When is a hunter prospect most valuable?

[winter]

If an amateur were making up a fancy hunter prospect from scratch (starting it as a 3 year old) specifically as a future sales prospect, when do you think is the most prudent time to sell the horse? Assuming the horse appears to have the looks, talent and attitude to be a legitimate 3’6" horse or better one day and that the owner has the inclination and money to do the first few years of campaigning.

Obviously there is a balance between the cost of putting the miles on the horse at the right venues vs the money one could get for the horse if it turns out to be a top horse. As well there are always the inherent risks that the horse does not live up to it’s potential, becomes difficult or gets injured. However, assuming that the horse remains sound and fancy and is easy enough for the amateur to do and that they are well funded and competent enough to take the horse through a solid few years of showing when would be the ‘ideal’ time to sell? Which level of horse has the biggest market/interest? Going into first year greens? Second year? After the baby green year? Also, What age is considered ideal by buyers for the horse to be in first year’s ect?
Thanks!

[fordtraktor]

Whenever you get an offer higher than you think horse is currently worth–definitely a good time to sell. The longer you keep it, the more you have in it.

I keep a “sale price” in mind for everything but my senior citizen (who is worth the world to me but is valueless to anyone esle) and will sell if I get a higher offer, I have promised myself. Every time I haven’t the animal has soon thereafter developed a soundness issue. It is the Murphy’s Law of good horses. The price in my mind changes depending on how the horse is going, as it ages, etc.

[Lucassb]

The ones I have sold have generally brought the best prices when they are ready (or possibly have just begun) to show in the first years. The last one I sold, a couple of years ago, actually showed twice in the 3’6" at WEF and the buyer ended up reinstating his green year since it was early enough to do so. She has since been extremely successful with him so it worked out for everyone.

[osgoka01]

I’m with Lucassb on this… A solid year in the PreGreens and just stepping up is great because the horse is ready to go. My last horse also had just moved up to the 3’6 AOs before she sold & the new owners had her reinstated.

I have seen a lot of nice baby green horses on the market for ages but they just aren’t selling.

[Nickelodian]

Doing at least the 3’3 seems to be the sweet spot IMHO. To me, a horse that is just stepping into the 3’3 or just stepping into the 3’6 sells for significantly more than the 2’6 baby green or 3’ pre green horse. They’ve typically got enough miles under them at that point that you know how the judges really like them, how they place in good company, and that they’re far enough along that a less experienced ammy can do them in the 3’ while the pro continues their learning getting that horse ready for an ammy 3’6er.

I think 6-8 year old first year horse makes me happy, at least in the WBs. My typical experience has been, started jumping/baby greens as a 4yo. 3’ 5yo, 3’3 6yo, 3’6 7 yo. Some are faster than this. I got my current horse Dec of his 4yo year, only 60 days under saddle. Just stepped up into the 3’3s and he’s a 6yo now, so a year and a half later. I’m thinking he’ll probably sell in the next 6 months to a year.

He’s similar to your description, fancy, ammy friendly, can do the 3’6 no problem. He’s got several champions under his belt, and some national derbies. Champion the second try at the 3’3 a/os. He was sold, but the deal fell through to no fault of the horse’s or my own.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7110751]

I think 6-8 year old first year horse makes me happy, at least in the WBs. My typical experience has been, started jumping/baby greens as a 4yo. 3’ 5yo, 3’3 6yo, 3’6 7 yo. Some are faster than this. I got my current horse Dec of his 4yo year, only 60 days under saddle. Just stepped up into the 3’3s and he’s a 6yo now, so a year and a half later. I’m thinking he’ll probably sell in the next 6 months to a year. [/QUOTE]

I’m glad to hear you say this. Again, what I know about the hunter world could fill one boot (Size 8 M) – by background is racing and currently dressage/endurance breeding.

But I have heard horror stories of horses in that discipline jumping in competition as 3 yr olds!! I mean, jumping a whole course! To me that is a recipe for future issues…

Not meaning to bash the hunter world, as I know all disciplines have their abuses, but it’s nice to hear this isn’t the only way to go…

[equisusan]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7110769]
I’m glad to hear you say this. Again, what I know about the hunter world could fill one boot (Size 8 M) – by background is racing and currently dressage/endurance breeding.

But I have heard horror stories of horses in that discipline jumping in competition as 3 yr olds!! I mean, jumping a whole course! To me that is a recipe for future issues…

Not meaning to bash the hunter world, as I know all disciplines have their abuses, but it’s nice to hear this isn’t the only way to go…[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you are refering to the hunter futurity stuff. I agree I’m not a fan of them either. Too much too young. I also ride TBs and mine are a year or 2 behind Nickelodian’s pace. It’s too much too young for me too. My horses have all stayed showing into their 20s so I’m willing to go slower at the beginning.

I agree the best time to sell is when they are at least starting in their target division.

[findeight]

Think it’s most valuable when it has demonstrated, via show results on good competition, it can do the job a buyer intends. Be it 3’ packer or 3’6" Junior or even High Performace/ Derby. Show me… But before it runs out of any Green eligibility.

So midway thru it’s Pre Green or First Year, soon as its placing well, is your sweet spot price wise.

[merrygoround]

All good advice for selling any horse.

[Cannonball]

[QUOTE=findeight;7112205]
Think it’s most valuable when it has demonstrated, via show results on good competition, it can do the job a buyer intends. Be it 3’ packer or 3’6" Junior or even High Performace/ Derby. Show me… But before it runs out of any Green eligibility.

So midway thru it’s Pre Green or First Year, soon as its placing well, is your sweet spot price wise.[/QUOTE]

^^^^^ Yep!

To get the “top dollar” you need a horse to be in the market where the most money is available. Pre-green and 1st year green is the “honey hole”. Pro’s like to have that nice pregreen horse to take in the 1st years and easily qualify for Devon and possibly make a derby horse. Junior’s love to buy a well made Pregreen and show it in Children’s then move up to Juniors when their Pro rider starts it in 1st year greens. Or Juniors will buy the successful 1st year horses as their Junior hunter mounts. Any of these put you in the market where the most money is available.

[winter]

Thank you so much, these replies are really helpful. Especially the insight about the juniors, I hadn’t thought about the junior market at all and I don’t know why, just haven’t been around any juniors (or hunters in general) in a while.

Also, the timeline of ages Nickelodian was exactly what I was thinking. Baby greens at four, then move up from there to the 3’ as a five year old and hopefully progress each year therafter aiming for 3’6" around 7. Cheers

[Nickelodian]

[QUOTE=Cannonball;7112243]
Junior’s love to buy a well made Pregreen and show it in Children’s then move up to Juniors when their Pro rider starts it in 1st year greens. Or Juniors will buy the successful 1st year horses as their Junior hunter mounts. Any of these put you in the market where the most money is available.[/QUOTE]

Exact same concept as the ammy. Let the pro do it in the 1st years finishing the make up of the 3’6, while they show in the 3’. Ammys are lucky to have that 3’3 division to play in (or stay in) that pays well, and don’t have to have the guts and glory at the 3’6.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7113184]
Exact same concept as the ammy. Let the pro do it in the 1st years finishing the make up of the 3’6, while they show in the 3’. Ammys are lucky to have that 3’3 division to play in (or stay in) that pays well, and don’t have to have the guts and glory at the 3’6.[/QUOTE]

Interesting…I’m learning alot.

So is there REALLY that big a difference between 3’3 and 3’6"? I mean, the only jumping I ever did was back when I worked on the track. In Aiken one of my fellow grooms was also affiliated with the Aiken Hunt, so he always had afew “packer” horses we could borrow.

I remember we use to ride in the huge park in Aiken (forgot the name…) and go to a place called “Cathedral Aisle”…it is this long, grassy stretch with 4-6 brush jumps.

We’d pretend we were doing the Grand National…I mean we took those jumps at pretty much a full gallop…back then I had great balance from galloping race horses, so I knew if the horse would do it, so could I.:eek:

Damn, that was fun…and it sucks getting old and crippled…:mad:

But my question is that I doubt a little 3" would between 3’3" and 3’6" would have made much of a difference to the horse, even going at that speed. Why does it make such a difference in the rider?

Question #2:if there are any dressage/hunter people out there: how would you equate the levels in dressage (Intro, Training, First, Second, etc.) with the levels in hunters?

Because in dressage the heaviest market is still in horses for people who really can’t ride that well, but enjoy it and have the money to do it as a true “hobby”. I don’t really consider these people “horsemen”, but it seems they are the ones who support the pros.

Perhaps it has always been so…but my question, is this true in h/j as well? Or just hunters? And how can a little 3" make that much of a difference?

I suppose I should post this in another thread…

[Nickelodian]

This question has been well covered by this forum several times. But in a nutshell it’s not the 3", which in reality does sound like a very small difference. From 3’ to 3’3 to 3’6 the distance in the lines changes about a foot and a half for each height increase. In addition to that the Oxer width goes wider about 3" for each height increase as well. Add on all the brush/flowers/boxes/walls at the base of the jump and you can end up with a really WIDE jump.

As a result, the horse that can really have the hunter pace, form, style, and stride length to do the 3’6 is a far cry from the animal that can do it at the 3’. Same goes for the rider. You need to be more accurate, and bolder to the fences to not result in a mishap.

Remember, we’re not galloping, we’re cantering with a rhythm to the base of the jump and hoping for a spectacular knee snapping effort over it. Unless you’re in a handy and it calls for a hand gallop.

The 3’ division tends to be the largest, followed by the 3’3, then the 3’6 for the ammys. Same goes for the 3’ childrens then 3’6 juniors. And most of these riders are also paying for the pro to do the horse during the week to prep it for them.

I would say, yes the hobby horsemen support the pros, but that’s kind of the model right? That’s why the winner who is truly ammy friendly (quiet, takes a joke, jumps the same no matter how badly the person rides, etc) is worth their weight dipped in gold.

[Lady_Eboshi]

When you have someone standing ringside pawing in their pocket for their checkbook! Take that chance to sell, there are legions of people who said, gee, in a year he’ll be worth TWICE that–and then couldn’t sell him!

Make an opportunity, TAKE an opportunity when presented!