When To Call In A new Vet For Second Opinion?

My 23 year old mare has been "off for the entire Summer.

5/20-30th starts favoring her left front.

5/30 farrier examines mare finds heat in left pastern no sign of abcess, regular shoes and bute for one week.

Vet takes x-ray and finds P1,P2 & P3 in left “behind”.
Other leg OK. Prescribes Previcox-60 days.

6/5 farrier comes back and puts new 3 degree wedge
shoe on with leather pad. Looks at x-ray before hand.

6/5-6/26 No better.

6/30 Cortisone shot into the coffin joint.

6/30-7/4 hand walking and
mare is loose inn round pen with feed and hay.

During July, after the injection she seemed about 85% of the way to “normal”. I still was not riding her with any regularity.
Vet takes new x-rays

8/1 mare gets cellulitus, immediately put on 10 days of antibiotic and 5 days clay poltice.

8/3 Vet brings in new farrier to put 3 degree wedge shoe on, the first 3 degree wedge by regular farrier really only gave her about one degree. Can’t work her because of the cellulitus so we can’t see if the new 3 degree wedge helps.

8/25 mare is still off, but now tripping on both front feet, right rear leg, swelling and heat gone from cellulitus but is now using the leg in an odd manner, Not normal.

8/31 contact vet, tell mare is still off now tripping etc. Wants to test for Lyme. Seems possible, we are in central Massachusetts.

Now the question. Is vet bringing up Lyme because she has no other ideas? Is it time to tactfully bring in a lameness vet?

This is a 10 month “new” boarding situation for me. I know the vet from my previous barn. I like her. The owner of the barn loves this vet. She is not a lameness vet. I do not want to rock the boat. In my opinion this has gone on for too long. Bad enough I was crying a river at the barn last week - very professional!

Sounds like more than time. There’s no shame in getting a second (or third) opinion.

No practitioner worth their salt should be offended by an owner seeking a second opinion. Particularly in a case which does not appear to be moving towards a successful resolution at present.

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8303964]
No practitioner worth their salt should be offended by an owner seeking a second opinion. Particularly in a case which does not appear to be moving towards a successful resolution at present.[/QUOTE]

Agree.

I’ve brought in 2nd and even 3rd opinions for my horse who has very complicated health issues and I did it whenever I saw fit. It’s my dime. And for the record I think my vets respected me more for getting multiple opinions (I have AWESOME vets).

So if you want to, and it sounds like you do, do it!
Good luck!

I have worked for many different doctors in the past. The only doctors who get offended by second opinions are the bad ones. Good doctors are always happy to have another set of eyes. if I ever run across a doctor who is offended by a second opinion request I run like the wind.

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8303939]
My 23 year old mare has been "off for the entire Summer.

5/20-30th starts favoring her left front.

5/30 farrier examines mare finds heat in left pastern no sign of abcess, regular shoes and bute for one week.

Vet takes x-ray and finds P1,P2 & P3 in left “behind”.
Other leg OK. Prescribes Previcox-60 days.

6/5 farrier comes back and puts new 3 degree wedge
shoe on with leather pad. Looks at x-ray before hand.

6/5-6/26 No better.

6/30 Cortisone shot into the coffin joint.

6/30-7/4 hand walking and
mare is loose inn round pen with feed and hay.

During July, after the injection she seemed about 85% of the way to “normal”. I still was not riding her with any regularity.
Vet takes new x-rays

8/1 mare gets cellulitus, immediately put on 10 days of antibiotic and 5 days clay poltice.

8/3 Vet brings in new farrier to put 3 degree wedge shoe on, the first 3 degree wedge by regular farrier really only gave her about one degree. Can’t work her because of the cellulitus so we can’t see if the new 3 degree wedge helps.

8/25 mare is still off, but now tripping on both front feet, right rear leg, swelling and heat gone from cellulitus but is now using the leg in an odd manner, Not normal.

8/31 contact vet, tell mare is still off now tripping etc. Wants to test for Lyme. Seems possible, we are in central Massachusetts.

Now the question. Is vet bringing up Lyme because she has no other ideas? Is it time to tactfully bring in a lameness vet?

This is a 10 month “new” boarding situation for me. I know the vet from my previous barn. I like her. The owner of the barn loves this vet. She is not a lameness vet. I do not want to rock the boat. In my opinion this has gone on for too long. Bad enough I was crying a river at the barn last week - very professional![/QUOTE]

I am in a similar situation and just recently told my vet, very politely, that I wanted to take my horse to UW for a good work up; I just said I needed some answers and wanted one day, one place where I could have the best chance of figuring this out. Being a university teaching hospital, they have treatment options at a very affordable price.

Instead of another farm call vet, do you have access to a university or other large clinic to haul in and do a good workup? I find I tend to get more concrete information that way vs back and forth at the barn.

I would agree that no vet is perfect and a good vet shouldn’t let egos come before getting a horse well. It’s a lot in how you approach it, and then once it’s out there, move on because you’re not responsible for how a vet responds to your needs for another opinion.

You should call in a second opinion whenever you think you need one.

I’ve learned this the hard way twice until I finally decided to follow my gut.

Just this month we had a horse that was nqr front left. Our regular vet was away so another very capable vet who I respect came to look instead. Said it’s probably an abscess/issues with her shoeing so treat as such. I understood why she said that, but my gut just felt differently. So I followed up with my regular vet. Sure enough, suspenaory.

The first vet wasnt wrong. We changed her shoes and it did help, and there were other odd symptoms that did not fit with the suspensory. But those are all secondary and we need to treat the suspensory first, which we didn’t find with the first vet.

As others said, good vets will not be offended about a second opinion. Great vets will work together to find an even better answer.

In most circumstances, I like to tell my vet that I am still worried and want a specialist opinion. Then, I ask my vet for a list of several specialists who they recommend. I may or may not chose someone from their list. My daughter is my vet these days. She is always happy to encourage me to go to a specialist. If things aren’t going well, she doesn’t want to be the one who I blame.

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;8303964]
No practitioner worth their salt should be offended by an owner seeking a second opinion. Particularly in a case which does not appear to be moving towards a successful resolution at present.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

I also feel like many are willing to admit when they are running out of ideas/too far in to see the light/don’t have that particular skill set and will encourage you to seek other opinions.

My vet has cultivated many professional relationships with vets outside of his practice that make a network of vets that he has in his arsenal when a horse he sees has a problem he can’t fix.

Remember that “rising tides lift all boats”, meaning that one vets success fixing a horse can improve everyone’s career. That is, if the referring vet has a realistic view of his/her own skill set and limitations and is willing and able to maintain professional relationships with other vets, clinics, and vet schools in the area.

If your vet is unwilling to admit that she might have run out of ideas, or that it might be time to see a lameness specialist because all she has left is Lyme disease… you may need to find yourself a different veterinarian.

I’d like to point out the symptoms of Lyme as laid out by thehorse.com: http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10200/lyme-disease-in-horses

Your horse has been lame for over 3 months, and although a joint injection improved the horse, it didn’t make it sound. The horse had heat in the pastern but no stated swelling.- Lyme is often episodic with bouts of lameness/heat/swelling. Three and a half months completely off would be one long episode.

Don’t worry about the right hind (at least not yet), depending upon the initial injury, how much swelling and tissue damage there was, and how much the horse actually favored the right hind… I am not surprised that the horse is still moving funny. I’m surprised that the horse wasn’t allowed to work despite the cellulitis. The best way to dissipate swelling is to get the horse moving (as the worse the swelling/tissue damage gets, the more likely that it can become chronic lymphangitis due to scar tissue buildup). My mare kicked herself, blew up with cellulitis (she saw a vet within the first 24 hr), the swelling went down within 48 hours of the vet visit and still managed to be off for a month. No bone chips, no tendon/ligament injuries, and no lingering infection; just a suspected undefined bone bruise and a little bit of what I call “princess syndrome” lol. With an older horse (just like any older being), they are more at risk for muscle deterioration when out of work. So compound that with significantly favoring one leg and you have the makings for muscle wasting on one hind leg (in theory).

What worries me most is that it doesn’t sound like this vet is taking the horse into consideration at all.

At 23 the horse is more likely to have things like ringbone, sidebone, and arthritis. Unless you are new to this horse and/or the first farrier really began to change the way her foot looked before she went lame, I’m highly skeptical that what the vet saw on the x-ray was something “new” to this horse. There could have even been a reason that that the horse was shod this way (LLD? the leg with the wedge was in fact the longer leg?). Any farrier worth his weight is going to trim and shoe the leg, not just the hoof or everything below the fetlock (just because you corrected p1 through p3 pathology doesn’t mean you didn’t create a bigger problem higher up the leg).

I’m confused at how the leap from “moving previously injured RH oddly and tripping on now altered front feet” to “neurologic, must be lyme” happened. I understand that Lyme is prevalent in MA but her symptoms don’t even line up.

Anyway, although your vet may be doing the best with the resources she has, she does not sound like she has the skill set you require to resolve the matter with your mare.

I would seek an alternative opinion and look into having the wedge removed and have the trim/shoeing job reflect what her previous farrier provided to see if that resolves the tripping.

There are enough quality veterinary resources in MA that you should not limit yourself to just one vet, especially if that vet cannot provide all of the resources needed at the level of competency needed. (you don’t expect a lameness vet to do abdominal surgery on your cryptorchid colt, or remove an impaction colic- despite his/her education on how to do so.)

that got long… sorry.

ETA: just remember that your responsibility is to the welfare of your horse, not to your vet’s feelings.

Thank you everyone for the input so far.
Mycolorfuladdiction - my gut feeling is the vet does not know what to do next. I’m not saying she is a bad vet, only that lameness might not be her specialty.

There were x-rays done that showed Left Fore, p1, p2, p3, “behind” also low ring bone - so arthritis. She did have low heels + long toe so that along with being “behind” was the reason for the 3 degree wedge.

What I would really like to do is have farrier put her in a normal shoe and ask a lameness vet, (I have uses for Hock, Stiffle and SI injections in the past) come out and lake a look.
I will just have to bite the bullet as far as speaking with the barn owner.
In her eyes, this original vet is very good, but again as this is a fairly new boarding situation, I am being a little cautious with trowing my weight around.

I must include that there is one horse also boarded here that often has “lameness” issues and has never gotten much better… guess I have to put my big girl pants on.

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;8305604]
Thank you everyone for the input so far.
Mycolorfuladdiction - my gut feeling is the vet does not know what to do next. I’m not saying she is a bad vet, only that lameness might not be her specialty.

There were x-rays done that showed Left Fore, p1, p2, p3, “behind” also low ring bone - so arthritis. She did have low heels + long toe so that along with being “behind” was the reason for the 3 degree wedge.

What I would really like to do is have farrier put her in a normal shoe and ask a lameness vet, (I have uses for Hock, Stiffle and SI injections in the past) come out and lake a look.
I will just have to bite the bullet as far as speaking with the barn owner.
In her eyes, this original vet is very good, but again as this is a fairly new boarding situation, I am being a little cautious with trowing my weight around.

I must include that there is one horse also boarded here that often has “lameness” issues and has never gotten much better… guess I have to put my big girl pants on.[/QUOTE]

So the horse has low ringbone and the vet didn’t suggest supportive shoeing?

Shoeing changes should be gradual and heading towards protecting and supporting the injured joint. It sounds like she wanted a “quick fix” and may have inadvertently made things worse.

I’m sure she doesn’t know what to do next, everyone cannot be good at everything. Being able to be realistic about what you excel at and your short comings is almost more important than what you are good at and what your limitations are. She is valuable for what she is good at as a vet, but when she begins to start straying into areas she is not good in she can become a hindrance to the successful resolution of the ailment (lameness in this case). What she’s doing is more or less “bad form”, not “bad vet”.

I agree with your plan of action, although I’m confused as to why the barn owner needs to be involved beyond a cursory “heads-up” that a vet is coming? It’s none of her business as to why you have decided to have another vet look at the mare. If “Dr. X is a lameness vet and mare is currently lame” isn’t an acceptable answer, just shut down the conversation. Tell her that “although you appreciate the original vet’s expertise, since you aren’t currently interested in perusing the Lyme disease differential you would like to seek an outside opinion from a lameness expert”. And if THAT isn’t an acceptable response, then you need a new BO, lol.

Either way: Don’t fear the big girl pants! They’re those sweatpant jeans… that come in “fleece lined” for winter :wink: