When is a rider ready to move up -over 2'6?

There’s a whole lot of space between 2’ and 3’. If your horse is a packer at 2’3" but not higher, perhaps trying the 2’3" - 2’6" increment will point out some issues to the rider?

For my part, if my horse is a packer at 2’3" and getting leased for that height, I’m not sure I’d be willing to let it jump higher, and certainly not make the jump to 2’9" (much less 3’).

10 Likes

So, how does she do at the shows in the 2’6”? Laying down good trips regularly and pinning well? Over 2’6” fences set at a 10-11’ step with friendly “spreads” typically with no combinations? Nailing all the changes?

There is a huge difference between jumping a single, airy fence set at 3’ and navigating a course set at 3’ with 12-13’ strides and combinations with walls, roll tops and such.

If you want to consider it, make sure she earns her way into it by mastering the 2’6” and then the 2’9” with the increasing height, step and spread before she steps up.

Frankly, that is alot of work for a horse represented as a 2’-2’6” packer on a part lease and if it was me, I would just say no because it is my horse and my decision. Is there any pressure from the trainer? Oh, and renegotiate the price if you decide to let her use him as a move up horse.

12 Likes

I agree with everyone who has said this.

3 Likes

Even if your horse is great at 3’, and the rider is doing really well, I’d say no. I don’t find it worth the wear and tear on the horse. There’s nothing wrong with just politely saying no.

7 Likes

As the French girl in the room, I’m always a little baffled by how “big a deal” 90 cm (3’) seems to be here. My own school horses in the U.S. (mostly grade types, AQHAs, POAs and various other pony crosses) all jump that with intermediate riders when they’re ready.
And back home, 90 cm is just entry level at shows, etc - no one sees it as undue wear and tear. The research there seems to back that up: the concussion difference between 70 cm and 90 cm is minimal for a sound horse with good conformation; the real stress only really increases around 1.10 m+.

The way I do it is my lesson kiddos is structured in a way similar to what @McGurk described:

  1. Start with a bigger fence as the out of a grid.
  2. Then single obstacles with placing poles.
  3. Then related distances and small courses.
  4. And then we repeat that entire progression again at this height without stirrups before a rider moves up.

If they can do all that safely and repeatedly (my rule is at least 3 times on 3 different school horses), they’re ready to go up in height and/or difficulty (go XC schooling, etc). But it’s certainly not a leap from 70 cm straight to 90 cm, and certainly not after just 3 months. (in my experience, it takes about 1.5 to 2 years of bi-weekly lessons to go through that progression (1 through 4 above) before you are solid at that level with or without stirrups on whatever I put you on that is safe and experienced at that level (maybe less for super athletic college kids with good body awareness but the average teenager needs longer).

And OP, it’s your horse and your rules, and if you are asking the question here and having concerns, I believe you already have your answer. :wink: In your situation, I wouldn’t let the kid jump my horse over what they are currently doing - especially if she’s inexperienced and he needs a bit more help to enjoy his job at that height.

7 Likes

I have a few thoughts here:
First and foremost- I don’t know what the arrangement is, but what did you represent/price the horse to be? If you represented him as a starter/novice horse and priced that accordingly, then absolutely not, you’re not jumping him higher.

You mentioned lessons. What does the trainer have to say about rider moving up?

When I have students clamoring to “move up” (meaning “jump higher”), we talk about why they want to do that. “I’ve been jumping this height for the last year”, “I’m bored”, “My friends are all jumping higher”, “My goal is to jump higher”. None of those are good reasons to jump higher. The good reasons need to sound more like: “My horse and I are consistent and confident at the lower height. I am reliably accurate. I am willing to invest in maintenance to keep my partner comfortable”.

7 Likes

The jump from 2’6 to 3’ is more than just six inches on paper. At 2’6, most sound horses with good conformation can pack a rider around without much added wear and tear — the arc is fairly flat, the landing impact is light, and it doesn’t take much extra effort beyond a canter stride. But once you push up to 3’, the dynamics change. The horse has to use more power to get across, the takeoff and landing angles are steeper, and the concussion on the joints, tendons, and ligaments increases. That’s where you start to see long-term wear and tear if it’s done frequently, especially with less experienced riders who may not always stay balanced, get questionable distances that maybe the horse will have to put effort in getting itself out of. Someone’s risk with their personal horse is much different than a string of lesson horses, which is bought with the specific purpose of teaching.

13 Likes

Exactly ! Well said.

2 Likes

Oh for sure - which is why I had said that her horse = her rules.

Re. jump height - the research I have seen doesn’t quite support 90 cm/3ft being problematic though. What I have seen was at 1.10+. Can you point me to the studies you have in mind?

2 Likes

I think the difference between what you’ve experienced and what we’re experiencing in the US now is the extreme shortage of school horses and low level lease horses.

Most lesson programs right now don’t allow students to jump above 2’ 6" on a lesson horse; if you want jump higher or compete at a higher level, you need to lease a horse. That makes the difference between 2’ and 3’ pretty significant. Add into that the oddity of American hunters and equitation, where it’s not enough that the horse can jump the height safely, they must have a flying change, preferably auto, and ideally, be able to make the striding in the lines.

When I worked in that excellent lesson program, our school horses were all sourced for $2500 or less, schooled and brought along by the more advanced kids in the lesson program until they were suitable for lower level students.

Any decently sound horse of decent temperament, with or without any education, goes for 5 - 10K, if you can find them, and the pool or barn rats or working students to school a potential lesson horse has dried up as well.

I don’t know how the lesson programs still in existence manage to keep going, and I think entry into this sport is getting tougher and tougher.

11 Likes

Absolutely, I think you are spot on. In Continental Europe, you have a riding school in pretty much every town. Everyone jumps - but it’s true not in a hunter/equitation way. And so what is considered a hunter/jumper “packer” here is probably quite different from what I would expect to use in a lesson string.

3 Likes

Another tiresome ‘back in the day’ story :grin: … back when dinosaurs grazed alongside the horses … everyone who jumped for more than a year or so was jumping 3’6". That wasn’t “high”. It wasn’t nothing, either. But any reasonably competent rider would get there. We were not geniuses, we weren’t headed to big shows.

The lowest class entry, the beginner jumpers, was 2’6". Of course people started over their first jumps at lower heights, but quickly worked up to a standard 2’6".

We also rode our horses across huge tracts of natural open land, thousands of acres. That wasn’t weird, it was just a Saturday. We had jumping courses that had solid ‘natural’ jumps that I now know are eventing cross-country – we called it ‘field hunter’. We went on group rides over long distances, along roadsides and across open land. Oh, and, everyone who rode did so at least twice a week, three times was common. And so on.

From beginner status on, we saw these things happening all around us, had examples to emulate of riders not much older. This context was part of the natural progression of learning riding, if you continued to ride and gain skills. It was customary, usual, normal.

In the U.S. there has been a gigantic change in riding culture for jumping. And other things. Riders who are afraid to leave the ring other than to walk to another ring. Riders who haven’t seen anyone jumping more than an 18" crossrail, who think that an 18" straight horizontal bar is a big ask. And so on.

Big factors seem to include the suburbanization of former rural locations, the lack of exposure to any farms or animals other than a riding school, as well as the demands on everyone’s time that limits the participation of many people to one hour a week in a very structured setting. So many riders never experience the context of higher levels of riding and expectations. So it isn’t in their expectations.

5 Likes

Expectations are huge. Expectations are built by what we see around us every day.

The available horses are also a huge factor. Sound adult horses in the right age range, with a fair amount of energy and life experience, don’t normally have a problem becoming competent at 3’.

But in a world where no one is jumping that high, the horses as well as the riders frame their expectations around the low jumps. A horse that is only loping around 2’ courses, never doing more than that, is not going to adjust well to suddenly being faced with 2’9" or 3’.

Whereas the horse that has been started and brought along with different, higher, expectations, will comfortably canter over 3’. They’ve been trained with that expectation and with a program that produces that result.

But that background is not the case with many U.S. lesson horses and lower-level amateur horses today. The horse does some simple 2’ and stays there. The horse can easily lift a teeny bit more – sometimes the exact same effort – and clear 2’3". After that, the horse starts to notice and wonders how to balance this wobbly rider over higher jumps that the horse lacks much experience with. And is getting no help from the rider to understand. Things go wonky, and the height is still low, relatively speaking.

And the shows frame up lower and lower height divisions, just to give once-a-week riders without much riding background a way to enjoy their horse and strive for ribbons. Those horses, as well as those riders, get comfortable with this. And start flinching at higher jumps that aren’t all that high.

3 Likes

First of all, I have a great leaser. My horse really likes her and she is very caring and a hard worker.

There was a height limit on the lease of 2’3 -2’6. Although she does eventually want to jump bigger jumps, I just found out that her instructor is the one who pressed her into asking to move up. This is interesting because this instructor is young and I doubt that she has ever taught more than beginner jumping. Why she pressed her student into asking for the move up is beyond me.

I had a chat with the instructor and she will keep her student at 2’3-2’6 for now. I am going to monitor the lessons, which will probably irritate her, but it’s my horse. Maybe she reads this forum and can incorporate the excellent suggestions made here into her teaching?

The instructor is not my trainer. My trainer is located at a different barn.

16 Likes

Just to say I love this and I’ll be stealing that phrase and use that next time I tell the lesson kiddos a story of “back in the day”… :slight_smile:

2 Likes

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

Maybe trainer wants to expand her own reputation and sees your lovely horse as a way to do that. Which of course can backfire big time if she doesn’t really know what she’s doing and your horse needs a different ride at that height than what works in their easy comfort zone.

6 Likes

If the instructor is telling a 2’3" student “sure you can jump 2’9” and 3’!", implying now/soon, that’s a problem.

Also what instructor wouldn’t talk to the owner about a move up, instead of sending the kid?

10 Likes

OP, you said it was a partial lease? How many days a week is this kid riding? How many lessons and how many hack days?

I would not be too pleased with this kids trainer planting the idea of moving up on a partial lease horse with specific wording of a 2’6” limit in the contract-that is rude. That is unprofessional. IMO. Leads to a disappointed teen and an unhappy horse owner.

I might have a chat with this trainer rather then put the young rider in the middle of what should be an adult discussion about changing the lease terms. The answer is no,

14 Likes

The instructor and teen both sound young and don’t know what they don’t know. I’m sure neither have had to navigate this conversation before so I’d give them a little grace and take charge of the situation. Have a sit down with both of them together and talk though what is acceptable and how to appropriately communicate with a horse owner. That way they know how to correctly approach when she is actually ready to move up.

4 Likes