Well, Paragon, according to county, we don’t need a plan, because he says there’s no way it will be passed by the Senate.
I really try to respect you county, but then you go and post the most ludicrous and rude things. I know you’re provoked at times. But, other times - so not. (the above paragragh not being rude, per se) I do respect what you say you do. It’s too bad you can’t manage to convey what I believe is sensitivity across on this bb.
I said its not going to be passed by the Senate if no thought is put into it. That doesn’t mean there should be no thought. And i’ve never said we don’t need a plan. I think you made that part up by youyself for what reason I have no idea. I should be more sensative? Why there doesn’t seem to be any directed at me.
In the interest of ‘full disclosure’, here is a link to a video contained on an animal welfare site. The group is against horse slaughter. This video was taken in a horse slaughter house.
It is graphic. It shows three or four horses being killed, and the next step in a slaughter house. But that said, I believe it shows a very efficient and remarkably humane process. The horses pictured suffer for a very short time - a matter of seconds - and that’s the end of their awareness. I can see why the AVMA would support this method of killing. It is the same process that cattle go through.
Again, this video is graphic, and I think it’s a little sad (I’m not a fan of animals dying in ANY way, really) - but for those who can stomach it, I think it’s an eye-opener. After reading so much information about how horrifying it is in slaughter houses, I found this video to be a consolation.
That’s assuming that every horse will have a happy long life, with adequate veterinary and farrier care, and a caring, responsible home.
It’s simply irresponsible to end horse slaughter without a plan to accomodate 90K plus horses, each year - for the rest of their natural lives. That’s a lot of horses needing good homes - lots of horses that may have special needs, require an advanced rider/trainer, require expensive corrective shoeing, may not be suitable for particular disciplines, yatta yatta yatta.
I loathe people who take their dogs and cats to animal shelters. Loathe them. But I don’t want to outlaw animal shelters with the intent to “make” people more responsible for their pets or assume that all unwanted pets will be absorbed by rescues (already overburdened), the state, etc.
Not one entity or spokesperson or group has developed a comprehensive plan to handle a result of the ban. I assume Gail is having her 15 minutes of fame on the Hill right now - but for those of us who are more circumspect in our approach - we’re going to have our hands full and our wallets emptied when the politicians get done with their feel good legislation.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;1865040]
Regarding economic impact of a slaughter ban, as cited in the AHC propoganda above-
THe US economy makes more money if the horses are not killed, (in the form of vet care, board, farrier care, etc) than if they are killed and exported.[/QUOTE]
County is right. It’s not uncommon for the House to pass something less “thought out” simply because the reps saw the potential of political gain for voting yes – knowing that it wouldn’t pass in the Senate. If, in fact, there is no action plan for post ban (which has been claimed – without refute from a knowledgeable ban supporter) and it is poorly crafted, then it is likely that it won’t pass in the Senate. Unless, of course, it gets banded together with other laws that the good Senators have the inclination to approve :sigh:. Such is politics.
The good news, if it doesn’t get approved, is that the anti-slaughter folks will have learned alot, and can go back to the drawing board and recraft the language and an action plan, and maybe put forward something that can make everyone (well, rationale minds) happy.
If it does get approved, well then the lessons will be learned along the way.
Are you kidding me? You find this to be consolation? It shows a horse being bolted intentionally in the shoulder because it would not lift it’s head and then it struggles down in the knock box until he finally gets a good shot at it’s head and you call that humane? 
That is animal cruelty at it’s most simple level. If you did that to your own horse at your own farm, you would be prosecuted for abuse.
That video shows multiple stunnings and misses with struggling thrashing horses. If you think that is humane, you are definitely different than 99% of the people who have seen it who were appalled.
First off the slaughterhouse itself is not a viable option for the typical horse owner to dispose of an unwanted horse. The AUCTION is. An auction MAY OR MAY NOT have kill buyers.
I have been to auctions where kill buyers DO NOT buy every low priced unwanted horse. I have been to auctions where there were no kill buyers present and people bought the ‘unwanted’ horses and I’ve seen auctions where horses NO-SALED at opening bid of $50, $100 and the owners had to trailer them back home.
AND just how many records can be found directly from the slaughterhouse indicating that owners shipped their one or 2 horses directly to the plant? Just doesn’t happen in the norm.
Unwanted horses STILL exist AND ARE A PROBLEM even with the slaughterhouses we have. It should be a seperatly addressed issue and I wish both sides would just take it out of the equation.
Lets get down to the REAL nitty gritty on the subject. The process itself- is it truly humane and regulated properly?, is the industry of slaughtering horses in the best interests of the economy? and the best interests of the moral fabric of our society?
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;1865188]
Are you kidding me? You find this to be consolation? It shows a horse being bolted intentionally in the shoulder because it would not lift it’s head and then it struggles down in the knock box until he finally gets a good shot at it’s head and you call that humane? That is animal cruelty at it’s most simple level. If you did that to your own horse at your own farm, you would be prosecuted for abuse.
That video shows multiple stunnings and misses with struggling thrashing horses. If you think that is humane, you are definitely different than 99% of the people who have seen it who were appalled.[/QUOTE]
I was just going to say the same thing, how many whacks did that first horse take? I lost count. All of them took 2-3 EACH. They are supposed to be restrained and hit ONCE. That is why this is not a humane euthanasia method because it is HARD to hit them just once correctly. Their skulls are not cow skulls. No cruelty is acceptable just because it doesn’t last a long time.
BTW another point to reinterate… there used to be dozens of slaughterhouse in the not so distant past that would process horses. Guess what- there were still many unwanted horses and neglect cases- probably more than today in relation to the equine population. Chalk it up to increased owner education despite the longevity of horses almost doubling.
Contact the Humane Society and they can verify.
BTW another point to reinterate… there used to be dozens of slaughterhouse in the not so distant past that would process horses. Guess what- there were still many unwanted horses and neglect cases- probably more than today in relation to the equine population. Chalk it up to increased owner education despite the longevity of horses almost doubling. IT IS A SEPERATE ISSUE.
Contact the Humane Society and they can verify.
BTW another point to reinterate… there used to be dozens of slaughterhouse in the not so distant past that would process horses. Guess what- there were still many unwanted horses and neglect cases- probably more than today in relation to the equine population. Chalk it up to increased owner education despite the longevity of horses almost doubling. IT IS A SEPERATE ISSUE.
Contact the Humane Society and they can verify.
[QUOTE=Paragon;1865018]
Oh, excuse me for having a different experience from you. I’ll attempt to rectify this in the future. :rolleyes: Puhleez, indeed.[/QUOTE]
AH, but by your own words (which you conveniently did not address) you have not had a different experience. And my point was merely to point out that your personal experience, or that of anyone else, does not negate the opposite experience.
How about unless YOU can prove it’s NOT routine, we can not establish that it isn’t routine. Every pancake has 2 sides.
No, I think not. I am saying that since the industry has had far too much time to comply and has found every loophole (ie inspectors payment) they can exploit, I chose to not allow them to continue. How 'bout we agree to disagree?
Because euthenasia is performed by a licensed vet, generally at the horses’ home, without the trauma of being crammed onto a too small trailer with several horses not of his/her herd, usually at the end of a prod…then arriving at a plant which is not designed for horses. A captive bolt is handled by… what is the minimum requirement for that job? It’s not their aim from what I have seen from videos. And lest you say that that is not the norm… I find ONE miss unacceptable. My pov is not about cultural stigma, it’s about my personal opinion of what I consider humane.
Again, the majority are not “chronically ill, lame, aggressive, abused, or otherwise unsuitable for other purposes” per several studies. I’ll go find some for you. And you can keep your ‘trophy’. I am not here debating for the idea of “winning”, but to learn and educate. I find it sad that anyone would be here for the goal of “winning”
[QUOTE=Paragon;1865018]You have to have a plan for these things, and America has no plan. America is trying to pass feel-good legislation without an end solution. That’s idiocy, plain and simple. If we can devise a feasible plan for what to do with these horses, I’ll be happy to support the bill. But we can’t just pretend that everything will be magically better, and that people will come out of the woodwork to put forth their money saving horses that will ultimately be killed via veterinarian or bullet.
We need a plan, and that plan needs to be in place before legislation is passed.[/QUOTE]
What about the decline that has occurred since the 80’s that had no plan in place and has been largely inconsequential? Why ignore the obvious idea that more of the same will be enough to handle a similar increase in number? Why scrap the humane idea of banning slaughter for lack of a “plan” rather than get involved yourself and make the planning your personal goal? I just don’t get the mentality of “I’d rather argue why we shouldn’t do something than put that same energy to work creating an option we can all live with” or “There’s no plan so we should just keep slaughtering them”
The system is no differant for any other species of livestock. I could never get behind banning something or a plan thats for one species over another. If you sdtuff beef or pork in your mouth your supporting the slaughter system period. You can paint it so you beleive your not but reality says other wise.
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;1865188]
Are you kidding me? You find this to be consolation? It shows a horse being bolted intentionally in the shoulder because it would not lift it’s head and then it struggles down in the knock box until he finally gets a good shot at it’s head and you call that humane? That is animal cruelty at it’s most simple level. If you did that to your own horse at your own farm, you would be prosecuted for abuse.[/QUOTE]
It’s a far sight better than what people on horse forums have been purporting as ‘routine’ at these slaughter houses. Animals being hacked up while still alive, strung up while still thrashing… yes, it’s much better than that.
No, it’s not ideal. At all. It can be improved. It should be improved, for all livestock - not just the cuddly horses. I’m all for improvements, in case anyone has missed my dozens of posts on these threads.
Well, none of the horses in the slaughter videos I’ve seen (and I’ve seen a fair few over the past few days) were missing their eyes. boggles
Again, the majority are not “chronically ill, lame, aggressive, abused, or otherwise unsuitable for other purposes” per several studies. I’ll go find some for you. And you can keep your ‘trophy’. I am not here debating for the idea of “winning”, but to learn and educate. I find it sad that anyone would be here for the goal of “winning”
I’m certainly not here to win. Then again, I’m also not here to throw around sarcasm and snap at people who disagree with me, as many here sometimes do on a hot-button topic like this.
I just don’t get the mentality of “I’d rather argue why we shouldn’t do something than put that same energy to work creating an option we can all live with” or “There’s no plan so we should just keep slaughtering them”
Neither do I. So why are you and I both here, being jerks? I’m in favor of creating an option we can all live with. Hence, my desire for an end plan.
Not ideal? That’s an understatement…unrestrained thrashing horses, heads dodging the bolt gun, multiple boltings on every horse shown, cattle prods used to drive them into the knock box (did you miss that?), animal cruelty in the form of intentional bolting in the shoulder of the wild little buckskin…Oh Yeh…not ideal is a major understatement.
No I did not see any still alive being cut up but we know it happens from accounts of workers.
[QUOTE=county;1865226]
The system is no differant for any other species of livestock. I could never get behind banning something or a plan thats for one species over another. If you sdtuff beef or pork in your mouth your supporting the slaughter system period. You can paint it so you beleive your not but reality says other wise.[/QUOTE]
No, you CAN eat meat and not support horse slaughter. The industry is not so cut and dry- the same slaughtering methods are not equally applied to every consumable livestock. You should know that if you are in the farming industry.
First off the slaughterhouse itself is not a viable option for the typical horse owner to dispose of an unwanted horse. The AUCTION is. An auction MAY OR MAY NOT have kill buyers.
I have been to auctions where kill buyers DO NOT buy every low priced unwanted horse. I have been to auctions where there were no kill buyers present and people bought the ‘unwanted’ horses and I’ve seen auctions where horses NO-SALED at opening bid of $50, $100 and the owners had to trailer them back home.
AND just how many records can be found directly from the slaughterhouse indicating that owners shipped their one or 2 horses directly to the plant? Just doesn’t happen in the norm.
Unwanted horses STILL exist AND ARE A PROBLEM even with the slaughterhouses we have. It should be a seperatly addressed issue and I wish both sides would just take it out of the equation.
Lets get down to the REAL nitty gritty on the subject. The process itself- is it truly humane and regulated properly?, is the industry of slaughtering horses in the best interests of the economy? and the best interests of the moral fabric of our society?
Well ya I guess I could eat meat and still be anti slaughter but I’m not. And yes I do have that right like it or not. The same slaughter methods are not equally applied? Such as the 3 plants i’ve worked in were the same. The 1000’s of animals I’ve helped haul and unload were the same.
County, I know for a fact that cattle,pigs and chickens are slaughtered in a way designed for their species to be humane. People like Tempe Grandin have made huge improvements in their handling to reduce their stress and to greatly reduce bad stunnings by conveyors that lift cattle off their feet and keep them still. Certainly some are not stunned correctly all the time and that is bad…I’m not arguing with that but NOTHING has been done for horses…nothing…because NO ONE in the process cares. :mad: You yourself have stated that the “kill floor” for horses needs improvement and you have been in many slaughterhouses from what you have told us. People get on here and pay lip service to coming up with some form of humane slaughter for horses but I have not heard even one reasonable suggestion from a pro slaughter person of how to actually do it.
I have said before and I’ll repeat…I buy my meat from local farmers that are processed at a small local butcher…I do not support factory farming or factory slaughter so please refrain from calling my a hyprocrite. I’d love to see all meat animals die instantly and painlessly and am supporting humane farming the best that I can.
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