Where are all the 3'6'' A/O Hunters?

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=APirateLooksAtForty;7886294]
I don’t mind if you pick on me … Pick away! I’m tired of showing up at some of our older more historic shows and being one of 3 or so 3’6ers (and thus having to combine with the 3’3ers) especially when one of the people doing the 3’3 is a lifelong competitor with a dead-on eye riding a winning first year green horse. That’s just one example. I also don’t think it’s fair for the 3’6 competitors to have to show against those in the 3’3 … The striding, effort, etc that are required are totally different. I know this is not a popular opinion on here and I knew it wouldn’t be … The majority clearly like the division or it wouldn’t have been created. However, am I the only one chiming in here that actually jumps 3’6?? Think of it from our perspective.[/QUOTE]

I guess I don’t get the attitude that if you are showing at 3’6, you’re clearly better than those who aren’t. And again, who are you to decide that the person doing the 3’3 who “is a lifelong competitor with a dead-on eye riding a winning first year green horse” should therefore be doing the 3’6 instead of 3’3? Why do you get to decide that for her?

I don’t understand your argument regarding “The striding, effort, etc that are required” being a detriment to those doing the higher divisions - I wasn’t aware that the distances are moved for the lower heights, and I’ve never heard of horses making a bigger effort over smaller jumps, so you lost me there.

If anything isn’t fair about combining the divisions, it would be to those showing over the lower heights (all other things such as quality of horse, quality of movement, quality of jump being equal), so I’m not sure why you are so upset to have to compete against them. You should have the advantage in that your horse gets to show off over the bigger jumps.

[APirateLooksAtForty]

You don’t think the 3’6 riders, as a whole, are better than the group at 3’3? Honey get thee to a computer pronto and watch the trips at indoors … Most of those 3’6 riders could be professionals in a lot of programs. And there are certainly competitors in the 3’3 division who are that slick … Those are the ones who IMHO should be moving up!

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=APirateLooksAtForty;7886346]
You don’t think the 3’6 riders, as a whole, are better than the group at 3’3? Honey get thee to a computer pronto and watch the trips at indoors … Most of those 3’6 riders could be professionals in a lot of programs. And there are certainly competitors in the 3’3 division who are that slick … Those are the ones who IMHO should be moving up![/QUOTE]

I never said anything about which group is better than the other, because I don’t care. It’s really not the point. The point is being supportive of your “peers”, as you referred to them in your original post right before you belittled them and implied that they are somehow lesser than you because they compete over jumps that are three inches lower than the ones over which you compete.

And no, I don’t judge the skill of a rider by the height at which they jump.

It’s possible that the very top winners in the 3’6 amateur divisions are the winners because they have a boatload of money and buy the best horses in the country and keep them with the best trainers in the country, who also keep those very top horses tuned up by schooling them regularly and showing them in one or more open division.

Maybe those in the 3’3 division are more likely to be doing more of the work themselves, and could very well be much better riders than the winners in very tippy top competitions in the 3’6 division (I’m thinking of Nickelodeon right now as an example of the former).

Again - why do you think that you get to decide who should move up just by watching someone ride a course at a horse show? You have no idea what else might be going on in that person’s life that could be the reason for her decision.

[Soaponarope]

Have to say just because a rider is near pro doesn’t mean their horse is ready for the 3’6. Life is complicated especially for AOs who have school, work, kids, budgets, and lord knows what else. Not all AO horses are packers.

On a more positive note I noticed that USEF is proposing a new championship for AOs based upon the junior hunter model. I think all who support this need to write USEF to assure them it is very much wanted:yes:

[HunterMolly]

[QUOTE=eclipse;7886305]

• stop spreading these classes out over an entire week - ammies generally work for a living, and it’s frustrating to not be able to go and show in 1 division on a weekend![/QUOTE]

This. I have a horse who will be competing in the first year greens this year, and that I have shown in the 3foot adults for the past year during her 3’3 pre green year. In Texas, and in most places in Zone 7, the 3’3 and the 3’6 A/Os run during the week. It’s is very frustrating as a working ammy not to be able to move up and regularly compete at a higher height.

[snaffle635]

Agree with many points already mentioned. Here’s another consideration.

Everything kids do is associated with moving “up”. Every year, they are in a new grade at school. They move from junior varsity to varsity. From Brownies to Girl Scouts. Moving from Children’s to Juniors is the same. Even the name “Children’s Hunters” is enough to make a teenager want to move into the Juniors.

Adults don’t live in the same world. We don’t mind plateauing. Plus there’s an element of fear that we didn’t have in our younger years.

[Goldie_locks]

The horses that do the 3’6" + up these days are few and far between and cost $100,000 and up.

It’s not like 30 years ago in the US you had the OTTB horses, bold riders and lesser cost horse shows. The winning round was much different too…

Just watch this.

1982 Maclay -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj6hh5w4Afk

2014 Maclay -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPRqIyU1riE

In life things change regardless what we like

[ChelseaR]

The trouble with telling people to bring their own green horse along is not so much that they don’t want to or that they are afraid to work for it.
The real issue I think is that it is beyond the ability of most amateurs (or most riders in general) to train a horse to do something they have never done. Riders who have previously ridden 3’6" classes can and do often bring along their own green horses. Riders who have never really ridden or shown above 2’9"/3" are unlikely to be successful trying to move a green horse up to 3’6" for the first time.
Green horses need riders who give them confidence. The one horse owner who has never shown or ridden much above 3" is unlikely to be able to provide that confidence or level of polish needed for the A/O hunters without a lot of trainer rides (which defeats the purpose).
That same rider might be able to confidently train a horse up to 2’9"/3’ but the gap between 3’ and 3’6" in the hunter ring is a lot bigger than just 6" of height.
The width and the distances also have an impact as does the smaller tolerance for error and often higher level of polish expected.

[Goldie_locks]

[QUOTE=ChelseaR;7886470]
The trouble with telling people to bring their own green horse along is not so much that they don’t want to or that they are afraid to work for it.
The real issue I think is that it is beyond the ability of most amateurs (or most riders in general) to train a horse to do something they have never done. Riders who have previously ridden 3’6" classes can and do often bring along their own green horses. Riders who have never really ridden or shown above 2’9"/3" are unlikely to be successful trying to move a green horse up to 3’6" for the first time.
Green horses need riders who give them confidence. The one horse owner who has never shown or ridden much above 3" is unlikely to be able to provide that confidence or level of polish needed for the A/O hunters without a lot of trainer rides (which defeats the purpose).
That same rider might be able to confidently train a horse up to 2’9"/3’ but the gap between 3’ and 3’6" in the hunter ring is a lot bigger than just 6" of height.
The width and the distances also have an impact as does the smaller tolerance for error and often higher level of polish expected.[/QUOTE]

Right!!! And chipping at 2’9" goes a lot better than chipping at 3’6"

[Madeline]

I really can’t believe all the fuss over 3". Take out a ruler. Do you think there is a horse in the world who can tell the difference?

[whbar158]

Honestly this whole the division isn’t filling because it is too expensive to buy a winning 3’6" horse, umm well go find yourself a 5k horse that is athletic and start showing because with such few entries you will be winning the 3’6" classes. Everyone use to have to jump 3’6" most horses can actually jump around a 3’6" course, can some do it much better? Sure but many can do it just fine as well and if no one is showing in it then no you don’t need to spend 150k on a horse to show in the A/O’s not everyone wanting to show in the A/O’s is aiming to go to indoors/devon etc. I have shown 3’6" on my only so scopey 15.1 hh QH. For him the 3" did make a difference and he really did better at 3’3" (part of it was the lines being pulled out) so I would have loved that division but I still tried the 3’6" we ended up crashing once but not really due to the height, he was being a jerk that day but it freaked me out enough to want to back down for awhile.

But yes it drives me crazy that so many people don’t think a horse can really jump around 3’6" and look ok doing it. Not every horse showing at 3’6" needs to be Devon quality.

[Mayaty02]

has already been said but I think the nature of adults riding and showing is what dictates how many do the 3’3" instead of the 3’6". Someone said it perfectly, most adults don’t really care to “move up”, whereas a juniors career is all about moving up every year.

Also, I know many adults, myself included, who while I did 3’6" as a junior, I have no desire to do it as an adult, heck I don’t even jump anymore, because I don’t feel my eye is good enough and let’s face it, we over 40s don’t BOUNCE like we used to.

In addition, many adults I know have very limited time to ride, between family, work, commuting etc. Highly competitive juniors are typically singularly directed to spend all their time riding (with the exception of school).

And last, the junior career is meant to cap off in the big eq (in most folks dreaming) and that is 3’6", so there is a rush to get there early enough to have a few years to get competitive and go to the finals. You don’t see any other type of motivation for adults to do the same.

[EAY]

[QUOTE=Goldie locks;7886462]
The horses that do the 3’6" + up these days are few and far between and cost $100,000 and up.

It’s not like 30 years ago in the US you had the OTTB horses, bold riders and lesser cost horse shows. The winning round was much different too…

Just watch this.

1982 Maclay -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj6hh5w4Afk

2014 Maclay -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPRqIyU1riE

In life things change regardless what we like :)[/QUOTE]

Not to quibble or derail, but that was not the winning round from 1982. You can see Peter’s ride at 4:19 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VvNxHMT5fI

To me the the most striking difference appears to be riding in the Garden versus the Alltech Arena - just a completely different experience.

[Blinky]

Look, I want to be competitive just not get around. If you look at the AO 3’6" riders that do well, most of them do not work (so have more time to ride) and have a boatload of money for trainers and horses. This has driven the cost of competitive 3’6’ horses up. More power to them but that’s why you see the same names over and over.

Most of the AO classes in Texas are during the week. Kind of hard for a working person to do them on a regular basis.

Lastly, don’t make it out that its soooo easy to buy a young horse and turn it into a AO 3’6" horse. I have seen this not work out more often then it has!

[Duckz]

[QUOTE=whbar158;7886564]
But yes it drives me crazy that so many people don’t think a horse can really jump around 3’6" and look ok doing it. Not every horse showing at 3’6" needs to be Devon quality.[/QUOTE]

I personally think it would be a hoot to take my draft cross in the high A/O division. It would make for some great pictures at Upperville, and heck, with entries that low who needs a clean change? :winkgrin:

[REH]

[QUOTE=eclipse;7886305]
I will give a few reasons why I think numbers are low :

-Nice 3ft6 hunters are ridiculously expensive
-let non owners show in the 3ft6 classes ! It’s ridiculous that you have to own the horse (see point one!). I know quite a few ammies that are held back, not due to they are more comfortable at a lower height but they plain cannot afford to buy

• stop spreading these classes out over an entire week - ammies generally work for a living, and it’s frustrating to not be able to go and show in 1 division on a weekend![/QUOTE]

No one is keeping them from showing–ammies can show a horse in the performance hunters if they like.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7886231]
I will never understand this type of attitude towards fellow amateurs. It’s going to appear that I am picking on you specifically because your post is here in this thread right now, but there have been many people who have posted similar comments in the past, so my post is really a general reply to the same sentiment that has been expressed many, many times on this board.[/QUOTE]

Just some context for the rest of you, reading along. My post is with respect to, “Hey, why can’t (working) Adult” buy a 3’6" prospect and bring it along?

IMO, when you look and the time and money realities of this you hit a wall.

If Working Rider does this herself, she picked a pretty good athlete for her wild young animal (because it does need to have that to do the A/Os in style). Chances are she bought tall, pretty and good-jumping. And she was competiting with pros/investment clients who are buying those 4-5 year olds. So a good horse will cost some money. Now can she afford to buy the animal that has the great mind on top of all that great body? She’ll need that because, again, she bought an athletic, untrained animal and the plan is to do it herself, maybe riding 4-5 days a week without help.

Keep in mind that making up an A/O horse and making up one that will pack a kid or scared/casual adult around a course of fences a foot lower aren’t equivalent projects. They aren’t the same horses as babies.

Or

A/O DIYer buys the prospect and help. Once she has paid the trainer for, say, 2 years, what’s the cost of the horse? Getting right up there, right? And what horse did she ride while all her money was going into the investment horse? How did she keep fit, brave and accurate all that time? And wow, that’a a lot of time while paying some bills…. which equals a lot of risk.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=whbar158;7886564]
Honestly this whole the division isn’t filling because it is too expensive to buy a winning 3’6" horse, umm well go find yourself a 5k horse that is athletic and start showing because with such few entries you will be winning the 3’6" classes. Everyone use to have to jump 3’6" most horses can actually jump around a 3’6" course, can some do it much better? Sure but many can do it just fine as well and if no one is showing in it then no you don’t need to spend 150k on a horse to show in the A/O’s not everyone wanting to show in the A/O’s is aiming to go to indoors/devon etc. I have shown 3’6" on my only so scopey 15.1 hh QH. For him the 3" did make a difference and he really did better at 3’3" (part of it was the lines being pulled out) so I would have loved that division but I still tried the 3’6" we ended up crashing once but not really due to the height, he was being a jerk that day but it freaked me out enough to want to back down for awhile.

But yes it drives me crazy that so many people don’t think a horse can really jump around 3’6" and look ok doing it. Not every horse showing at 3’6" needs to be Devon quality.[/QUOTE]

It costs as much to feed-- and train-- that “might win if all the stars line up and the Trust Funders don’t show up” horse as it does the competitive one. Are you really suggesting that folks poor the same money into the bad horse as the good horse?

I think that argument can and does sorta fly with the dressage crowd. It won’t would the A/O crowd, for some good reasons in each case.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Blinky;7886702]

Lastly, don’t make it out that its soooo easy to buy a young horse and turn it into a AO 3’6" horse. I have seen this not work out more often then it has![/QUOTE]
Logically speaking, if it was as easy to buy a young horse and turn it into a good AO 3’6" horse like some of the others have implied then they would not cost so much to buy, because everyone would have one.

I understand the frustration of a division not filling. I do not get the contempt for people happily showing at a height they like or why that makes other snarl and insist they should want to move up.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Madeline;7886513]
I really can’t believe all the fuss over 3". Take out a ruler. Do you think there is a horse in the world who can tell the difference?[/QUOTE]

The fuss isn’t over 3’. But add 6" to that and you have a horse (plus a rider) that actually have to jump off the ground to clear a fence, not just take it in stride. Go 6" in the other direction, down to 2’6", and you are right… the horse doesn’t care. In fact, if you want to teach a horse to get slopping with his “measuring tape”/front end, go ahead and lower the jumps below 3’.

The “actually jumping” thing takes more skill than does the “just lift up your legs out of stride” thing. And it takes more skill on the rider’s part, just to be clear.