandloki]

I want to add to the trainer at show thing that others are saying so well (lessons are for at home, etc).

Just because you listening does not hear something productive does not mean that the rider and the trainer are not communicating in a way that they both understand and works for the rider/horse.

You might hear - That first corner was horrible - The rider hears - I need to sit up more on the ends to make sure I balance him all the way to the corner, we have been working on that in every lesson and I failed on the first line.

[GoodTimes]

To add to that, all trainers have strengths and weaknesses. My trainer likes to get on once in awhile so that he can better understand what the issue is. He’ll often hop on for five minutes during a lesson, which I love. You have the opportunity to watch and learn, then try it yourself.
Training rides shouldn’t be a crutch, they’re a tool.

[Renn_aissance]

Some trainers have a very analytical style. Others do not. I have ridden with trainers who subscribed to the “I want you to hear my voice in your head at every stride when you’re going around the ring” style of coaching. I’ve also ridden with people who tried to develop my voice inside my own head, and let me figure things out for myself. I do better with the first type, and that is also my own teaching style. I do think it is very difficult for that very analytical teaching style to coach beginners and novice riders, unless the rider has an athletic background, because a lot of that style is best applied to minutiae of the rider’s body control and precision of aids and most beginner and novice riders are still developing this. This is also why most beginner and novice instruction is focused on the rider rather than the horse. At this level the horse should be basically suitable and the rider needs to develop the foundational skills to influence its way of going. Actually, a fair amount of advanced instruction is also focused on the rider… since the rider is producing the horse, and the horse would just be eating grass if left to its own devices, and didn’t necessarily sign on to a rigorous program of instruction.

However, OP, this sounds like a good conversation to have with your instructor. What would you like them to do differently? Specifically, your trainer asks you to do X- what kind of instruction would meet your desire for a more analytical instruction than the way they are saying X? Do you know what type of teaching style clicks with the way you learn? Have a discussion! Your instructor can’t help you if they don’t know what you’re struggling with.

[Scribbler]

There’s lots of good advice here.

I’d also add that it’s true some h/j coaches don’t have the tools on their kit, or can’t verbalize what those tools are, compared to a very good dressage coach. But many low end dressage coaches are rather awful too.

OP, are you in regular lessons? What does your coach tell you to work on? Are you doing counting strides and establishing a rhythm over poles? I would say book up two lessons a week for the next couple of months and do your homework. Get at least one trainer ride from your coach you can watch to see how your horse does all this at the optimum.

Could be rider error, or rider error on a green horse. Impossible to tell from your account.

Also, you’ve only been jumping a short time. Is this your first show? Why would you expect to be placing in something you are this new at?

[danhelm441]

@Scribbler

OP, are you in regular lessons? What does your coach tell you to work on? Are you doing counting strides and establishing a rhythm over poles? I would say book up two lessons a week for the next couple of months and do your homework. Get at least one trainer ride from your coach you can watch to see how your horse does all this at the optimum.

We have been working on it. Actually we recently had a clinic where the clinician recognized my horse from his previous life. She asked what we were working on, and when I mentioned our canter problems, she laughed and said she definitely remembered him for his canter. When we did the first exercise, which was just jumping a single line and halting on the rail, she congratulated us for keeping the same canter the whole time and seemed really pleased. I took that to mean he was once much worse, because I wouldn’t have expected him to change up the canter in a single line. She said he used to take off after a jump and was hard to bring back.

[danhelm441]

@Renn_aissance

Specifically, your trainer asks you to do X- what kind of instruction would meet your desire for a more analytical instruction than the way they are saying X? Do you know what type of teaching style clicks with the way you learn? Have a discussion! Your instructor can’t help you if they don’t know what you’re struggling with.

My instructor is exactly what I wanted as a lessons-only rider. She is not much of a talker, but sets up exercises where it’s the exercise that teaches you, not the voiceover.

Now that I ride primarily outside of lessons and can repeat those exercises on my own time, I feel like it’s changed what I want in lessons. I still benefit from her teaching style, but sometimes wish she were better at diagnosing problems. If we get to a bad take-off spot because we were crooked to a jump cantering out of a turn, she’ll say, “get straighter to the jump and you’ll get a better take-off spot.” But what I need is more like, “half half going into the corner and if he bulges to the outside and blows off your leg, use a crop because he may be going fast but that doesn’t mean he’s listening.”

And with our issues on hunter courses, for example, it wasn’t until writing about it here that it occurred to me our big, glaring problem is the opening circle. It makes sense because we never practice that at home. Our ring is small and we always canter on the rail before starting a course. It seems really obvious now why that would trip us up at shows. But it’s not something we’ve ever talked about or worked on.

But that said, we have still improved a lot. It’s just that the goal post is always changing. I also don’t want to kvetch about my trainer because I’m capable of figuring these things out and practicing them, I have to take accountability for my own progress or lack thereof. I do still think maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree in seeing hunters as our be-all, end-all goal, but there’s no reason we can’t cross-train in dressage with an outside trainer and use what we learn there to be more consistent in 2ft hunter courses.

[Scribbler]

Well, the value of competing is to see how you stack up against an outside eye under pressure. When I’ve done dressage tests, I’ve had a video plus the comments to review at home and with a coach. There are lots of things I wouldn’t have believed if I hadn’t seen the video. Yes, we were on the forehand for two seconds in that transition and it doesn’t matter I fixed it: the judge saw it.

It sounds like you need either a coach with better articulation of problem solving strategies, or you need to start being your own coach in your head. Feel what the horse is doing wrong in the corner, and then figure out how to fix it. You don’t need to set up jumps for this. You could just have poles on the ground and ride large/diagonal patterns. Large and circle.

If he bulges you need to work on some basic lateral stuff which is the foundation for straightness.

As our riding improves we need instructors with more articulate problem solving strategies, who give us concepts we can modify and use in different scenarios. Not just talking us through an exercise. But being able to say: Your horse is showing problem X at all times but it really becomes critical when you ride to the jump. It can’t be managed merely by applying aids on the approach to the jump. You need to school him to move differently on the flat.

In this case, X might be going crooked, bulging, running through half halts, falling on the forehand and rushing, refusing to keep a given pace, etc. Could be anythjng or combination. But guaranteed it is not just magically appearing on the approach to the jump. It’s there all the time, but might only be obvious in one direction or at speed. So you need a coach that can identify the core issues and direct you how to resolve them over time. This is more about gymnasticizing the horse than about disciplining him. They don’t bulge or rush to be naughty. They do ir because they can’t hold themselves on balance.

I also think it’s important not to let ego or dreams of glory get in the way of any riding experience. No discipline is the be-all and end-all. It sounds like you and your horse still have a lot to learn to be competent in 2 foot hunters. Stay with these basic skills. Realize that the whole trick of riding is to make the impossible look easy and there has been a lot of work put into any horse that is going around the 2 foot quietly and in stride. They are not born like that! Now some juniors and intermediate adults in all disciplines are lucky enough to be able to afford made horses, but most of us aren’t. And even there you need to be able to ride them.

If you are curious, you could try taking some lessons on schoolmaster horses. That will show you how much rider error is in your current equation.

And yes, the goal post is always changing. That’s what is wonderful about horses. You never get to the end of it. And when a given horse maxes out or ages out, there’s a new horse. Ideally at that point you bring way more skills to the project and maybe select a more talented prospect for your new horse, even just choosing between equivalent bargain horses.

[conniemary]

@danhelm441

I do still think maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree in seeing hunters as our be-all, end-all goal, but there’s no reason we can’t cross-train in dressage with an outside trainer and use what we learn there to be more consistent in 2ft hunter courses.

It sounds like you are interested in trying dressage, so try it. It won’t be easier than hunters but it may make more sense to you, or it may help you figure out why you started hunters in the first place.

[Scribbler]

Good dressage might give OP the tools and concepts needed to get her horse straight and off the aids. Bad dressage will just be a tug of war, of course.

[173north]

@ExpialidociousOTTB

I think saying riders need to be jumping 3’ before being able to show is very exclusionist.

I totally agree, and this old saw that “back in the day, shows started at 3’6!!!” is so frustrating to me. It’s not 1970, the sport has changed, and I think having show opportunities at every level benefits the entire sport. Last summer I was happily jumping around 3’ - 3’3 at home, and then I went and showed in the .85m jumpers. I hadn’t shown in years, I didn’t care about ribbons or impressing people, and I wanted to go have a fun, low-pressure day out. Which I did! Mission accomplished. Should I have just… stayed home rather than sully the showgrounds with my tragic riding?

[Night_Flight]

@danhelm441

And with our issues on hunter courses, for example, it wasn’t until writing about it here that it occurred to me our big, glaring problem is the opening circle. It makes sense because we never practice that at home. Our ring is small and we always canter on the rail before starting a course. It seems really obvious now why that would trip us up at shows. But it’s not something we’ve ever talked about or worked on.

You’ve received some great advice so far. I just wanted to add that part of what your coach should help you with at a show is looking at the layout of the show ring and helping you decide how you should enter the ring and begin your course.

That includes both the pattern and the gait. In some cases, you might be able to adjust your opening circle to give yourself more space to get your canter established.

Keep in mind that most horses will slow down and shorten their stride on a circle, so don’t throw in a circle unnecessarily before starting your course. You see it a lot at the lower levels where a rider will trot to the far end, pick up a canter and then circle before making their way to the first jump headed towards home, but if the first jump is coming towards home, you can pick up your canter on your way to the far end of the ring and just keep coming to the first jump; no need for extra circles that will just take away from your canter.

[Danvers]

You are my hero!

[eclipse]

Also remember, if you always need a large opening circle (or canter around the ring) to establish a good canter to get to fence 1 on course, then you definitely are not ready to step up in height! Your horse needs to be able to step through that in gate and immediately pick up a canter and go to fence 1 in a handy Hunter class ….unless you are willing to never place! And yes, lower heights have these types of classes. Actually it’s a skill you need for every discipline….mistakes happen, and you need to be able to correct immediately and there’s nothing worse and sometimes as scary as, you put your leg on in a 2 stride you’ve jumped weak into and nothing happens……that’s how crashes happen!

Edited to add……I very rarely do an opening circle……normally fence 1 is coming back toward the Ingate, so thats lots of time to establish a good canter! Usually I will walk or trot down the long wall and halfway to 3/4 pick ups canter and then approach the fence. Closing circles are a different matter….unless it’s a handy class, the final fence is generally somewhere in the vicinity of the gate and I always will do a closing circle and as I’m finishing it, we come down to a walk, and then walk out of the ring.

This comes from training at home…your horse needs to respect your leg and respect it immediately when you ask for a transition. And, in the hunters, this transition is invisible to spectators eyes….it’s a hard skill to master! At shows, when I hear my trainer say “haaaands” in my head I hear “my hands are getting too high, my body behind the motion, I need to relax, get off his back and allow Sullivan to canter forward and be relaxed” ……everyone else just hears “hands”….it’s all the training behind the scenes that’s ingrained the meaning for me!

[Danvers]

I think all riders could benefit from a few dressage lessons… or more!

[Tha_Ridge]

I definitely didn’t meant to trot out that old chestnut (heh, pun!) with my comment about some trainers not letting their kids do lower-level jumpers nor did I mean to imply that such classes shouldn’t exist. Of course they should! But as we all know, the sad reality of the matter is that not everyone approaches riding a 2’6” jumper course in the same way they would a 4’ jumper course, even though the technical basis and correctness should be the same. It just sounds like OP is somewhat motivated by winning (it’s fine, we all are to some extent) and I wanted to make it clear that she’s not likely to win in the 2’ jumpers either unless she lets the tenets of good riding go out the window.

[Foxglove]

[173north]

No worries! I was referring to a different poster in the thread, and also the coterie of people on this forum and especially FB who just bemoan “the good old days” when you stayed home until you could jump a 3’6 class.

I’m obviously all for sub 3’ show classes because I just want everyone to be able to enjoy themselves at a show, but agree a lot of people in those divisions, including the winners, choose chaos rather than using the division as a place to build a good foundation.

As a wise trainer once said to me, “We don’t want to win the 3’ jumpers. We’re just using that class to prepare to win the 1.20 down the line.”

[Danvers]

Wow! Just Wow! You are the true Warrior Queen! Come the revolution, I am riding with you!

[StormyDay]

All I can say is, come to the jumper dark side, you can wear whatever you like, many shows offer optimum time for the lower height classes, and we have more fun

[McGurk]

Hunters can be incredibly frustrating; because what looks easy and effortless on the show ground can take years of hard work to produce.

I’d like to second, third or fourth the advice to ask to ride a schoolmaster, maybe even lease one short term. You are trying to reproduce something that you’ve never experienced, only ever had explained, and perhaps not explained well. Sitting on a horse that actually picks up the correct lick in its hunter circle and carries it to the first fence and jumps out of stride can be life changing. (Yes, you’ll still have to sit up and steady on the last line coming home - they’re horses, not machines.) Having felt what it’s supposed to feel like will be a huge help when you try to recreate it on your horse.

I absolutely agree with everyone who’s said, if you’re not enjoying it, do something else. Horses are supposed to be our joy, and most of us make a lot of sacrifices to keep horses and riding in our lives. You should be questioning your path if you’re not understanding/not enjoying it.

That said, I will tell you that the problems that you’re experiencing are absolutely going to carry over to other disciplines. You’ll still need to understand pace, balance, impulsion and ring geometry in other disciplines. If I’m at a low level jumper show or an event, I can absolutely tell the riders who came from a solid hunter background and those who didn’t, because of their ability to establish a rhythm in the canter and keep it all way through the course. However, if you’re going to have more fun working on those things in a different discipline, go for it!

Before you do, though, it might be helpful to invest a little time learning about hunters and how they’re judged. Ask your coach to sit with you during a couple of classes at a show and critique the trips; maybe even mark a mock card and explain the notations and placings to you. There are some excellent books and online resources as well. (PM me if you like.) I’m astonished at the number of people showing who think that the judge doesn’t like them or their horse when they pin a late change below a trip with a chip.

I grew disillusioned with the hunters, too; I just didn’t have the right combo of money and talent to play in the big leagues. But I wouldn’t change my background in the hunters for anything; the skills I gained in my time in hunterworld were invaluable when I moved on to other disciplines.

At long last, I’m going to give a concrete answer to your first question: consider moving on when you can ride a trip at the same pace and rhythm all the way around a course. I don’t care if that pace means you add in every line, or leave out a stride in every line; just that the pace stays the same from beginning to end, and that the horse jumps from ~ the same spot at every fence, be it long, short or just right. Doesn’t have to be on your horse, either. And the height of the fences doesn’t really matter - this can be just as hard to do over poles on the ground as it is over 2’6"

Best of luck to you, and please post back and update us on your journey.