gggrrrrrr…it makes me so mad. a friends horse will kick. she kicks out behind or to the side ( cow kicks). To be fair, she does put a red ribbon on the tail, but says the horse is unhappy being at the very back. The real problem is that she’s afraid to discipline the horse. …I have mentioned in a nice way that the horse needs to know that behavior is NOT acceptable or she will never learn… this is in 2nd flight, not a newbie either… actually a landowner, but a good friend…what to do?
Dunno…I am feeling GRRRRR as well because my horse was kicked today - by a horse I knew could be sharp, but he let fly with no excuse, kicking out to the side as my horse went past. Caught my boy on the stifle, and luckily I think we got away with it but WHY do people not take kickers to the back!!! Just bad manners…
Oh, boy, I’ve got that problem (of several years’ duration) with a member of our trail riding group, who thinks that the red ribbon is fair warning and she is exempted from having to discipline her horse. And, I mean, horse will back up atcha, yards away- or you distance yourself from the horse and the rider changes position to get back up next to you!
It is a legitimate safety concern- for other horses, other riders, and the hounds. For the hunt, it can be a serious liability issue too- suppose some guest gets nailed and his/her insurance company can establish that the problem is longstanding, and common knowledge.
If I were in your shoes, I would have a friendly, quiet word with the Master- ideally in person, but on a non-hunting day- because this is really a problem a Master has to weigh in on, either directing the person to stay in the rear, even if the horse doesn’t like it, or to leave the horse at home.
I am going to grrrrr right along with you! Makes me so angry when people don’t discipline their horses. One rider’s horse (a good 17h+) went after my little 15.3h mare–teeth bared–very frightening–and all rider did was sort of shake the reins at his horse! I was furious! A few weeks later, same horse nailed the bridle(luckily) of another horse. Again, no discipline. Grrrrr!!! Feel better now that I have vented!
How about when you are escorting a junior on a pony…and some idiot on a nasty kicker keeps trying to get between you and your kid!!!
I mean…WTF??? Hello?? Child in tow!!! What part of this combination is not cluing you in???
And never disciplining the animal, despite several times the horse lifting it’s back leg in a cow kick during a check, and getting into a kick fest with another red ribboned tail.
Worse yet was this rider put me into the position of having to run interference, putting my boy in between her horse and the child so the kid had a wall of pony to protect her and her little pony. THREE TIMES I asked the rider to please not ride near me because I had a child behind me …and she would comply, but then would forget and…next thing I knew she was back at my side, or in front of me, or getting between me and my junior on the runs.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!
Why the grrr! here and not on the scene when the horse/owner/rider creates the problem? Is there some kind of etiquette that says that you cannot tell someone to discipline their horse, or that you will create a bad “attitude” in the field? Why does the Master have to handle this, is this another protocol or tradition of the hunt? Can one member of the hunt not tell another member when they are creating a potentially dangerous situation? As far as riding with a friend either on a trail ride, hunt, social group and not think that you can address this matter, I think that is more your problem than the person sitting on the kicking horse. Too many headless horsemen and women, it will too late when someone is savaged or bones are broken. This is why I love to ride by myself and am very selective about who I ride with, I cannot myself cope with stupidity silently.
Adding my GRRRRR!!! I want to watch the hounds, NOT spend my time watching the horses around me looking for the red ribbons that ALWAYS seem to gravitate to where I’m standing, and have riders that just NEVER seem to discipline the horse when it does kick out.
I have no problem telling a rider on a kicker to not ride near me. Always nicely, but I do tell them if they tend to hang near me for too long a period of time. Otherwise, I merely move away from them and stand elsewhere.
However, I shouldn’t have to say anything because by rights kickers belong at the back of the field. That red ribbon is not a “Get Out Of Jail Free” card to mingle at will among the mannerly horses and little kids on ponies!
GGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
Tell the Master, it’s part of their job to deal with members who are having problems. I am sure they will be happy to help you deal with it.
Well, riding along is certainly a solution as far as trail riding goes. But hunting is a group activity. “Any” horse might kick, but those who know what they are doing deal with it swiftly, correctively, and decisively, and apologize to the group before anyone might have a chance to say something. It is, unfortunately, the clueless who are the problem. Not even aware the horse has kicked out, often. Now- the one time I had the blazes kicked out of me, in the thigh, at full gallop, you can bet that I loudly said to the rider of the offending horse to get the (*&^ beast away from me when she approached to see if I was okay (severe bruise to the femur, dumb luck the angle was such that no break occurred and yes I did finish the day’s hunting). But, on the whole, no, one joe blow in the field cannot tell another joe blow what to do, or not do, with their horse. All are paying customers, and quite unlikely to defer to an ‘equal.’ That IS the Master’s job, and every Master knows that.
The ‘tradition’ is- as GTD mentioned- that if you have a known kicker, it wears that red ribbon AND you stay to the rear ALL DAY LONG. That’s just good manners and consideration for others, whether hunting or any other group activity. But then again, think about the zoo that is a warmup arena at a horse show.
Your proposal would be no different than walking up to a random horse owner at a barn and saying ‘you should be grooming your horse THIS way.’ Unsolicited advice is at a minimum ignored, more often you get a hostile/ defensive response.
The problem I mentioned in my earlier post- yes, I get after that person often on our group trail rides. Her reaction is huffiness followed by separation from my space, for a little while. Then we rinse and repeat. When I had the authority in that group- the exec board didn’t have the gumption to tell the person to never bring that horse on a group ride again. So there you go. All members do sign liability releases and fortunately there is a state law that helps in my state- but it’s a legitimate concern, I think, in a lot of parts of the country.
I have a mare that is a known kicker. Before I bought her, she went after me and my gelding and double-barrelled us before I realized what was happening. After I bought her, I spent a lot of time working with her on this issue. She is very good now. I don’t turn my back on her when riding with others. She is very good with one particular mare. She is getting better in groups. She really likes to be in front and doesn’t like being behind in group canters or gallops. We are working on this as well. I have been riding her regularly for 5 or so months now.
She is now very good riding in company at a slower pace with horses ahead and behind her. She is very good with horses travelling in the opposite direction. We are working on her behaviour like I said.
However, I am not one of those riders who will not discipline my horse. My mare gets slapped immediately, yelled at, and worked and turned away from the offending person. When she is calm again, we rejoin the group right where we left off. This has worked amazingly well!
I had one horse literally ride up our heinies. Mare didn’t do anything but pin her ears. I did tell the other horse and rider to back off which they did. I warned this particular rider well ahead of time to not ride my heiny. She did not listen. I don’t blame her, but I did correct my horse and her at the same time. She did not follow ettiquette.
I guess I am one of the few that will correct a horse for this behaviour. I know that it exists and I am very careful with her. Mare did unexpectedly kick out on trail a couple of weeks ago. I came off. No one was hurt. Mare did get worked out. I have since put her in the same situation, No reaction.
I will always have to be careful.
Hunting is not a trail ride. In the hunt field you can’t yell at your horse. That disturbs the hounds, staff and Huntsman, etc. You need to be quiet, so yanking your horse around, whipping it, or yelling – all activities that produce disturbing noise – are not appropriate rider behavior during the hunt.
About the best you can do is to remove yourself to the back of the field – which is where kickers belong, and whisper in your horse’s ear that you will KILL him/her if s/he does that again.
And keep well away from the other horses.
I don’t think so- everybody I know with few exceptions will get after a horse for kicking, or biting, or even making ugly faces which would be the start toward worse ugly acts.
GTD- I wouldn’t yell at a horse to fix kicking anyhow. But I have silent and effective techniques…
…that would work just fine in the hunt field. You are correct that one should not assume that all other activity will cease while you take appropriate actions with your horse…but an appropriate snatch and boot sequence as an immediate correction before turning to head meekly to the back while whispering apologies can be effective.
Ah, yes. The old surreptitious “one sided boot and rein yank” routine accompanied by a silent narrow eyed furious glare at horse’s ears. See that quite a bit in the hunt field - always good for a hidden smile from me because it can be so entertaining at times.
Also because it shows the rider does have a clue…and takes responsibility.
When kickers are not disciplined, the person near them on a young green horse that over reacted ends up on the ground with a shattered wrist that now has 8 screws and a plate in it. Don’t ask me how I know.
If one of mine even lifts a foot and looks funny they get their ever lovin’ ass kicked right there right now.
My father always said that if you are kicked then you were too close. . .
That being said, I have seen horses back up and kick. If that is the case, give them a “come to Jesus” moment and remove yourself.
Most horses will kick if someone is pressing on them too much.
I have seen a horse kicked in the hunt field where the kick broke its leg and it was put down right there. Horrible experience. Never forgotten it.
As for a member telling another to get the horse to the back, well, that just depends on who the member and offender are!!!
If a horse occasionally kicks, then a red ribbon is appropriate. I have even put a red ribbon on my horse’s tail to keep newbies off my rump. (nothing like having someones horses head in your back pocket)
If the horse is a real kicker then it is not suitable for the hunt field. Sorry. Might injure a hound.
Hunting is definitely a group activity and all parties need to be aware of what is around them. My youngster over the last month decided he didn’t another horse near him when we were galloping on the first run. So a red ribbon went in his tail and I brought the big heavy stick with me. To avoid a problem, I make sure I ride him out wide when we are galloping. Despite all that, I saw his ears go back one time. Sure enough there was someone behind him drafting like it was NASCAR. I turned around and asked them to back off before he took their teeth out.
So you can be as responsible as you can be but if people do stupid things …
Kicking is the one thing above all that I would never tolerate in the hunting field. If any of mine so much as lift a leg or even pull a face they would be taken aside for a beating that they would never forget. As far as the original question is concerned, I hate it when a kicker is not disciplined and would not hesitate to tell someone to do so in the clearest of terms I would alert the Master of the danger if they did not. The sensibilities of the rider to being told what to do would be very much secondary to the need for the horse to be disciplined.
Kicking is one of my real hot buttons.
My horse and I were double-barreled a few weeks ago. Rider was oblivious, her horse kicked me and my horse with a one-two kick. She fluttered her arms and didn’t do anything other than panic a bit and apologize. She admits “zoning out” when riding…dangerous to ride with.
On on hunt, a girl, who refused to discipline her very nasty mare, had a fit when her evil mare tried to attack my horse and I belted her horse in the face with my hunt crop with everything I could muster, as she was trying to bite my gelding’s face. I complained the master. I really wanted to whack the mare’s idiot owner. Another of the hand-flapping/whining types of owners.
It’s funny, I’ve also got a mule who when being ridden, has never raised a foot at any horse when being passed, run into behind or pushed from the side.
I definitely think that people who ride kickers need to be extra aware of their surroundings and the people near them. And yes, they need to discipline their horse in the event of a kick or an attempt.
However from the other side of the fence, I’ve seen so many people who are absolutely oblivious when they ride and don’t seem to care that a horse has a red ribbon in it’s tail. My old TB mare would kick when she was really crowded, which if everyone actually knew and practiced their riding ettiquette, wouldn’t be an issue. But it seemed to be time and time again. I’d have the ribbon, I’d do my best to let everyone know and keep myself in a spot where we had lots of room and we’d STILL have people follow with their horse’s face in mine’s tail. My mare wasn’t one that would seek out another horse to kick but if you pushed her space, she’d get upset. I used to get so frustrated because people just didn’t seem to get it. IMHO if you’re that ignorant and run up someone’s rear (even a horse that isn’t a “known” kicker) you deserve what you get. It’s like tailgating. If that person has to slam on the brakes and you hit them, guess who’s at fault.
I’ve seen some nice horses get pushed over the edge and become cranky and reactive because they’re so used to be crowded. Sometimes it’s not just the horse’s personality, it’s the result of a certain environment. Whereas some horses are just saints and they wouldn’t kick no matter what’s happening. My current mare is like that, she will pin her ears on occasion but has never ever lifted a foot.
I guess what I’m trying to get at is that the courtesy and ettiquette goes both ways. People need to be mindful of their horse if it’s a kicker and those around need to be mindful too.
I don’t think it’s fair to blame the rider’s or those horses entirely if it’s a case of the horse being overly crowded. If the horse is seeking out another to go after, then that’s a totally different story. If it’s that nasty of a horse, I do agree though, it should be left at home!
But Brigit, if you are hunting a confirmed kicker, the etiquette is put that red ribbon on the horse’s tail AND you stay to the rear where no one can get on your horse’s business end!
Now- in general- you are absolutely correct, everyone should be following the rules and not tailgating or crowding anybody, red ribbon or not. Most horses WILL get cranky if they’ve got a bit in their butt for miles on end- that is why there is another warning signal, the hand behind the back, to tell the (idiot) rider BACK OFF, MY NORMALLY SAINTLY HORSE IS THINKING ABOUT KICKING YOURS BECAUSE OF INFLICTED AGGRAVATION.
However- to state it plainly- those who choose to continue hunting a confirmed kicker have to accept that their place is in the rear, all the time. The very practical and polite reason for this is that stuff happens to all of us, and safety has to be as paramount as can reasonably be made.
Suppose someone, in the middle of the first flight, moving briskly along a wooded single file trail, who has to duck to avoid a branch and whose horse suddenly accelerates closer to the next horse- and that horse is a known kicker with a red ribbon that nails the approaching horse, possibly causing injury to that horse or fall of rider. That’s just an unacceptable end result for ducking to avoid a branch. And, again, to state it plainly, that IS the kicker’s rider’s fault- knowingly exposing others to risk by putting that confirmed kicker where it can do harm.
To state it another way- the presence of the red ribbon does not absolve the rider of the kicking horse of ANY responsibility, nor does it put all the responsibility on other riders to avoid that horse.
